Sarin bomb.

[RedLightning]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5060648/ ok i know that ill be flamed b/c this is no proof that they had stockpiles of this, i dont mean to say that.

[Cbass]

Iraq sarin shell is not part of a secret cache

By Scott Ritter

DELMAR, N.Y. – In the mid-1980s I served as the intelligence officer for a Marine artillery battalion. Stationed in Twentynine Palms, Calif., I would often find myself deployed in the field, on exercises where thousands of live artillery rounds were fired downrange.
In keeping with the Marine artillery motto of "shoot, move, communicate," we were always moving from one firing location to another to simulate modern war. This mobility had us often passing through live-fire impact areas. One thing you quickly learned was not to touch anything lying on the ground, because modern artillery shells had a high "dud" rate, meaning they didn't always function the way they were intended. Tens of thousands of these "duds" were scattered across the desert terrain, not unlike those found in Iraq.

What makes this relevant now is the ongoing speculation about the source of the sarin chemical artillery shell that the US military found rigged as an improvised explosive device (IED) last week in Baghdad. If the 155-mm shell was a "dud" fired long ago - which is highly likely - then it would not be evidence of the secret stockpile of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) that the Bush administration used as justification to invade Iraq.As a United Nations weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 to 1998, I know that the Iraq Survey Group (ISG), the US-led unit now responsible for investigating WMD in Iraq, could quite easily determine whether this shell had been fired long ago or not. Given the trouble the administration has had in documenting its past allegations about WMD, releasing the news of last week's sarin shell without the key information about the state of the shell itself seems disingenuous.

As a former UN inspector, I'm also familiar with the level of disarmament achieved concerning Iraq's banned WMD. And during my time in Iraq, 95 percent of the WMD produced by Iraq were verifiably accounted for. But I've always contended that Iraq is a WMD archaeological site, and that if one digs long enough, vestiges of these past WMD programs will be uncovered. Determining whether the discovery of the sarin artillery shell represents such an archaeological discovery, or is part of Saddam Hussein's alleged stockpile of WMD, rests with a full forensic exam of the shell.

The key to whether the sarin artillery round came from an arms cache or was a derelict dud rests in the physical characteristics of the shell. The artillery shells in question were fitted with two aluminum cannisters separated by a rupture disk. The two precursor chemicals for the kind of sarin associated with this shell were stored separately in these containers. The thrust of the shell being fired was designed to cause the liquid in the forward cannister to press back and break the rupture disk, whereupon the rotation of the shell as it headed downrange would mix the two precursors together, creating sarin. Upon impact with the ground - or in the air, if a timed fuse was used - a burster charge would break the shell, releasing the sarin gas.

Many things go wrong when firing an artillery round: the propellent charge can be faulty, resulting in a round that doesn't reach its target; the fuse can malfunction, preventing the burster charge from going off, leaving the round intact; the rupture disk can fail to burst, keeping precursor chemicals from combining. The fuse could break off on impact, leaving the fuse cavity empty. To the untrained eye, the artillery shell, if found in this state, would look weathered, but unfired.

What gives away whether the shell had been fired is the base-bleed charge, which unlike the rest of the shell, will show evidence of being fired (or not). Iraq declared that it had produced 170 of these base-bleed sarin artillery shells as part of a research and development program that never led to production. Ten of these shells were tested using inert fill - oil and colored water. Ten others were tested in simulated firing using the sarin precursors. And 150 of these shells, filled with sarin precursors, were live-fired at an artillery range south of Baghdad. A 10 percent dud rate among artillery shells isn't unheard of - and even greater percentages can occur. So there's a good possibility that at least 15 of these sarin artillery shells failed and lie forgotten in the Iraq desert, waiting to be picked up by any unsuspecting insurgent looking for raw material from which to construct an IED.

Given what's known about sarin shells, the US could be expected to offer a careful recital of the data with news of the shell. But facts that should have accompanied the story - the type of shell, its condition, whether it had been fired previously, and the age and viability of the sarin and precursor chemicals - were absent. And that's opened the door to irresponsible speculation that the shell was part of a live WMD stockpile. The data - available to the ISG - would put this development in proper perspective - allowing responsible discussion of the event and its possible ramifications.

Given that the US is in the midst of a contentious presidential campaign, it's essential that accurate data about Iraq be available to the electorate. The handling of the sarin shell incident is the greatest justification yet for shutting down the ISG, and the immediate return to Iraq of UN weapons inspectors - if for no other reason than to restore a vestige of credibility to a disarmament effort that long ago lost its moral compass.

• Scott Ritter was a UN weapons inspector in Iraq (1991-1998) and is author of 'Frontier Justice: Weapons of Mass Destruction and the Bushwhacking of America.'



http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0521/p09s01-coop.html

[RedLightning]

very interesting read, thank you Cbass. I love reading about weapons!

[taranaki]

http://www.kaicurry.com/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by taranaki

http://www.kaicurry.com/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html

OMG! I needed that...thanks.

[YogsVR4]

Sweet - I guess its time to post competing partasin sites http://www.johnfnkerry.com/index.htm













Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!

[CarSuperfreak]

haha, it took me a minute to understand the site name. someone put a lot of work into this....

[RedLightning]

ummm, what do those have to do with sarin bombs? I dont want this thread to be another kerry vs. bush thing. Come on dont try to start arguments that have nothing to do with the subject, at least Cbass was on topic.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Um...Nameless Dork

ummm, what do those have to do with sarin bombs? I dont want this thread to be another kerry vs. bush thing. Come on dont try to start arguments that have nothing to do with the subject, at least Cbass was on topic.

And what has your post got to offer on the subject?IMy post might be a satirical link,but it does highlight the utter codswallop that has been spouted in this war.Now we have a 'sarin bomb'.....

over a year after the primary phase of fighting is over,and despite the fact that no weapons inpectors from the UN or the US has found any of the WMD so frequenly lied about by the current administration,one single solitary shell allegedly containing miniscule amounts of sarin emerges? Having inspected hundreds of thousands of spent and unspent artillery shells,and found jack shit,suddenly this lonely little shell turns up,and before the press can be brought in in their droves to examine and record this pivotal piece of evidence,it mysteriously explodes?one shell out of hundreds of thousands?and when it explodes it only releases a very minor amount of sarin?

Why would Saddam's evil armourers go to such trouble to make one only'Weapon Of Slightly Naughty But Proves Our Point Destruction?

The whole story is too preposterous for words and no intelligent person would swallow it for a second.However,the votes of the stupid carry as much weight as the votes of the propaganda-aware,and no doubt there are plenty of people who are desperate enough for their brand of bogus patriotism to be justified that they will look the other way when presented with the percentages and the logic.

The very dumbest of the staunch Republicans are now running around smugly telling everyone who will listen that "everything the President ever said about that evil bastard Saddam was true,and here's one in the eye for those pussy liberals..."

Thing is,pretty much every liberal that I've talked to wants to see some proof to back up this load of half-assed codswallop.

[YogsVR4]

The creative use of synonyms and insinuation of stupidity to people who disagree is barely worth commenting on. Its simply restating the tired arguements we've heard before. I think I'll continue to do the same.

Only fools and morons believe that Sadam never had any WMD materials. They didn't just disappear into the fantasy world that these people live. They have not been found yet, either where they are hidden or where they were destroyed.

The cowards and impotent of the world wail like children who don't get their way. These are the same people who fretted about hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. Fretted about starvation on a massive scale. Feared that the Kurds would try and form their own country and destabilize Turkey. The lies and follies of the rest of the world are not pointed out often enough around here. These same short sighted people will all benefit from the removal of Saddam and the emergence of a free Iraq.


The the rhetoric of the partisans continue.













Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!

[RedLightning]

Originally Posted by Um...Nameless Dork

ok i know that ill be flamed b/c this is no proof that they had stockpiles of this, i dont mean to say that.

taranaki do you know how to read? hmmmm, i dont know where in that article it said that we have finally proven that he had this, i believe it says that is was not declared, meaning it might have come from another country.

Originally Posted by taranaki

suddenly this lonely little shell turns up,and before the press can be brought in in their droves to examine and record this pivotal piece of evidence,it mysteriously explodes?one shell out of hundreds of thousands?and when it explodes it only releases a very minor amount of sarin?

Ya, from that article- "Some trace elements of mustard agent, an older type of chemical weapon, were detected in an artillery shell found in a Baghdad street this month, U.S. officials said previously. The shell also was believed to be from one of Saddam’s old stockpiles."

Originally Posted by taranaki

Why would Saddam's evil armourers go to such trouble to make one only'Weapon Of Slightly Naughty But Proves Our Point Destruction?

From the article u must not have read- "Since it was not fired from a gun but was detonated as a bomb, the initial explosion on May 15 dispersed the precursor chemicals, apparently mixing them in only small amounts, officials said then. In battle, such shells would have to be fired in great numbers to affect a large body of troops."

mysteriously exploded?! gosh(from the article you must not have read)-

"Some analysts worry the 155-millimeter artillery shell, found rigged as a bomb on May 15,..."(it was used by the insurgents)




Heres an older article that i posted a while ago in another thread. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4997808/

“The round had been rigged as an IED [improvised explosive device] which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy.



Please read the article next time, it really helps to understand what the thread is about.

[lazysmurff]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Only fools and morons believe that Sadam never had any WMD materials. They didn't just disappear into the fantasy world that these people live. They have not been found yet, either where they are hidden or where they were destroyed.

only a fool would forget their history class in which we learned OUR country sold them quite a few of the chemicals needed to make those weapons

and this Sarin bombis great. maybe they will finally find these weapons of mass destruction they've been talking about. maybe. if they do, i wont be suprised when they are revealed to the world the day before the election.

you have to admit, it is kinda frustrating when your government was so sure about these weapons, and had the intelligence info to back it up, and all we had to do was go into Iraq and pull saddam off his throne and go into the trap door underneath....and over a year later all we have to show for it is ONE shell, that may very well have been smuggled into the country AFTER the occupation started.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Um...Nameless Dork

taranaki do you know how to read?

Read this,dismissed the rest of the post as the work of an idiot.

[RedLightning]

mod edit

[lazysmurff]

kinda on the topic, but did anyone else read where powell admited his presentation to the UN contained evidence the was wrong, and intentionally misrepresented and misleading?