Grand Voyager Engine not turning-good starter

[Nodrah]

2000 Chrysler Grand Voyager, 3.0 engine, 103k miles. Tried starting this morning and nothing...only faint clicking in fuse/realy area under hood. All lights, radio, blower working fine. Replaced Starter Relay, still nothing. Was inpatient and went ahead and replaced starter without having old one checked first--still doesn't work (and when tested, the old one was fine). Battery is <6 months old and connections look great. Looking for what to check next as I really don't want to call a tow to take it to a shop. Any advice appreciated...

[iwannagofast]

All the lights on dash light up?headlights on?make sure the battery has enough juice.next check to see if there is power going to the starter solenoid.

[jpb53]

Pullthe relay and turn it over. #'s referenced are on the relay.# 86 is power from ignition switch when in start position. # 85 goes to PCM. # 30 is hot at alltimes. And # 87 goes to the starter solenoid. You can jump 30 to 87 and see if the eng will crank.

[RIP]

If you don't have a multimeter, the easiest way to determine a battery related problem is to jump start the van with a set of jumper cables and another car. If it starts, look towards the battery or connections. Just because you have lights doesn't mean the battery has enough juice to overcome several hunderd pounds of pressure in the engine.

If you have a meter, another way to narrow this down is to measure the voltage across the battery terminals with the key off. Should see 12+ vdc. Now trun the key to start. If the battery dips much below 10 vdc, either charge or replace the battery. The age of the battery matters little. If the voltages are good and the starter relay clicks, check for volts at the starter solenoid (smaller connection on starter)as stated and verify you have supply voltage from the battery at the larger connection on the starter. Should see 12vdc all the time.

If the starter relay clicks, power is getting from the battery through the ignition switch to the relay. Only thing left is the starter and wiring to it from the relay and battery. You've changed the starter and relay. What's left? Battery and wiring/connections.

[Nodrah]

Let me start by letting you know I greatly appreciate any and all feedback as I am very much a novice at auto mechanics. Yes, all lights, radio, windows, blower, etc. all work just fine. I did try jumping it after initially discovering the problem to no avail.

I ran a multimeter on the battery and it showed 12-12.5 consistently even when turnign the key in the ignitition. I could still hear the clicking in the relay area, and could have sworn I heard some sort of clicking behind the glove box area as well (???). I disconnected the smaller spade-style plug from the Starter and inserted one of the meters pins in it and the other on the starter itself, on the chasis, and on the plug it was connected to (I haven't used this much before so I wasn't sure what to try); the meter did not show any signs of current. I'm not sure how or what I need to do to check the solenoid; is that the other, larger screwed on connection on the starter?

I'm also not real familiar with jumping the relay area; do I just insert a small wire into the slots connecting 30 and 87? What next and what should I expect? The pins on my multimeter are too large to fit into these slots otherwise I thought about trying to check for power there as well.

What should my next steps be, short of calling the mechanic to come pick it up or maybe the salvage yard ;-)?

I read on a couple other forums where folks with similar issues mentioned maybe the gear shift sensor (?) malfunctioning and not recognizing it was in P or N. I also saw something about the "kill" switch (for lack of a better term) causing problems, but I' m not sure where to look for either of these.

On other note, several months ago the van all-of-a sudden ran nearly dry of oil with no signs of any leak (we park in the garage and the floor is spotless). It was just a bit past the 3-months checkup but we hadn't gone but 2500 miles so I never really thgouht about checking the oil as it's never had a problem before. (I've changed it myself years ago but have more recently been taking it to one of the 30-min places nearby; maybe they didn't fill it all the way up or something.) My only sign was the engine was making a strange pinging sound and and I think either the check engine light or maybe the temp was high, can't recall. Anyway, I filled it up with oild and haven't noticed anythign since. I now check it every month or so.

The van has been a royal pain since for some time...it threw the main S belt two weeks after we got in 01, was replaced about a year later, and at least three more times since. We had the main pull assembly replaced and it still threw belts. My mechanic finally found info on an aftermarket pulley with sides and replaced it and have finally had consisent luck with it for a while now. We also had to replace the Transmission around 65k (not under warranty) and had to have some major fuel system work done where the had to drop the entire tank to work on it. Luckily this was covered by a Chrysler recall.

Sorry for all the rambling, and again I sincerely appreciate everyone who has helped not only me but all the others on the forums I've been looking at today.

[jpb53]

Yes the female connectors for the relay are small and it is good you did not force the multimeter leads into them. You can spread the pins and cause more damage by doing this. If the relay is clicking then more than likely the contacts in the relay are closing. You have to check slot 30 for the relay and seeif there is power there. Power comes from the battery through a 40 amp fuse in the PDC ( power distribution center). That is the module underhood that has the relays and fuses in it. You canuse something like a small paper clip in the connector as a probe. Just make sure it is small enough and you don't spread the connector.

[Nodrah]

Jumped 30 to 87 and it started...so does this mean it's something wrong with the ignition switch or something in that area? Thanks!

[RIP]

It means the battery, starter, starter solenoid, and output circuit from the relay are doing their jobs. Sounds like a problem with the input (coil) circuit to the starter relay.

Remove the jumper from 30 and 87. While checking for voltage at contact #86 turn the ignition to start. You should see 12vdc. If it's there, the ignition switch is doing it's job. Your problem then is something is preventing the PCM from supplying a ground path to the starter relay coil at contact #85.

[drum4Him]

I had a similar problem with my 98 grand voyager. Discovered I had a ground problem too. Make sure your battery terminals and cables are clean. It would turn over after I did 2 things: 1 replaced the battery 2 For some unknown reason, after I would pull the PCM connectors off then install again, it would start up (???) Maybe this reset some signal required to start.

My other problem was a intemittent speedometer, with flickering panel light and with an ABS light on. Read on a forum that a 300 ohm resistor on the Body Control Module circuit board would open causing the whole problem. I yanked out the BCM from under the dash, and found the reistor on the back side of the circuit board. This was a surface mount board, so the resistor was tiny and the value (301) had to be found with magnification. Replaced the resistor with any off the shelf 300 ohm resistor, and the van fired right up. The only problem since has been a service engine light that has lit up. Will take it to a shop for that...

[Nodrah]

Thanks for everyone's help...I ended up taking it to a shop as I was at my wits end and didn't feel comfortable tearing it apart any further. Ended up being a melted wire under the relay area I think. Not sure how that happens, but it's fixed now. Only cost me $130 for new starter and solenoid i didn't need and $160 for the shop to look at it and replace the wire. Compared to most problems we've had with this vehicle I think less than $300 is a steal!

[dieseln]

RIP - i've a similar problem - and thanks for the test tips>>>>

I jumped relay pin #30 to #87 and the starter turns (with key off)
I jumped them with key on and the starter turns but no spark (won't start).

Voltage at pin #86 is almost 12V...

Is replacing the PCM the next step?

thanks,
Ken

[RIP]

Originally Posted by dieseln

RIP - i've a similar problem - and thanks for the test tips>>>>

I jumped relay pin #30 to #87 and the starter turns (with key off)
I jumped them with key on and the starter turns but no spark (won't start).

Voltage at pin #86 is almost 12V...

Is replacing the PCM the next step?

thanks,
Ken

Which model year?

[dieseln]

1999 Voyager "expresso" 165K miles, no dash/gauge problems except for "door ajar" light for no reason.

Went to start it the other day and the starter didn't turn. Crawled under and found that the brown wire to solenoid wasn't getting power to it when key was turned to 'crank'. then i found this post and performed the tests you mentioned with the relay.

thanks,
Ken

[dieseln]

also getting code 940 from dash.
This van doesn't have a security system (that i'm aware of)
would it still have an "Immobilizer"?

[RIP]

940 = No CCD bus messages from powertrain control module - hmm.

That code tells me you may want to consider inspecting the instrument cluster connector connection where it is soldered to the cluster circuit board. This is the cluster solder joint issue you may have read about. I haven't read of it in a while but a cracked solder joint at that connection can prevent the starter from engaging. All to do with the CCD data bus in your van. The modules use this to transfer data back and forth. The cluster, PCM and BCM are major players on the bus. As I recall it is usually associated with a dead cluster. Not your case but it is still worth a look. Smack the dash above the cluster as you turn the key. If it comes alive you have bad solder joints. Trouble is it can still be the solder joint even if it doesn't. The fix for this is to retouch all the joints with a soldering iron. In other words you might get out of this without spending a dime. Here's a slideshow on how to gain access and make the repair:http://www.flickr.com/photos/landar/ Open "98T&C dash removal" in right column then click slideshow at upper right.

If you try this and it doesn't work all that's left is to check continuity from contact 85 at the relay to the PCM and swap the relay with a neighbor. New PCM is next. No security system means no immobilizer. Even so if it were the security system immobilizer, generally it would start but die right away.

Dealer PCM > $500+
Internet site > $250 - $350
Salvage > $50 - $100

Poked around the net a bit more. Just for grins wiggle the gear shift and see if it starts. The Transmission Range Switch (TRS)took the place of the neutral/park safety switch in 96. This was the switch that allows you to start only in park or neutral. I had read a long time ago the TRS was taken out of the starting circuit loop. Wiring diagrams I've seen agreed with that. I just found a transmisssion WD that sheds some confusion on that. It shows an input to the TCM and PCM from the park/neutral switch in the TRS. Trouble is the WD doesn't make it clear what it's for. It would be easy to assume the TRS really is involved now but I just don't know. No other WD I have shows how it ties into the start circuit so I am scratchin my head a bit. Maybe someone in the know can shed some light.