[boingo82]

Originally Posted by Solomon219

I'm interested in the title of this book, as it sounds like an interesting read. I'm always interested in the "other side" of the story, so that no-one may accuse me of possessing a lack of infromation. Truthfully, how can you form an educated opinion without examining all sides of the issue? Let me go ahead and ask, though: What is the correlation between circumcision and rape? The fact that the male was "traumatized" as an infant because his foreskin was cut? Does it go into the following quote, where males are bigger and more powerful and can subject lesser subjects (i.e. women) to their will? I've always seen rape as a power/control thing, but also as someone who has an intense hatred for women, so that he must humiliate them.



I haven't read this book of yours (though I'd like to) or seen any other studies, but I do believe there is intense pain, and that anesthesia should be used. However, I fail to see how this would have any lasting mental impact on the child, even sub-consciously. I do not believe that a child becomes "impressionable" until farther on in life than 8 weeks, unless it is an abuse that is repeated. Most people have trouble remembering things from before they were 3 years old. So does the book address this?

You can find the book at Amazon.com.

The book doesn't really reach specific conclusions - no studies have been done on the long term effects of this kind of trauma on infants. However it brings up a lot of correlations - which could be due to other factors - such as the way the murder and rape rates have been rising in proportion to the circ rate.
Most people DO have trouble remembering things from when they are very young - in fact many people CAN'T - but whether or not those memories are "there" but just in the subconscious where they're inaccessible is up for debate. Then there is the question of how our subconscious memory affects us. There are a few cases mentioned where a 3-year old child recalled specific detailss about his birth that he hadn't been told about, asking why did people have paper on their faces (the doctors' masks) and why did they put a squeezy thing in his nose, and why did they strap his arms and legs to a board and cut his pee-pee with a scissors. It is very rare for children and especially adults to recall circumstances of their birth, but it has happened.
Some things that HAVE been proven are that infants are more immediately bonded to their mothers than fathers, as they are born knowing the mother's smell and the mother's voice. It has also been established that one of the most common "complications" of circumcision is breastfeeding interruption - where post-circ, a formerly happy child REFUSES to breastfeed under any circumstances.
What isn't established is why this happens. It's supposed that because the infant only knows his mother, he blames her for anything and everything he experiences, and that refusing her shows a lack of trust.
Then there is the rape thing - they don't reach any specific conclusions as no studies have been done - but it HAS been shown that many rapists act out of hate for a specific woman or for all women in general, and they tend to act out that hate on a random or chosen victim BECAUSE she is female, even though she's not the one they're mad at. And it has been shown that a greater percentage of circ'd men become rapists than intact men. But it's hard to say why this is. There are so many factors that could affect it, and like I said, studies have not been done.
Obviously circumcision cannot be a blame-all cause-all for rape and murder, because not every circ'd man rapes and murders. But there is a question of how trauma at such an early age can affect the psyche.

In any case, it's a very interesting read whether you agree or not. I perfectly understand your desire to know more - I started out from a "I won't do it to my kids but other parents can make their own choices" view and the more I read, the more I think, "Why would ANYBODY choose this for someone they loved? I wouldn't wish unauthorized cosmetic surgery on my worst enemy, let alone unanesthetized surgery." I think the more you read the more horrifying it becomes. This is a surgery, after all, that is not recommended by a single medical organization worldwide.

Another good book is What your doctor may not tell you about Circumcision (Paul M. Fleiss, Frederick M. Hodges ), and What every parent should know about circumcision (Anne Briggs).
You'll have a hard time finding the second one though, it's out of print and I bought the last used one off Amazon.

Originally Posted by TexasF355F1

I understand what your saying. Its just hard to leave something up to the person, when they have x amount of years until they can support themselves and their ideals. Parents usually do what they see is best. I was just stating my opinion on your opinion. I in no way wanted to offend you. I think I did, so I am sorry and I appologize.

I'm not offended. Just kinda passionate about the subject matter. I understand what you mean - when you first have a child it's hard to realize they'll ever be full-grown and a "real person" - it seems ages away. I honestly doubt that many parents choose circ out of malice - I think they just don't realize what exactly they're consenting to. In fact in one study of 90 mothers who had chosen circumcision, 6 didn't realize that anything got cut off. They thought the foreskin just got "pushed back".
I won't sit here and tell you that whomever circ's their child is a 'bad parent' either. I am glad that information is so much more readily available nowadays (Thank you internet!!) but a lot of people just say "of course we will circ" without realizing there's an alternative.
My husband said that. "I am and I'm fine so why not?" But I wasn't content to not start researching, and my husband is now apalled that it goes on. If anything I blame doctors for being so willing to do anything for a quick (15-40 minutes) buck ($200-450). Many doctors don't even provide parents with aftercare instructions, and so the babies develop problems requiring further surgery and doctor visits (more $$$). Did you know that the foreskins are sold to bio-tech research companies and cosmetic companies to be made into skin grafts and face creams? More $$$.
http://www.nbc10.com/health/1808693/detail.html
Anyway, I CAN see where you're coming from. I just think it's a subject worth being educated about. Just as I recommend people go to www.hwysafety.org before buying a car so they don't buy a
Chevy Venture/Pontiac Transport/Olds Silhouette.