Overheating 2001

Hello, I have a 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix 3.1 with AC (though I rarely if ever us the AC), approx 166,000 miles. Did not purchase from dealer-ship.

It started to overheat no long ago we have tried almost everything, and to no avail. Here is what we have tried.
Changed the Thermostate (more then once, one was defective)
Changed the Hoses
Bled the system
Tested the fans (by jumping)
Bypass
Water pump still good (from what we can tell)
Heater core looks good

We are not losing antifreeze (we checked it isn't going down)
Nothing floating in the antifreeze
We see no leaks anywhere that we can see to the naked eye.
We check the oil and it all looks good

A relative has a little meter thing that said a plug was fouling the #2 plug (if memory serves me right) so to be sure and when the check engine light came on (on twice) we took it to Autozone and they got a no code. Which is confusing cause of the plug.

We recently took it to Sears garage and had a pressure test done, and asked them to do a Radiator flush (thinking it might be clogged) that didn't work, and their diagnostics showed no problems with the car.
We called them back and they had us bring it back for a new pressure test, they said that there was some brown stuff in the antifreeze (which I am sorry but I can't see it floating in there as they said), that when they flushed it the old antifreeze had geled at the bottom and was probably blocking it from leaking in. They sent us to a GM dealer to by "No Leak coolant sealant" tablets (the five in a pack) Sears proceeded to crush them and put them in, saying this would get us by and shouldn't overheat.

Well it's still over heating many days later, it doesn't peg out but it gets close to the red line. Now here is the catch.
When it gets up that high it will drop sometimes on its own, or
If you floor it, turn a corner, hit a bump, put it in neutral and razz it. Then it goes down to 200 or so. When the temp goes up you lose heat, when it comes down you get heat.

We haven't tried to deal with the intake or head gasket as that is our last resort due to cost and such. The garage [Sears] didn't look to see if that was they said "we are guessing it could be one of those two things, and we don't do those".

Before winter we drained the radiator (all looked fine no discolor, etc) we didn't use Dexcool (we heard bad things about it) then we put in the green stuff (pure, not fifty/fifty). Sears Put back in the fifty-fifty.

Sometimes it will go to the red mark, sometimes it will go to 210, Sometimes it will happen in 5 minutes of starting, other times 15-30 minutes, now according to the manual when it overheats or attempts to it will cut from 6 cyc, to 3 cyc on one side, then when that gets warm it will go to the other 3 cyc until it cools down and kicks back to 6.

We don't know if it could be a sensor, or what have you. None of this makes sense and the gauge is fine, but we can't figure out what to do, I priced what it would cost to do the head gasket or intake and it ranges from $500.00 to $1700.00 I don't have a garage which is why I have to price it.

Can anyone help us? I love this car, and up until this started it ran perfectly, no problems whatsoever. I think I got everything we did and learned down here. If I think of anything else or if I can answer any questions (that might lead to something I forgot to add) I will do so.
Right now this is the only vehical we have and we drive with caution, but I have to get this fix. And we are out idea's.

Very detailed explanation of the initial problem and subsequent issues! When the 3.1 overheats to a certain point, they usually develop a hairline crack between the combustion chamber & water jacket. When this happens, the pressure test is useless, because the crack expands with combustion heat & the combustion pressure overcomes the coolant pressure; thereby, adding heat to the coolant. You can have the coolant tested for combustion gasses, or you could leave the pressure tester on the radiator until the engine is hot and see if the coolant pressure increases beyond what the cap is rated for. If the pressure increases beyond the cap rating, it will open and divert coolant to the overflow. The coolant temp does not have to be in the red zone for this process to happen, it is simply based on the system pressure. If the coolant gas test proves positive, time to pull the heads. If # 2 plug is wet looking, it sounds this is like the likely culprit. Remember, when you shut the engine off, combustion pressure no longer exist; however, coolant pressure will remain on the system for a period of time, which usually injects coolant into the combustion chamber through the crack, hence the discolored/fouled plug!

Pull #2 plug out and take a look at it. What color is it?

When you say you rev it and the temp goes down, makes me think there is air getting in the system.

Are you sure the coolant isn't leaking out? What does the underside of the oil cap look like? Slimy sludge on it?

Take a look down under your throttle body and on the other side between the power steering pump and the LIM. Any seepage?

When your car is cold and you start it, does the radiator hose get hard immediatly on start up?

You could also have a shop do a leakdown test on your cylinders and listen for air bubbles escaping from your radiator.

Okay here is what we have...
Are you sure the coolant isn't leaking out?
Don't seem to be, radiator level doesn't move.

What does the underside of the oil cap look like? Slimy sludge on it?
No, it's clear, normal.

You could also have a shop do a leakdown test on your cylinders and listen for air bubbles escaping from your radiator.
When we took it to sears we asked for a full diagnostics everything if you will, wouldn't that have been included? If not I will have to find someone to do that. I don't have a regular shop most the time we either handle problems ourselves or relatives who know more about it do. But no one has this type of equipment.

Take a look down under your throttle body and on the other side between the power steering pump and the LIM. Any seepage?
Did not see any.

When your car is cold and you start it, does the radiator hose get hard immediatly on start up?
No, and idling it went to 210 and we kept checking it didn't get hard, when it got warm enough for the thermostat to open the top hose callapsed, after it cooled down the hose went back to normal. Also when checking you could feel the coolant following through the hose.

Pull #2 plug out and take a look at it. What color is it?
We are trying to get the plug out, it is not cooperating at the moment, and we don't want to take a chance on busting the wire or the plug.

The hose collapsed? Is the radiator cap in good shape? Is the overflow hose or resivore plugged up?

#2 is the one farthest towards the front (radiator) on passanger side, right?

Twist the boot back and forth with your hands to break the connection and then it should pop right off. They are stubborn.

Okay here we go..
The hose collapsed? Is the radiator cap in good shape? Is the overflow hose or resivore plugged up?
Cap is in good shape. Not plugged up.

#2 is the one farthest towards the front (radiator) on passanger side, right?
Yes, that is correct.

Twist the boot back and forth with your hands to break the connection and then it should pop right off. They are stubborn.
Will give this a try it is a tight fight with the motor mount right there..

Oh yeah that is right, I forgot that darn mount in the way on the 3100.

You could try and grab on with a pliers and gently twist back and forth or I have always had good luck using a long flat head screwdrive and prying outwards on it from where it meets the spark plug.

If you happen to mess it up, I am sure I have a spair #2 wire from a 60k 3100 set that I messed up #4 and ended up buying a new set.

Bob, Rich, what causes a radiator hose to collapse? I've never seen that before.

You could try and grab on with a pliers and gently twist back and forth or I have always had good luck using a long flat head screwdrive and prying outwards on it from where it meets the spark plug.
We will give it a try, as soon as we can swim out to the car lol. Between the snow melt and the rain it's just a little to wet right now to try. :frown:

Bob, Rich, what causes a radiator hose to collapse? I've never seen that before.

Bad rad cap not allowing normal venting from the return bottle. When hot, system expansion forces coolant into the bottle past the cap. After it cools down, expansion "normally" draws the fluid back in from the bottle. The bad non-venting cap creates a vacuum in the cooling system.

Bad rad cap not allowing normal venting from the return bottle. When hot, system expansion forces coolant into the bottle past the cap. After it cools down, expansion "normally" draws the fluid back in from the bottle. The bad non-venting cap creates a vacuum in the cooling system.

Good to know. I thought the Cap would have something to do with it.

Bad rad cap not allowing normal venting from the return bottle. When hot, system expansion forces coolant into the bottle past the cap. After it cools down, expansion "normally" draws the fluid back in from the bottle. The bad non-venting cap creates a vacuum in the cooling system.
Except wouldn't that have been found in the pressure test they did (that I mentioned in the first post)?

Except wouldn't that have been found in the pressure test they did (that I mentioned in the first post)?

Normally yes. But inexpensive part to replace just to be sure.

Does this Vin "J" 3100 V6 still have the original LIM gaskets?

Does this Vin "J" 3100 V6 still have the original LIM gaskets?
As far as I know, the owners before me didn't change it, lets just say that they got rid of it because it needed a new Springs, traction bar and rotors and calipers, front brake line, etc. That is the only reason they thought it would cost to much to replace. Wasn't all that bad. After all the fixing was fixed it ran great no problems what so ever until as I mentioned in the first post it just started to overheat.

Anyother idea's on this. I know I am thinking of taking it to a GM Garage (a dealers garage) they said they could do diagnostics (ie pressure, electrical, etc) for about 60 dollars. Not thrilled paying for another testing but I am not entirely sure anymore that Sears did do anything that was worth 139.00 (rounded off) dollars. No leak Coolant tablets not included in price.

Recently we had to go to a doctors appointment, when we checked it before we left and at one point when stopped before the appointment (gas ect) the antifreeze was normal. But after we got home from the appointment several hours later (the car didn't move from the time of the appointment till we left), the antifreeze level went down half, thing is we don't know where it went. It wasn't on the ground (a caution thing I look for things like that when I leave a parking space it was dry and clean), and it wasn't coming out the back, and the oil looks good. No leaking to the eye under the hood.

We added more Coolant and we are going to check it this morning.

Before if it got hot we pulled over to cool it and you could hear it boil back to the reservior like normal, not its not really doing that like it should sometimes you have to remove the cap to get it to do it. so its more of a which will it be.

I really don't want it to be head gasket or intake .. what gets me still is when it gets to 210 or a tick or so above (before the last line) if you turn sometimes right or left, or hit a good bump the gauge drops. Mixed with all that I mentioned through out the thread. I am about ready to.... ugg :runaround::frown:

additional notes

I was looking around, and sometime between now and the time we changed the coolant (before winter) someone had stuck a piece of cardboard in the front end. (its the part next to the fog laps I found this on the web you see the top grill, then the license plate area, then the section below (http://www.newtakeoff.com/images/products/detail/grand_prix_front_bumper.jpg)) the cardboard was on only the passenger side of it and it wasn't just a little piece whoever did it stuffed a medium piece in there, it took a bit to work it out of there from the outside.

We checked the coolant and it wasn't really down all that much as it was yesterday (about half), this morning it was only a tad (as in tick) low), we bled it again to be safe. But still having problems overheating, when you sit idle and it goes up and you bled it, it goes down....

But thought I would add the additional not.

Except wouldn't that have been found in the pressure test they did (that I mentioned in the first post)?

They didn't use your cap during a system pressure test, did they?

Okay,

In your first post, you said,


Changed the Thermostate (more then once, one was defective)


Hey, maybe second one is bad.

You also said,

When the temp goes up you lose heat, when it comes down you get heat.


Theory - When you loose heat, coolant is not flowing. When you get heat, coolant is flowing. Thermostat controls this.

I would take the thermostat out and see what happens. Really.

Also,

"when it got warm enough for the thermostat to open the top hose callapsed, after it cooled down the hose went back to normal."

You need a new radiator cap. (Credit goes to andretti for that one. I tried to imagine what would cause that and couldn't think of it.)

Get the proper one and make sure the area where it mounts is clean before putting it in. Also, after you take out the thermostat, I would start the car in the driveway and let it run until it either gets hotter than seems safe, or the fans kick on. During this time, I would watch for leaks.

Is the radiator cap really bad? The radiator cap is rated at 15 psi. And that threshold is easy to overcome if the engine is overheating or you have unwanted pressure in the cooling system from the cylinders due to a bad head gasket or possibly LIM gaskets. On the GM 60 degree V6 engines 3100/3400 when you see excess coolant overflow in to the reservoir or out the reservoir vent bad head gaskets is a common issue.

Is the radiator cap really bad?
Doesn't look to be, I mean we could get a new one, but this one doesn't look bad at all, actually pretty good shape.
Thanks. We are taking it to a dealers garage they are doing diagnostics on it, pressure test, combustion test, testing the fans, bleeding the system again, testing the codes, etc.

I will let you know what they tell us, were not sure what sear did, twice they had the car in there for "testing" and yet they couldn't give a definitive of whats wrong with it, or close to it. except what I have already posted.

I really hate when a garage won't let you in there when they are doing testing, I realize there are dangers to being in there, but still I can't say that sears helped my thoughts of not liking it. Before I didn't have a problem, but after that with sears not real comfortable. I just deal lol.

They didn't use your cap during a system pressure test, did they?

Most coolant system pressure testers include an adapter that you put the cap on and pump up pressure. You basically read the pressure rating on the cap, pump it up to that and see if it holds and then you pump more and see if the cap will vent that excess pressure. If it failes either test it needs to be replaced.

If it were my car I'd replace it anyways GM caps arent the greatest plus its cheaper that paying someone to diagnose a bad cap.

Took it to the dealer garage (okay never bought anything there but anyway) here is what we found out, the cap was in good shape. Okay enough of the good news.

They ran the tests and found that it needs new heads and head gasket and of course if you need that you need a new intake as well. They said we could do it that way, or go a cheaper route and find another engine for it. We are looking for that engine getting the prices and comparing the two directions. Any advice?

Also we asked in looking for an engine to fit a 3.1 V6 2001 Pontiac Grand prix, if the motor had to be strictly for that year and make, or if any 3.1 V6 would work. .. One person said it had to be strictly for a pontiac grand prix because of the year and applications. Another said no that there were others [engines] that would fit it. and this is what he gave me as the others.

2000-02 Century, Grand Prix, Regal, or Malibu .. or 2000 Lumina
He said there might be some wiring differences but shouldn't be to much of a problem. Anything sound right to you folks?

Also I found two engines, one is $750.00 + 100.00 core (refunded with exchange), it has 104,000 miles ran good when it was brought in, 30 day warrenty.
The other $900.00 and it has 100,000 miles on it.

Seem reasonable?

I am seriously about to go :banghead: :lol2::runaround:

No, I'd just pull the old engine apart first. Check the heads and block for cracks and warps. If they check out, replace the head gaskets.

It makes no sence to me to replace a perfect running motor that just needs head gaskets. Not to mention if you tear it apart and then find out it is toast, you can always replace it.

Sounds like the dealer is trying to take you for a ride. May I ask, do you have the repair order? It should list on it exactly what they did for diagnosis.

Let us know what it says.

Are you sure you aren't willing to buy a 5.00 stant radiator cap first? It just doesnt make sence to me how bad head gaskets would cause a radiator hose to collapse. Usually when head gaskets fail you get extremly high pressure and bubbles in the cooling system because combustion pressure is higher than coolant pressure.

And $500.00+ for a used 3100 with 100k miles on it is a little spendy. You can find used ones on craigslist for about half that. No gurentees on them though. Or you could find a wrecked car with a good 3100, buy it, use the motor and part the rest out.

tblake Asked:

No, I'd just pull the old engine apart first. Check the heads and block for cracks and warps. If they check out, replace the head gaskets.
It makes no sence to me to replace a perfect running motor that just needs head gaskets. Not to mention if you tear it apart and then find out it is toast, you can always replace it.
Except I don't have a garage to just pull it and check it and put it back, or pull it and wait and get the other motor, right now (just for now) it's the only vehical I have and I have a heart patient that lives with me, If we got the new motor then switched them I have been told by those who have done this that it wouldn't take that long, but to just pull it check it and find that it is toast would take longer. Orginially we figured just change the gaskets (head and intake) and all would be fine, but if the heads are warped....

Sounds like the dealer is trying to take you for a ride. May I ask, do you have the repair order? It should list on it exactly what they did for diagnosis.
The dealer never offered an engine in its place, or to put one in, gave us a couple of suggestions on where to get one, but never offered to do the job. They said they could do it, but that it would be cheaper if we had someone who could do it which we do know several.

Here is what the order says.... I know they before getting paid had a paper with alot hand written on the back and it was a long list of what they did, but I don't have that, I have the paper that just give the labor, which says...

Temp Gauge is going into red, and can hear it gurgle,
Can feel power cutting down,
Checked over found head gaskets leaking,
Engine Would need dissasambled and checked may need heads or need a used engine.

Are you sure you aren't willing to buy a 5.00 stant radiator cap first? It just doesnt make sence to me how bad head gaskets would cause a radiator hose to collapse. Usually when head gaskets fail you get extremly high pressure and bubbles in the cooling system because combustion pressure is higher than coolant pressure.
Here in is the problem the hose doesn't always collapse it's like that time the radiator went down half but before and after that never did it again, the hose collaspes only some of the time not all of the time.. I can get a new cap but I can tell you around here it's more then five bucks for it. Apparently during their test the hose didn't collapse. Got me its tempermental car what can I say lol.

Hmmm. Yeah a used motor might be a good idea. Pulling the motor would probably be about the same amount of work as pulling the heads. I guess I just assumed you may want to try and save yourself some money by replacing your own head gaskets. If you do decide to pull the heads and find that one is cracked or warped, 3100 heads are pretty easy to come by. On the other hand, you may want to check with Ed Morads Parts company for a used motor. They deal mainly with 3800's, but I'd be willing to bet they have 3100's to sell you to.

http://www.moradpartscompany.com/

I would suspect a thermostat that is not opening completely. The water pump is drawing coolant from the radiator faster than the t-stat opening is allowing it to return. This would explain both the running hot and the collapsing upper hose.

As soon as the weather warms up (hopefully over easter weekend when its suppost to be around 70) we can take a look at it further. It's either too wet or to cold to be do this without a garage. Thanks.

I am still on the look out for any other idea's as well, until we know for sure.

I would suspect a thermostat that is not opening completely. The water pump is drawing coolant from the radiator faster than the t-stat opening is allowing it to return. This would explain both the running hot and the collapsing upper hose.
No offense, but his doesn't make sense. Where does the water go after it leaves the water pump if it cannot go through the t-stat?
What makes sense to me is, as the engine is running, the coolant is heating up and expanding. Once it reaches a certain pressure, it is released into the overflow container through the radiator cap. After the car fans kick on, or the vehicle starts moving, the water cools and contracts. If the radiator cap is defective and will not allow coolant to go back in from the overflow tank, a hose will collapse and there will be no more flow of coolant until it starts heating up again. It's kinda like that experiment you've probably seen where you heat up some water in a can and then put a cap on it and let it cool. The whole can is crushed by atmospheric pressure.

I can say this, there is no spots on the ground (even did the put a clean paper or box under the front end and see), also nothing out the tail pipe.

Okay I can check the cap out again, they did pressure tests on it (or so they all told me, ie sears and the other garage) The hose doesn't collaspe all the time, just some times.
When we did a fan jump (ie from the battery) the fans kicked on. They seem to be working both of them.

On this car when it starts to overheat (as it is a v6) it will kick down to 3 cyc, then over to the other 3 until it cools enough to kick back up to 6. If this made sense (my descript).

We can also remove the T-Stat and check and see if its defective, it would be only the (lets see the orginial, one bought defective, this current one) third one on there. If I need another one I am going to start swearing. :headshake

I do not relish trying the head gaskets if the last garage was correct. Nor do I relish trying to change a motor out, again no garage and even in 70 degree weather its still going to be damp on the ground. That and the lowest I could find was about $500.00 lower then 166000 miles that mine has on it. Of that amount I don't have. Top all that off with when the Garage said it was a leaking head gasket they didn't specify which one.

I could take it too one more Garage to be tested (they let you stand there I hear) they guy is said by more then 3 people of which one knows him personally that he knows Grand Prix like the back of his hand. Problem is getting into him he is busy, and I am afraid of what he would fine.

I remember the days of non computerized cars, when they were so much easier to fix. Oh The good ole days.

Okay anymore thoughts, questions, help. So far much appreciated for what I have gotten, and hopefully will get.

Rad cap is good, we traded the same PSI cap from another that is working good with the one on the car the other vehical didn't overheat and the car still did.

We did see steam from around the T-stat area, so we removed the T-stat put it back together and started it there was still steam.

neither time did the hose collasp as I said on that it doesn't do it all the time just here and there. It didn't do it today at all.

Looking like it could be either the Head gasket or intake, or my luck both.
Any other suggestions or thoughts?

What brand t-stat is in there? you had a known defective one? is this "new" one the same brand? is it devective also?

you could dunk the t-stat into boiling water to see if it opens.

Use this >>> http://www.barsproducts.com/1111.htm

I've used this with great success (so far anyway). This is some of Bars newer stuff and you don't need to flush afterwards. Don't use any other.Make sure to turn your heater on high when you use it. My heater still works fine.
I would do this first before buying a new engine. It cost about $30.00 for 24oz bottle. I got mine on sale for $24.00 at Advanced.

What brand t-stat is in there? you had a known defective one? is this "new" one the same brand? is it devective also?

you could dunk the t-stat into boiling water to see if it opens.
The first new t-stat we had in there was from Auto Zone (but when that didn't do it) but we heard that those from there were defective, brand through them was "Duralast" which cost us (rounded off) $14.00
After hearing that and not working, we figured go to another auto parts store, we have one called marshalls auto supply, normally very reliable with parts They go through appartly "Auto Value Auto parts store". There we got T-stat #2 logo is MotoRad.
If it is the T-stat the next store would be Advanced Auto.

Use this >>> http://www.barsproducts.com/1111.htm

I've used this with great success (so far anyway). This is some of Bars newer stuff and you don't need to flush afterwards. Don't use any other.Make sure to turn your heater on high when you use it. My heater still works fine.
I would do this first before buying a new engine. It cost about $30.00 for 24oz bottle. I got mine on sale for $24.00 at Advanced.
Well Sears claims that they put something in the Rad after they flushed it to go along with the anti-freeze, then they said with the "leaks" they found (though didn't specify where exactly other then the head gasket) they had us get stop leak Coolant Tablets (from a local GM dealership) where you crush them up and then put them in the Rad and it is suppost to act like a sealant. Well that clearly didn't work, actually it got worse after that was put in.

Before the flushing at sears we did put in I believe it was Bars or it could have been "Stop Leak" you put it in and cycle for five minutes, etc. That didn't work either.
As to a new engine, I don't have the money for another one, if it comes down to either a new engine or a expensive job on the car I would have to Junk it. Which I don't want to do, this is my car and I like it alot.

Here is the thing, we didn't have steam that we "seen" before yesterday, we started the car yesterday and after running for about 15 mins we turned it off because (we were testing the Rad cap as I explained yesterday) the temp still went up and there was steam around the T-stat area, (but on the vehical we put the cap from the car on the temp never went up).

So we took the car apart, then we removed the T-stat, put it back together and still had steam when you started it and it idled. From the same spot as before.

I don't know if either answer helps.

Go back and reread post #2 by HOTZ28. I believe he hits the nail on the head as to what your problem is.

As far as the sealer pellets you got from the dealer they are pretty much worthless. They were being used by the manufactures and dealers to prevent a pinhole leak on aluminum radiators while cars were waiting to be sold.

I waited a long time before I decided to use the heavy duty stop leak. My problem was slightly different than yours. I was putting in a little more than a quart of coolant a month. I couldn't tell where it was leaking. No puddles under the car ever. No coolant in the oil. I did see a little white smoke (steam) in the exhaust from time to time so I thought I had a head gasket or intake gasket leak. Finally I did a radiator pressure test. After the test I had a ton of white smoke in the exhaust for a little while so now I was sure I had a head gasket leak. My car's got some serious rust problems going on underneath from living near the beach so I wasn't going to put big money into this car and decided to roll the dice an try the Bars block and head stop leak. My car never had an overheating problem.
The Bars leak is the last resort but at this point what do you have to lose?

I got to thinking when testing something we got some stuff on the motor yesterday. SO today we started it, no steam (keep in mind no T-stat in it either) took it up the road then around the block basically the same milage it went before when it would go and peg. It stayed within normal range. Even tried it with the heat on full (well it would have to be full 1-4 doesn't work). No steam, right temp. The thing is like I said no T-stat in it.

We did the boil in a pan of water on that t-stat we just pulled from the car (the second one) and going all the way up to 190 and above on the therm and that t-stat wouldn't open, so apparently it too is defective.

Get this though, most of the time when running a car without a t-stat you will get cold air out of your heater, guess what I didn't get, instead it was blowing like it should if there were not problems, warm/hot.

I am thinking about getting another t-stat but at the rate they are or my luck is....

Try a superstant thermostat or else get a delco one. Keep in mind if the pan of boiling water was only 190, running temp on stock thermostats is 195, so you are not quite at the opening point.

14.00 for a t-stat is pretty steep, for that price you could order a 180 degree one for ZZP. I got one for my g/f's 3100 GP from them for about 8.00 shipped. Works good and helps keep the temp down especially in stop and go traffic.

According to our manual the t-stat is 180, thats what we bought. As to the temp on the therm, thats as high as it would go on there I thought it would blow the top off of it. trust me it was hot enough water lol.

We tried it again without the t-stat and that gauge sat perfectly where it should be didn't peg or anything normal temp and the heater still throwing heat when on. I don't pretend to get it, without a t-stat in it. my car like my luck is :screwy:

If your car runs at normal temps with the t-stat removed, then you have either a cooling system restriction or an air bubble. This could include a partially blocked radiator, worn water pump, or you have air trapped behind the t-stat when it is installed. I'm being lazy and don't want to read 3 pages of posts so I'll ask (possibly again), did you properly bleed the cooling system of air after each t-stat replacement?

Actually you would have found it in my first post lol. But to answer the question, yep we bled the system after each T-stat change, and several times while this last one was in. The garages swear they also bled it just to be safe. That things been bled so much that it could be mistaken for a donor lol.

Sears was suppost to have flushed the radiator I say it that way cause I have been told by alot of people and one that is a former employee that their idea of flushing is drain it and then put fresh anti-freeze in it with something that helps it last longer. Thats their flushing. Not what Sears told me they did but...

I was also told the water pump was good, again these were the garages..
from what we can see it looks okay. Hate to get one just to have to remove it if that isn't it and we have to junk it. GRR. Something to think about.

As to getting another T-stat I know we are going to Advanced Auto, hoping the third times the charm.

According to our manual the t-stat is 180, thats what we bought....

Interesting because when I was looking for a 180 stat for her car, I checked all over the place, auto value, oreilley's, advance, even the dealer. None of them had a 180 stat for that car. Mr. dealer guy found an "alternative temp" stat for it and said it should be a 180 degree, but actually it made the car run hotter, so needless to say it got trashed pretty quick.

Well Marshalls is apart of Auto Value (http://www.800autotalk.com/showpage.php?page_id=http://mfr.activant.com/alliance/servlet&menu=store.menu) That should show you the 180. if not "Parts Store, look up part, input info, and see options" mine is a 2001 pontiac Grand prix 3.1

Auto zone (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/parts/partsShelf.jsp?displayName=Thermostat&currentPage=1&categoryDisplayName=Cooling+%26+Heating&navValue=16300047&itemId=47-0&parentId=63-0) also has the 180.

Now both those stores I went to and they were defective.

Advanced autos website shows only 195 but I called the local store and they said they do carry the 180.

We tried it again without the t-stat and that gauge sat perfectly where it should be didn't peg or anything normal temp and the heater still throwing heat when on. I don't pretend to get it, without a t-stat in it. my car like my luck is :screwy:
Did the temp gauge vary at all? I mean, you sit still, it goes up, you drive it, it goes down? If you have a restriction in your radiator, you might be able to tell. When the car gets hot and the fans kick on to cool it, is there blazing hot air being blown by the fans? This would be the heat being exchanged by your radiator. If the air is not blazing hot, your radiator might be shot.

Did the temp gauge vary at all? I mean, you sit still, it goes up, you drive it, it goes down? If you have a restriction in your radiator, you might be able to tell. When the car gets hot and the fans kick on to cool it, is there blazing hot air being blown by the fans? This would be the heat being exchanged by your radiator. If the air is not blazing hot, your radiator might be shot.
Nope stayed in normal range the only varying it does at all sitting and driving, is that it moves slightly you have the little notches after 160, I think the highest its gone is 180, and stays that way. The heat is the same as before the problem started. The oil still looks good and normal, we check the antifreeze constant level normal.

The only difference is we still haven't put a t-stat back in it. We wanted to see if anything would happen, or would continue happening. Nope. We know that one we pulled out was defective, and I still have to buy a new one which 1. doesn't make me happy this is number three on buying, 2. at the rate my luck is going that will be bad to lol.

Not sure if any of that helped.

Well we decided to try and change the Water pump, and we got another t-stat (super stant brand), went to advanced auto. These are the ones we got. Stant Superstat Thermostat (http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Superstat-Thermostat-Stant_89020294-P_133_R%7CGRPCOOLAMS_299991744___) (Price was more in the store), and ASC New Water Pump (http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_New-Water-Pump-ASC_5421837-P_54_R%7CGRPCOOLAMS_581476984___) (That was the price we paid)

This whole time we were driving it the gauge never went past the normal range, wierd. But we decided that before we give up, and we didn't want to drive it that way all the time. I mean you could but didn't really want to. Especially the long distances we will be driving soon.

When we removed the old pump and compared it to the new one there weren't as many fins on it, they weren't wore down or broke, they just weren't there as if made that way, which I am guessing it was.

But we decided to try something more that didn't require pulling the motor out. The problem we ran into is that the Belt Tensioner broke (OY) so I have to get another one of those which isn't cheap lol.

But thought I would keep you up to date, and incase the answer above was not seen.

Regardless of the numbers on the guage, the temp during normal operation should be about 1/4 of the way up the guage, and it is normal for it to creep up towards 1/2 way during extended stop and go driving or on hot days. To insure there is no air trapped behind the t-stat, you may want to try drilling a 1/8" diameter hole in the flange of the t-stat prior to installation to help bleed the air out (I have no idea why there isn't a jiggle valve on this stat in the first place). Make sure you put the hole you drilled at the 12-O'clock position when you install the stat (as this engine's t-stat mounts with the flange positioned vertically, not horizontally) and see if your overheating issues go away.

Well the stat is already in, but if it doesn't work out that way we can pull it back out, make sure its still good and do that and put it back in.

Right now we just put the Tensioner on as the last one broke, now were putting the belts back on. Will let you know what is going on.

Good Luck!!!

Thanks!!

Oh when things go they really go, and all you can do is laugh. Got the Water pump on, got the tensioner on, t-stat in everything hooked up not one problem in any of that, tried it, started to go up in temp. Okay we still had to bleed it.

But noticed a chirping around the belt area, okay it loosens, we tighten, so we decide okay we will get back to that. So time to Bleed it, welll it got bleed all over the place, lol. We did this a thousand times, and the thousand and one the bleeder that you turn to bleed it, out just a bit to far and it blew the car got an antifreeze bath. We got out of the way and the car turned off.

Course chain reaction, when it went woosh the bleeder that you turn went flying, we have to find it now. we didn't watch it cause we were to busy getting the heck out of the way.

So basically now all that is left, (In Bold what we got done)
Find that Bleeder or get another (Found it)
Add more antifreeze and re-bleed it. (Done)
Then test it. (Ran nicely and dang fine heat, Temp Gauge steady & holding)
Give car bath lol (Going to do that, which will work for another test run)

Left to do...
Figure out why the chirping is happening. & How to stop it.
How to keep that dang belt tightened.

As the car is running but not hot yet, dump a couple gallons of water on the belt and pulley area. Chirping noise after replacing the waterpump is normal untill all the antifreeze dries up off the belt. Then with the belt on, go back over the 4 waterpump pulley bolts to make sure they are tight.

And to answer your question, the belt should have an automatic tension that does not need to be tightened.

As the car is running but not hot yet, dump a couple gallons of water on the belt and pulley area. Chirping noise after replacing the waterpump is normal untill all the antifreeze dries up off the belt. Then with the belt on, go back over the 4 waterpump pulley bolts to make sure they are tight.

And to answer your question, the belt should have an automatic tension that does not need to be tightened.

Will try that with the water, thanks.

as to your second this is the tensioner we got (http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Automatic-Belt-Tensioner,-Lt-Duty-Dayco_3670023-P_819_R%7CGRPBELTAMS_542613762___) - Dayco Automatic Belt Tensioner, Lt Duty. But it still acts like it is loose.

Hmmm, that looks right for a 3100.

Check to make sure it is on in the right direction, and that the belt is routed right. Match up the old one to the new one to make sure that both tensioners have the same size pulley.

Check to make sure it is on in the right direction, and that the belt is routed right. Match up the old one to the new one to make sure that both tensioners have the same size pulley.

Yep its on in the right direction. The belt route is correct double checked by a diagram of it from (I think its called Fixya), they look the same but will double check that last one. Checked it and it is the same size.

Well we took the car a bit farther, and it pegged out. So pulled over it cooled, coming back did it again. Problem on that not fixed. We might try the whole in the t-stat I don't know.

A friend says take the t-stat out and drive it until it goes, thing is I don't want to be in the middle of nowhere when it say, sorry tired, I am done.

that tensioner shows it comes with a new bolt, which normally indicates a difference in thickness at the mount location. Did you reuse the old bolt or the new one that came with the tensioner? If you tried reusing the old bolt, it may not hold the tensioner tight to the front cover. This could allow the locating pin to pop out of the front cover, which in turn would not allow the tensioner spring to exert tension on the belt.

that tensioner shows it comes with a new bolt, which normally indicates a difference in thickness at the mount location. Did you reuse the old bolt or the new one that came with the tensioner? If you tried reusing the old bolt, it may not hold the tensioner tight to the front cover. This could allow the locating pin to pop out of the front cover, which in turn would not allow the tensioner spring to exert tension on the belt.
Used new bolt.

We added up what we put into the car and close to 665.33. I can't afford to go much further, thats parts, garages, etc from when we got it to now. :banghead:

I just wanted to take the time to thank all you guys that tried to help us get the car fixed, as I said above it was just getting to the point of being too costly and frustrating to say the least.

The car has gone to the junk yard, and has officially been smashed. Watched it happen. It was a great car, loved it dearly. but like I said..

But again Thank you for the help you gave to us, we do appreciate it.

NO!!!

I would have paid you 30.00 for the plastic front air deflector if yours wasn't cracked!

I'm sorry. Hmm I can see if they removed any parts off the car if that will help. I know the people well, I am related to them. ;)

I wasn't out, but usually the guy that deals with the cars, he took out the battery, and tires, and gas tank, and I was inside talking to them, he is fast and good at getting parts off, I can see if he got that off. And what they want for it, I know they don't believe in gouging people especially in these times.

Is there any other that would interchange, just incase?

not sure, probably 97-03. It might not be worth it because it is sort of big and shipping would be unreasonable. Thanks for checking though.