Dyno Result for my GTS

Went to the Dyno today for the NASA season. We had a 358 hp at the Rear Wheels and 438 at the Fly Wheel reading and I don't think that's to bad. :smooch:

Is that a sealed Panoz GTS engine? Is that with all the updates allowed?

Seems like too much drivetrain loss. I would expect the 440 FWHP but the RWHP should be around 400. Right? How was FWHP determined when you are using a chassis dyno?

Our motors are 500 FWHP checked on an engine dyno and 450 RWHP on a chassis dyno.

My engine is from Elon, it is a 351 Winsor. The guy at the Dyno said you figure 20% to 25% for the FWHP. That is what I am basing this on.

do you have all of the Panoz engine upgrades? Long tube headers, proform carb upgrades, cowl induction, etc.?

Panoz claims more HP. I would have expected about 400 RWHP from a Elan sealed motor?

i swear we have a ton of drivetrain loss in these cars either from the rear end, tremec tranny or all of the above.

Still nice numbers comparable to what i'm running with The Panoz. Zooooooooom

For conversion from rear wheel hp to flywheel for Dynojet dyno's I use a conversion factor of x 1.17.

So on a Dynojet dyno if a sealed GTS engine is 440 flywheel hp it should be 375hp at the wheels.

What sort of dyno was it? What was the torque reading at the rear wheels? Likewise for your 427's Brian, what torque are they at the wheels when in 450 rwhp trim?

I'd think you can get from 358 to 375 by fiddling with jets and timing. That number sounds in the ballpark; dyno variations notwithstanding...

Attached are the last dyno sessions we did with both 390 carb and the 650 carb. As you can see from one car to the other and from dyno to the other the results VARY. This really annoys me since my class in NASA is a dyno based racing league and I cannot tune with any kind of confidence. Could you imagine me dyno tuning the car in Florida, buying a special built carb to get as close as you can to the allowed limit and then go to nationals in Utah and their dyno reads illegal? Now what? When we got dyno checked in Ohio at nationals their dyno read 420 RWHP with the 390 carb which is 30 HP less than the "SAME" dyno in Florida.


390 CFM #4 DynoJet
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt222/panozracing/dynosheets2008001.jpg

390 CFM #23 DynoJet
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt222/panozracing/dynosheets2008.jpg

650 CFM #4 DynoJet
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt222/panozracing/dynosheets2008003.jpg

650 CFM #4 Some other dyno (I forgot the brand)
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt222/panozracing/dynosheets2008004.jpg

390 CFM #4 Some other dyno (I forgot the brand)
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt222/panozracing/dynosheets2008005.jpg

I will get the info on the Dyno today and also go over to Elon and talk to them and see what they have to say. This engine only has 6 to 7 hours on it, so I'm sure Elon will talk to me about it.

How about some photos of the new car.

Attached are the last dyno sessions we did with both 390 carb and the 650 carb. As you can see from one car to the other and from dyno to the other the results VARY. This really annoys me since my class in NASA is a dyno based racing league and I cannot tune with any kind of confidence. Could you imagine me dyno tuning the car in Florida, buying a special built carb to get as close as you can to the allowed limit and then go to nationals in Utah and their dyno reads illegal? Now what? When we got dyno checked in Ohio at nationals their dyno read 420 RWHP with the 390 carb which is 30 HP less than the "SAME" dyno in Florida.

Thanks Brian, very interesting. Yes it is pretty hard to run on the edge with inconsistencies like that. I guess all you can do is learn from year to year and anticipate the benefit offered by one dyno over another. The inconsistencies are the very reason I always use the same dyno every time I tune the car.

Love that 427 torque curve. I am guessing it would be pretty hard to harness that much torque with DOT's over an endurance race - even with the likes of 315's. Rear tyre heat/wear would definitely be more of an issue!!

Kel.

Went to Elan and talked to a very impressive guy that showed me all around Elan. He says that my engine should at least make 400 hp at the rear wheels. Will start the weekend at R A and work on it as we go. The Elan pro says it could be the timing, fuel mixture or the jets in the carb. Will give update and pics when available.

Went to Elan and talked to a very impressive guy that showed me all around Elan. He says that my engine should at least make 400 hp at the rear wheels. Will start the weekend at R A and work on it as we go. The Elan pro says it could be the timing, fuel mixture or the jets in the carb. Will give update and pics when available.

Do you have long tubes? i forget?

I'm not sure. I will let everyone Sunday how we do. It will be and allways is a great weekend to load up on Sunday as good as you look unloading on Friday.

Went to Elan and talked to a very impressive guy that showed me all around Elan. He says that my engine should at least make 400 hp at the rear wheels. Will start the weekend at R A and work on it as we go. The Elan pro says it could be the timing, fuel mixture or the jets in the carb. Will give update and pics when available.

Getting an extra 42hp from timing and jetting is possible but the setup would have to be quite a way out now. Going from 302 to 347 my engine made 373hp / 368tq with the carb jetted to suit the 302. 1 size up on primary jets & 2 sizes up on mains and the 347 was up to 388hp / 392tq (with aircleaner fitted).

Some of the difference may be from a different type of dyno or something about the way the car was dynoed such as running the car without the air cleaner on, not properly up to temperature etc (my car picks up approx 15ftlbs of torque and 10hp at the wheels with the aircleaner & cold air tray fitted). I wouldnt sweat it, main thing will be that it pulls well on the track and has similar pace to other well sorted GTS's.

Kel.

Love that 427 torque curve. I am guessing it would be pretty hard to harness that much torque with DOT's over an endurance race - even with the likes of 315's. Rear tyre heat/wear would definitely be more of an issue!!

Kel.

We love the torque. That was the goal. beat em all out of the turns...I love it. Lets you recover quickly if you mess up a little.

Rear tire wear is tough. Heat is not too bad. they run pretty even to the front tires around 190 deg. F. We run 325 slicks on the rear and run them for about 2hrs of track time and then take them off. Hard on the wallet but difficult to drive 10-10ths looking for grip. The tires have plenty of rubber left we just don't see the grip they had when new. The fronts we run twice as much before swapping.

We love the torque. That was the goal. beat em all out of the turns...I love it. Lets you recover quickly if you mess up a little.

Rear tire wear is tough. Heat is not too bad. they run pretty even to the front tires around 190 deg. F. We run 325 slicks on the rear and run them for about 2hrs of track time and then take them off. Hard on the wallet but difficult to drive 10-10ths looking for grip. The tires have plenty of rubber left we just don't see the grip they had when new. The fronts we run twice as much before swapping.

Yes, I have gone from the 5.0 to the 347 for similar reasons. The 6 hour I will be running again this year is a very mixed speed field so it is not unusual to pass 5 - 10 cars per lap. You only need to get slowed slightly to loose a second here and there. The extra torque will certainly help get back up to speed that much quicker.

On another note Brian, Motorsport New Zealand have just announced a National endurance championship. This will take the format (at this stage)of a single 4 hour endurance race. The Panoz will fit the open class which will be stacked with about 10 - 15 factory race 997 GT3's and other space framed and hybrid cars. There are a number of International drivers in the 997's, so will be a very fast field. How do you rate your current car speed with the latest factory race prepped 997 (480+hp, 6 speed sequential, slicks etc) with a serious driver at the wheel? Just trying to get a feel for mod state/cost to be competitive in this field.

Kel.

The 997's are out of our reach IMHO. We mod'ed my car to run with the 996's and the ST1 NASA group. I heard the 2010 GT3 is even better then previous 997's which should compound the issue.

The issue is they are LIGHT (Something like 2600 lbs.), have great handling, they are very nimble, have tons of RPMS to use (8500 RPM redline), great grip off the turns, 100+ years of engineering development, on and on.....

I may have similar HP but the 200lbs is a killer, the solid rear axle in the GTS, advanced aero of the 997, advanced suspension geometry in the 997, sequential shifting in the 997, etc are in a diff. league.

I think to run with the current 997 you will have to do what that German guy did to his GTS (Dan had posted pics on a diff. thread). Which for me is cost prohibitive.

Also, this is tough to answer....I have seen what a pro in a 997 can do at tracks I go to. I have not seen what a pro can do in a GTS or my version of a GTS. The pro's in a GTS run times I can only dream about. The pros run times that all my peers in 997/996's only dream about as well. I have pondered this myself. Just because we beat a driver is not a fair display of his cars or my cars abilities. I am hardly that good. I would love to hire a pro to jump in my car and show me what can be done!

Comments?

The 997's are out of our reach IMHO. We mod'ed my car to run with the 996's and the ST1 NASA group. I heard the 2010 GT3 is even better then previous 997's which should compound the issue.

The issue is they are LIGHT (Something like 2600 lbs.), have great handling, they are very nimble, have tons of RPMS to use (8500 RPM redline), great grip off the turns, 100+ years of engineering development, on and on.....

I may have similar HP but the 200lbs is a killer, the solid rear axle in the GTS, advanced aero of the 997, advanced suspension geometry in the 997, sequential shifting in the 997, etc are in a diff. league.

I think to run with the current 997 you will have to do what that German guy did to his GTS (Dan had posted pics on a diff. thread). Which for me is cost prohibitive.

Also, this is tough to answer....I have seen what a pro in a 997 can do at tracks I go to. I have not seen what a pro can do in a GTS or my version of a GTS. The pro's in a GTS run times I can only dream about. The pros run times that all my peers in 997/996's only dream about as well. I have pondered this myself. Just because we beat a driver is not a fair display of his cars or my cars abilities. I am hardly that good. I would love to hire a pro to jump in my car and show me what can be done!

Comments?

I have considered doing the same Brian (getting a pro into the car) to see where the limit is for the car. Our 10/10ths may well be their 7/10ths.

I look at V8 Touring cars as a guide over here as they have similar hp/tq, weight and rubber in endurance trim to the Panoz (C of G is in my favour). We were running within 1 - 2 seconds of these cars with the 5.0 but we were probably 40hp down on them. The 6 hour race I run in has some pro drivers in V8 Touring type cars but it is hard to know what additional mods they have done to exactly compare (some run 427 type engines and are 3 - 4 secs a lap faster).

Agree, the only way is to get a pro into the car and let them rip.