Turbo: GS-R or LS

[Teggy Pwnage]

I know this has been posted a million times, but what would be the best to turbo? Isn't the GS-R at 8 psi the same as an LS at 12 psi? And ins't vtec better.

I know im getting an Integra with a costom turbo kit, hondata, intercooler, and all the extras, but I still haven't made up my mind on the LS or the GS-R. Please help me!

And would a GS-R with a well tunned hondata and turbo setup at 8psi, get 250whp? Without upgraded internals? and would this be mildly safe?

[Polygon]

The LS, no question. Already at a lower compression ratio. That is why you might see higher gains from less PSI on the GS-R. However, play it safe and go with lower compression. At higher compression there is less room for error and the engine will be VERY high strung. I have heard that Vtec and Turbos don't play well together, but I am not sure, just what I've heard.

You should be able to run 8 PSI intercooled on the stock LS engine no problem. However, I don't know if you will be making 250HP to the wheels, and that is very unlikely. You can only expect about 10 HP max per PSI on a stock Integra.

[turbo2nr]

damm it polygon u beat me to the punch again....
i second what you just said i was gona type the same idea..
1

[Teggy Pwnage]

So I could run 8psi daily and boost to about 10psi for racing? that would bring me to about 240 at the crank and 215-220 at the wheels on an LS?

And with a upgraded bottom end I could easily see 250whp right?

There is just something about the vtec that turns me on though.

[turbo2nr]

250whp is hard you really need to tune the hell out of your car to see that hp, i will getimate about 210 if you lucky. more likely 190whp, if you have proper fuel managment you can see 250hp.
1

[Teggy Pwnage]

for that I would rather get a GS-R and run 4-6psi and get more hp out of that, and upgrade the internals down the road. Wouldn't that be as safe as an LS with 8psi?

[turbo2nr]

you would get less hp out of a gsr with 4-6 psi then a ls with 8psi, the ls with 8psi will make more hp and same psi, l.s lower compression and 2.0l gsr hi compression and 1.8l, the ls is a better motor to turbo
1

[boosted331]

Originally Posted by Polygon

The LS, no question. Already at a lower compression ratio. That is why you might see higher gains from less PSI on the GS-R. However, play it safe and go with lower compression.

The compression difference between the LS and the GSR is 8 tenths of a point (9.2:1 vs. 10:1), 10:1 isn't a ton of compression. If he's running hondata, and has it tuned well, there is no reason that his motor can't run very well with 10:1 compression. In fact, JE makes 9.8:1 pistons designed for turbo cars, the added compression will make the motor more responsive off boost and it will spool quicker.

Originally Posted by Polygon

At higher compression there is less room for error and the engine will be VERY high strung. I have heard that Vtec and Turbos don't play well together, but I am not sure, just what I've heard.

I agree that with high compression there is less room for error, but he has plans for a good EMS (hondata) and provided he takes it to a good tuner, he will have no problems. I know a guy who lives in Arkansas, has a 10:1 compression 84.5MM GSR, runs 14 pounds of boost on pump gas all day long, and made 414 WHP like that. It's all in the tune! For the vtec head and turbos bit, that's probably some misinformation you heard on the internet. Yes, having lots of duration for a turbo motor is bad, lots of overlap is bad. But the stock B16, GSR, CTR, or ITR cams are simply not big enough to cause such great overlap that you get a loss of power. Everybody on here says to stay away from vtec like it's the devil, saying overlap is bad. But, think about it, if overlap was bad, how come people with Supras, DSM's, and SR20DET's are running HKS cams with 272 degrees of duration, and making big power with em? Those cams are a lot bigger than stock honda vtec cams, and HKS sells them only for turbo motors. The vtec head simply flows a LOT better than the non vtec head, and you will make a lot more power with it. I don't even know how the "vtec doesn't work with turbo" bit started in the first place.

Originally Posted by Polygon

You should be able to run 8 PSI intercooled on the stock LS engine no problem. However, I don't know if you will be making 250HP to the wheels, and that is very unlikely. You can only expect about 10 HP max per PSI on a stock Integra.

Hell, there are people running 14 pounds of boost on a stock LS motor, but you would see a lot more power out of a GSR. Depending on weather or not he has to pass emissions, he could make a ton of power. Hell, i've seen a GSR-swapped hatch with a drag gen 3 kit (only change to the kit was upgraded to a tial 38MM gate, doesn't have much to do with power production anyways) and hondata make 325 WHP @ 12 psi, stock block, on pump gas. I think you know what my choice is!

[Teggy Pwnage]

I agree with you, boosted331. But everyone on this forum says go LS. I think I will get a GS-R. Thanks for your input.

[boosted331]

If you already have an LS though, I wouldn't bother swapping motors, I'd just do the LS/vtec conversion. They make dowel pins for the conversion now so you don't have to worry about drilling anything, and it will make a lot more power than just an LS motor.

[Polygon]

Originally Posted by boosted331

The compression difference between the LS and the GSR is 8 tenths of a point (9.2:1 vs. 10:1), 10:1 isn't a ton of compression. If he's running hondata, and has it tuned well, there is no reason that his motor can't run very well with 10:1 compression. In fact, JE makes 9.8:1 pistons designed for turbo cars, the added compression will make the motor more responsive off boost and it will spool quicker.

That is true; the higher compression will make the engine more responsive in vac. However; most turbo-charged cars from the factory run between 7.8:1 and 9:1 compression. There is a reason for that. I don't care how good your fuel management system is and I don't care how well tuned your car is at a 10:1 compression ratio you're playing with fire if you're running on pump gas. Even if you are running 93 octane gas stations sometimes get some bad fuel. At a 10:1 compression ratio if you get some bad gas the detonation will be bad enough to crack a piston, snap a rod, or snap a valve. With good tuning and fuel management I would say you're pretty safe if you're running strictly on 100 octane fuel and up, and I am not talking 93 octane with some octane booster.

Originally Posted by boosted331

I agree that with high compression there is less room for error, but he has plans for a good EMS (hondata) and provided he takes it to a good tuner, he will have no problems. I know a guy who lives in Arkansas, has a 10:1 compression 84.5MM GSR, runs 14 pounds of boost on pump gas all day long, and made 414 WHP like that. It's all in the tune! For the vtec head and turbos bit, that's probably some misinformation you heard on the internet. Yes, having lots of duration for a turbo motor is bad, lots of overlap is bad. But the stock B16, GSR, CTR, or ITR cams are simply not big enough to cause such great overlap that you get a loss of power. Everybody on here says to stay away from vtec like it's the devil, saying overlap is bad. But, think about it, if overlap was bad, how come people with Supras, DSM's, and SR20DET's are running HKS cams with 272 degrees of duration, and making big power with em? Those cams are a lot bigger than stock honda vtec cams, and HKS sells them only for turbo motors. The vtec head simply flows a LOT better than the non vtec head, and you will make a lot more power with it. I don't even know how the "vtec doesn't work with turbo" bit started in the first place.

Either you're friend is very lucky or you're bullshitting me. All the people I know running 10:1 compression on a turbo-charged engine are running it as a race only setup. Also, at 14PSI you're buddy had to have swapped his internals or his is begging to put a big hole in the side of his engine. As for the Vtec comment, I am no Vtec expert; I simply post in here because I do know about forced induction. That is why I said that it was only what I'd heard. So if you have experience otherwise I would trust you as you probably know a lot more about Vtec than I do.

Originally Posted by boosted331

Hell, there are people running 14 pounds of boost on a stock LS motor, but you would see a lot more power out of a GSR. Depending on weather or not he has to pass emissions, he could make a ton of power. Hell, i've seen a GSR-swapped hatch with a drag gen 3 kit (only change to the kit was upgraded to a tial 38MM gate, doesn't have much to do with power production anyways) and hondata make 325 WHP @ 12 psi, stock block, on pump gas. I think you know what my choice is!

Yeah, that is why I said that he could do 8PSI intercooled no problem. However; at 14PSI I am sure some of them are smart enough to be changing their internals. I would still go with the LS if you want this car to be streetable. Running 10:1 compression is risky and if something goes wrong you'll be out an engine.

[tran_nsx]

gsr w/ turbo at 8 psi


ls w/ turbo at 10 psi


dyno's don't lie. ls, enough said.

[XixGenuinexiX]

their both running on different psi, i'm sure b18c1 could run on 10psi without detonation if the person knew what he was doing. Therefore i say B18c1 if your going to tune properly, and LS if you want to be safe. Plus the turbo kits you shown are both different, they probably have two different turbo's on them.

[XixGenuinexiX]

241HP and 170TRQ on 7psi.. another 1psi and that'll probably be around 248hp and 178trq

[tran_nsx]

Originally Posted by XixGenuinexiX

their both running on different psi, i'm sure b18c1 could run on 10psi without detonation if the person knew what he was doing. Therefore i say B18c1 if your going to tune properly, and LS if you want to be safe. Plus the turbo kits you shown are both different, they probably have two different turbo's on them.

ok, say the guy does know whats he's doing, which i doubt and does make it run 10 psi on a stock block, he could've still done the same for the ls, so instead of 12, he might even reach 14 psi.

since the ls block can run to 12 psi it would still beat the gsr on 10 psi due to the amount of torque being produced. just look at the dynos, who has the better power band? hp is good, but without torque to help, its not good enough. hmmm, what psi does the gsr have to be to even reach 200 lbs of tq? .

another thing, you said they have different turbos, that is correct, but if u don't know the gsr is the one with the better kit. the ls has the drag, which produces an average power gain from a turbo, nothing spectacular. put a rev hard on the ls and it would be no comparison. again like i said earlier, the ls.