Getting tired of hearing this from car reviewers

[RidingOnRailz]

Case in point:

This test drive of the renovated Chrysler Sebring(the 200) by USAToday's James Healey: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...vertible_n.htm

About 1/3rd of the way down he remarks "
•Steering flaws. One is feel. Too boosted at parking-lot speed, as if the front wheels are on ice, and lacking direct road feel at higher speed.
The other is torque steer. The Limited test car pulled unacceptably hard to the right on heavy acceleration. The Touring was less affected. Touring tires have taller sidewalls, and a little more "give," which could help explain the difference.
Winter: "We're aware of the torque steer. We haven't had any feedback that it's an issue in the convertible. We don't think it's a customer concern.""

Mr. Winter at Chrysler doesn't think it's a customer concern?? Who the heck is he kidding?!

During the latter half of the past decade, Healey at USA and other reviewers at Consumerguide . com, Motor Trend, and C&D have been making similar remarks regarding the steering on cars the past 5 or so model years up, including but not limited to:

- "..twitchy steering.."

- "..constant corrections at highway speeds..."

- "...numb...vague..."

- "..overboosted power steering....little feedback.."

And to be clear - it's NOT THE REVIEWERS I'm tired of at all! What is this, the late '60s? the mid-'70s - when cars were big enough to qualify for their own zipcode?! And I have had personal experience with some of what they've said - with my last-owned electric steering 2005 Malibu.

How can we be having these kinds of comments nowadays, given the contemporary ability to make anything on the road handle like a 3 or 5-Series?????

WHAT are both American and foreign auto builders NOT GETTING HERE? We've done the moon, the Concorde, the Shuttle, built cell phones that can do anything but clean house or cook meals!

And still, STILL, that's all the car testers can say about many cars they've tested? I - we - want answers. We want to know how difficult it is to build a steering/suspension system - for any sized car - that provides reasonable feedback, steering return, is tight straight-ahead, and is easy to both park and drive by anyone from 16 to 86 years old, slight of build or ripped muscular, from 4' 8" to 6' 8" tall.

Now I don't want to hear "Write the manufacturers" as a reply. This needs serious research as there are safety implications here. If consumers truly prefer the kind of steering that expert auto reviewers find "..vague...twitchy.." then they seriously need professional help. I, for one, am not one of them, and as I said before elsewhere, I want to see these demographics in writing!

[Black Lotus]

The statement by Mr. Winters suggests that he doesn't think that the type of driver that is likely to buy this type of car will ever notice the flaws in the steering and handling of that car.
I would say that most of the people that buy BMWs wouldn't know whether or not they have good or bad steering characteristics--only that they they have a BMW and that's enough for them.
It's an enthusiasts magazines road testers job to dissect the steering, handling and road performance for the benefit of the automotive enthusiasts WHO DRIVE THE CAR HARD ENOUGH TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, which make up maybe 2%, or less, of the buying public.
The rest of the public just wants a car to drive straight down the highway on the way to the hairdresser and to look shiny in the driveway.
Mr. Winters only concern is that somebody who's in the market to buy that type of car will read that issue of USA Today, and even then, I suspect the women of the house will make the buying decision based on what she thinks of the interior colors...

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

Mr. Winters only concern is that somebody who's in the market to buy that type of car will read that issue of USA Today, and even then, I suspect the women of the house will make the buying decision based on what she thinks of the interior colors...

Absolutely!

If you want a car with responsive steering, handling etc, go and buy a Lotus.

The vast majority of mainstream cars are being made simpler and easier to drive, not because the manufacturers want to, but because the buying public want them too.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Moppie

Absolutely!

If you want a car with responsive steering, handling etc, go and buy a Lotus.

The vast majority of mainstream cars are being made simpler and easier to drive, not because the manufacturers want to, but because the buying public want them too.

At the risk of repeating, I want to see proof(not from you - from the mfgs!) of what you are suggesting. I am certainly not a member of that "buying public".

We're talking about a contribution to safety here. Steering that is firm straight ahead but quickly responds to evasive action is a safety item, not a premium feature, a la heated & cooled latte-dispensing back-massaging surround-sound BUCKET SEATS!!!

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

At the risk of repeating, I want to see proof(not from you - from the mfgs!) of what you are suggesting. I am certainly not a member of that "buying public".

We're talking about a contribution to safety here. Steering that is firm straight ahead but quickly responds to evasive action is a safety item, not a premium feature, a la heated & cooled latte-dispensing back-massaging surround-sound BUCKET SEATS!!!

Sales.

Sales.

Sales.

[Wave Grease]

Originally Posted by Moppie

Sales.

Sales.

Sales.

Hardly proof if the majority of what is available has the same flaws!

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Wave Grease

Hardly proof if the majority of what is available has the same flaws!

I think what Moppie meant to imply was "must ... sell .. more" even if what they are selling handles like crap.

[Moppie]

Americans have a very bad reputation for liking soft, poor handling cars.

Its one reason the Europeans have often had a hard time breaking into the US market, and in order to do so have softened and changed their suspension to match.

Here in NZ and Australia we generally like cars that are a little firmer and more responsive, but have a good mix of cars from around the world.

I have US built Accord Wagon, while my better half has a NZ built Accord sedan.
Both are from the same factory in the US, bu the NZ car was assembled here, and along with different spec, has quite a different suspension set up.
It is a lot more responsive, and noticeable harder sprung and dampened.

The new Camaro has just gone on sale here in limited numbers.
It uses the same engine, chassis and suspension set up as the Holden Monaro and Holden HSV models.
Yet road tests here and in Australia, comparing the Camaro to various Holden HSV models have shown it's slower in a straight line and does not handle nearly as well.
Not only is it soft to drive, but it doesn't match the HSV's for corner grip and ability to change direction.



GM is quite capable of building a large V8 RWD car, with lots of HP that also handles well and is fun to drive.
They do it very well in Australia, and sell the cars in Europe and the Middle East.
Yet these same cars get softened and dumbed down for the US market.

[Wave Grease]

Originally Posted by Moppie

Americans have a very bad reputation for liking soft, poor handling cars.

Correct! I drive an American spec Honda Civic in Germany. On turns where I am at the limit of body roll and understeer, comparable European spec cars have no problem. I'm talking grocery getters like the Skoda Fabia, VW Polo etc. Even the tiny econo-cars seem to handle more athletically.

Middle category vehicles like VW Passats and others feel like supercars compared to mine. It makes me kind of regret getting an American spec car. (On the other hand, I'm lazy and wanted an automatic)

A lot of Germans also use high performance tires in the summer.

I guess American Jell-o suspension can be associated with poor road conditions and snail speed limits.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Moppie

GM is quite capable of building a large V8 RWD car, with lots of HP that also handles well and is fun to drive.
They do it very well in Australia, and sell the cars in Europe and the Middle East.
Yet these same cars get softened and dumbed down for the US market.

Then how difficult would it be to arrange test seminars, on a track simulating present road conditions - even a crack or small pot hole here or there - where subjects of the American driving public could come in and test drive several variants of the same make/model??

I.E. The Impala. Build a soft-sprung version with next to no caster/camber with the power steering jacked up to 12, and then provide one with 7 degrees of caster, negative-1 degree camber all around, variable power steering that shuts down above 30mph and springs so taut that if an elephant sat on one it would pop out of their mouth - know what I mean?

Instead of surveys the public fills out, have them DRIVE various platforms and decide for themselves what they wouldn't mind experiencing daily. Then, configure suspensions based on THAT data, not on what comes from a survey!

I for one have no problem driving on "American" roads. Yes, for my 2008 Optima I do find myself speeding almost all the time - 35 in a 25 zone, 40 in a 30, 70 on a highway posted at 55 or 65. I'm very comfortable with this car's setup. 40 does feel like 30mph in this car. What does that say about the posted speed limit? 8 letters: p o l i t i c s ! Science has nothing to do with it. Yes, my 2005 Malibu V6 certainly had more power across the band, but it was a white-knuckle ordeal at anything over 30mph. I have learned over time that not all destinations can be arrived at in a straight line. And that, for moi, is where handling trumps power/torque every single time.

So my proposal is to get consumers involved in the test phase of design and development, and see what happens. I don't think the U.S. public is "dumb" at all. The dumbing down comes from the media and from providers of products that charges more by the decade while reducing overall quality and features and thinking most of us will be too "dumb" to notice! It is up to the consumer - it is they who have the power to demand more and beat manufacturers at this game of greed.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Wave Grease

Correct! I drive an American spec Honda Civic in Germany. On turns where I am at the limit of body roll and understeer, comparable European spec cars have no problem. I'm talking grocery getters like the Skoda Fabia, VW Polo etc. Even the tiny econo-cars seem to handle more athletically.

Middle category vehicles like VW Passats and others feel like supercars compared to mine. It makes me kind of regret getting an American spec car. (On the other hand, I'm lazy and wanted an automatic)

A lot of Germans also use high performance tires in the summer.

I guess American Jell-o suspension can be associated with poor road conditions and snail speed limits.

Well I s'pose there's one way to get around the "mushiness wars" of domestic intent: Import the BMW/Kia/VW/Toyota you desire directly from that country. Even if it costs more in terms of shipping, and modifying the emmissions to U.S. standards, the overall effect should be a car you enjoy driving as much as all those other features that adorn the cabin.

[Wave Grease]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

Well I s'pose there's one way to get around the "mushiness wars" of domestic intent: Import the BMW/Kia/VW/Toyota you desire directly from that country. Even if it costs more in terms of shipping, and modifying the emmissions to U.S. standards, the overall effect should be a car you enjoy driving as much as all those other features that adorn the cabin.

Wouldnt an aftermarket suspension be cheaper?

I think the majority of people looking at mainstream cars are concerned with three things: appearance, price and fuel economy. The car with extra thought and engineering put into its suspension and steering will undoubtedly lose in the price category.

[Black Lotus]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

Science has nothing to do with it. Yes, my 2005 Malibu V6 certainly had more power across the band, but it was a white-knuckle ordeal at anything over 30mph. I have learned over time that not all destinations can be arrived at in a straight line. And that, for moi, is where handling trumps power/torque every single time.

I'd say that if you are "white knuckling" a 2005 Malibu at anything over 30 MPH, you need to relax some (!), or start replacing parts, and find a technician to perform that alignment that it so sorely needs.
By the way, roads that are worn out may cause your car to pull badly to one side or the other.
It's worse with wide tires and/or a poor choice of rims (offset/setback).

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

So my proposal is to get consumers involved in the test phase of design and development, and see what happens. I don't think the U.S. public is "dumb" at all. The dumbing down comes from the media and from providers of products that charges more by the decade while reducing overall quality and features and thinking most of us will be too "dumb" to notice! It is up to the consumer - it is they who have the power to demand more and beat manufacturers at this game of greed.

I believe this does happen. And the consumers all say they want as little involvement as possible in the driving process.


Cars built, or designed outside of the US market get softened before sold there, and cars built and designed there get stiffened if they want them to sell well out side the US.

Here in NZ, Kia, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Nissan etc, all bring in cars with slightly stiffer suspension just for our market.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

I'd say that if you are "white knuckling" a 2005 Malibu at anything over 30 MPH, you need to relax some (!), or start replacing parts, and find a technician to perform that alignment that it so sorely needs.
By the way, roads that are worn out may cause your car to pull badly to one side or the other.
It's worse with wide tires and/or a poor choice of rims (offset/setback).

The Mali was like that from the factory. Problem is on that year the electric p.s. lent no feedback. It felt the same weight-wise from center to side to side! I don't mind if my car pulls on a worn or heavily crowned street - as long as it pulls to the right!