Rear Sway Bar. Yes or No?

[Panoz60]

Greetings again,

When I bought my GTRA, the rear sway bar was removed and not included in the sale. My limited understanding was that these cars behave better without them??? My experience is that removing (or softening) the rear sway bar on any car will introduce an understeer condition. Without sounding too arrogant, I think some (less experienced) drivers are more comfortable with understeer because its simpler/easier to recover from, whereas an oversteer introduces a certain pucker factor. I prefer my car set-ups a touch on the loose side, as I like to feel the car rotate through the turns. I am trying to get the car base-lined for my first day at the track with it. So my question to you gentlemen is;

Should I run a rear sway bar? (please note that I am fully upgrading the car to GTS specs) PAD sent me a parts/price list for the entire set-up, but it's money saved if it's unnecessary.

[Cobra4B]

Yes run it. The school cars are set to plow for novice drivers. I put the front swaybar on the softer setting and added the rear GTS bar on the softest or mid setting (can't remember) along with fresh Konis (the standard yellow ones) and it was a whole new car. I also put 550lb springs up front and moved the standard 350s to the rear.

Once I get the car back together I'll be re-adjusting everything as the car will be a good bit lighter.

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Panoz60

Greetings again,

When I bought my GTRA, the rear sway bar was removed and not included in the sale. My limited understanding was that these cars behave better without them??? My experience is that removing (or softening) the rear sway bar on any car will introduce an understeer condition. Without sounding too arrogant, I think some (less experienced) drivers are more comfortable with understeer because its simpler/easier to recover from, whereas an oversteer introduces a certain pucker factor. I prefer my car set-ups a touch on the loose side, as I like to feel the car rotate through the turns. I am trying to get the car base-lined for my first day at the track with it. So my question to you gentlemen is;

Should I run a rear sway bar? (please note that I am fully upgrading the car to GTS specs) PAD sent me a parts/price list for the entire set-up, but it's money saved if it's unnecessary.

This is a really a testing & stop watch question. Run the car without the bar and log your times then run it with the bar and you will know.

We run our car without the bar and on the limit the car always tends to oversteer not understeer (550lb fronts, 350lb rears on 285/30/18 DOT's set up for endurance racing so running full 120 liter fuel load in races). What balance your car will have will of course depend on many other setup factors such as your front rear spring rates. shock settings, alignment settings, fuel load etc.

A small hint here, as I recall Brian Goldberg had some assistance with setup from Panoz at a race meeting some time back and they disconnected the rear bar and he went quicker. This may not always be the case though.

A last thought on this, generally a "loose" car is not as fast as a well setup "stable" car.

Kel.

[Panoz60]

I am in a (bad?) habit of perpetually trying to over-prepare a car. I am fortunate to have both Sebring and Daytona in my region, but I drop close to $500.00 each time I take the car out. That includes entrance fees, race fuel, diesel, food, etc. Nothing irritates me more than getting to the track and being either unprepared for lack of tools/parts, or having the car so "off" thats it's miserable to drive and being unable to remedy it at the track. I feel like I just wasted $500.00 if the car isn't running well and I'm not having fun. Thats just me.

My experience at these tracks was for four seasons in a SCCA A/S Fox Mustang. I found that the Mustang lap times were best when the rear end was just on the verge of stepping out. Then again, that was 350 RWHP in a 3200# car with (basically) stock suspension and 16" DOT Hoosier R6's. My learning curve will be getting used to a car that has real suspension, lower CG, anti-dive geometry, and down force. My Panoz currently is powered by a bone stock 5.0 (351 spec motor is almost done) I upgraded to the Penskes, did all the chassis reinforcements PAD suggests, and I have 550#'s and 350#'s. I am running 17x10 wheels (for now) with used Continental (Call 'em Hoosiers) 275/40 slicks.

As far as the rear bar, I'm thinking it may be better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. ??? But it's $400.00 from PAD. Decisions, decisions!

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Panoz60

I am in a (bad?) habit of perpetually trying to over-prepare a car. I am fortunate to have both Sebring and Daytona in my region, but I drop close to $500.00 each time I take the car out. That includes entrance fees, race fuel, diesel, food, etc. Nothing irritates me more than getting to the track and being either unprepared for lack of tools/parts, or having the car so "off" thats it's miserable to drive and being unable to remedy it at the track. I feel like I just wasted $500.00 if the car isn't running well and I'm not having fun. Thats just me.

My experience at these tracks was for four seasons in a SCCA A/S Fox Mustang. I found that the Mustang lap times were best when the rear end was just on the verge of stepping out. Then again, that was 350 RWHP in a 3200# car with (basically) stock suspension and 16" DOT Hoosier R6's. My learning curve will be getting used to a car that has real suspension, lower CG, anti-dive geometry, and down force. My Panoz currently is powered by a bone stock 5.0 (351 spec motor is almost done) I upgraded to the Penskes, did all the chassis reinforcements PAD suggests, and I have 550#'s and 350#'s. I am running 17x10 wheels (for now) with used Continental (Call 'em Hoosiers) 275/40 slicks.

As far as the rear bar, I'm thinking it may be better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. ??? But it's $400.00 from PAD. Decisions, decisions!

I hear you regards having options at the track. We always try to ensure that we have tested settings up our sleeve to sort the car if required.

Given your current low hp and high grip a bar may help. We are running nearly 500ftlb's of torque so transitioning to oversteer is just a throttle adjustment issue.

Kel.

[Panoz60]

Originally Posted by NZGTRA17

I hear you regards having options at the track. We always try to ensure that we have tested settings up our sleeve to sort the car if required.

Given your current low hp and high grip a bar may help. We are running nearly 500ftlb's of torque so transitioning to oversteer is just a throttle adjustment issue.

Kel.

Great advice!

[panozracing]

The rear bar is all setup related and track conditions. Its on and off for me. I was a Florida region racer for 10 years.

You need the bar at Daytona on the banking.
PBIR setup like its raining (no bar).
HMS depends on if your running the banking but usually use a bar.
Sebring I used the bar.

500 FWHP
500 FWTQ

Huge rubber (305/65/18 FR and 325/70/18 Rear) - Full slicks

[Panoz60]

Brian, your input and experience is always appreciated. At PBIR however, I had to actually change to a 450 Lb rear spring (on my A/S Mustang) to get the car to rotate. I've only been there once on the new configuration, and the first time out during practice/qualifying, the car was plowing like a tractor. It seemed most everybody else has the same problem. But the track was relatively new and very green. It may be different now. ?? Anyway, I'm going to go with the bar for now. If Kel is right about high grip, low HP, I can always disconnect it.

My engine should, at best, generate 420-430 rwhp according to my engine builder. He used to build motors for Reutiman, Nemechek, and Almirola when they were local racers. I trust his estimate.