Motor Build

Ok so here are the components and pics.

New BOSS 302 Block.
327 Stroker kit from Keith Craft all Forged, internally balanced
Aluminum flywheel
Heads are Alan Root, prototypes to the J302s of the late 80s (ported nicely)
Intake is an Edlebrock predecessor to RPM. All port matched with the heads.
COMP CAM that will make max HP at about 5800 RPM. So pretty mild but that is what I wanted for my B+ motor.
Race 750 Holley

I wanted to get it dyno'd prior to Sebring but ran out of time so we gonna stay conservative on the timing and run it little rich. We will get a good dyno tune after the exhaust work is done after Sebring.

Enjoy. (gonna have Eric posts the pics)

Since this was sort of a group project, I'll add some info:2cents: intake is F4B dual plane that had the runners welded to raise them and enlarge them significantly to match the porting on the worked over AR heads. The intake and heads are vintage pieces that were extensively modified in the late 80's to overcome design limitations back when there wasn't much to choose from for small block Fords. The hand work on these is pure old school and should prove to be comparable to the current stuff. The roller rockers are Comp Cams Pro Magnum 1.6 stainless, all the head components are Crane, the cam is actually a vintage Engle hydraulic roller that has .533 lift on both sides with duration and overlap designed for peak power at 5800 and max torque from 3000 to 5500, fat and flat on pump gas. The concept is corner off grunt with loads of longevity. It is going to need the Kel designed 8 into 1 equal length header and exhaust system to reach it's potential- coming later to a track near you. Since Tom is going from the 5.0 GTRA motor with a 650 and Performer intake, it should be a bump of about 100 hp minimum even before the tune and exhaust work. Going to Sebring first weekend in March to see and hear it run:rofl:

Mike

Congrats on the new motor. Keep us posted on how it does.

David

i'll be posting pics shortly...

CAR PORN!!

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108547&g2_serialNumber=1

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108539&g2_serialNumber=1

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108523&g2_serialNumber=1

Here is the rest of them...

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=108515

Ok so here are the components and pics.

New BOSS 302 Block.
327 Stroker kit from Keith Craft all Forged, internally balanced
Aluminum flywheel
Heads are Alan Root, prototypes to the J302s of the late 80s (ported nicely)
Intake is an Edlebrock predecessor to RPM. All port matched with the heads.
COMP CAM that will make max HP at about 5800 RPM. So pretty mild but that is what I wanted for my B+ motor.
Race 750 Holley

I wanted to get it dyno'd prior to Sebring but ran out of time so we gonna stay conservative on the timing and run it little rich. We will get a good dyno tune after the exhaust work is done after Sebring.

Enjoy. (gonna have Eric posts the pics)

Awesome, look forward to hearing how it all goes. The bottom end should be pretty stout and capable of 7500 rpm+ if you wanted to lean on it in future. Is the crank a forged Eagle peice? Did Keith Craft do the balancing, machining and block prep? I have used Keith to source all of my 5.0 upgrade parts to date and found he and his team to be very helpful.

I just got my 347 started for the first time last night so will post some info on this when I have had it dynoed which should be in the next week or so. Will baseline it on the dyno against the modded 5.0 and then will hit the track and do some back to back testing on the track that we did the 6 hour on with the 5.0.

Hope Sebring goes well, dont forget to do a "plug colour" test run first up before you lean on the engine.

Kel

Kel,

Thanks for the advice. I got to hear it today. I like it, it is loud and purrs like a kitten and I am sure it will roar as well.

All the components are forged. Eagle crank and rods.

More to follow.

What event are you doing at Sebring?

What event are you doing at Sebring?


http://www.hsrrace.com/

On the home page baby!!!! YEA HA!

do you w2w in HSR?

What class is the panoz C15?

Is there competition for the panoz like cup cars and vipers?

I have never looked at HSR and need the scoop!

do you w2w in HSR?

What class is the panoz C15?

Is there competition for the panoz like cup cars and vipers?

I have never looked at HSR and need the scoop!


Yes it is W2W which always makes me nervous. Last Dec was my first time to do anything like that and well I love it. But I am a NOOB!.

I am not sure where the GTS would fall out in terms of classes because of the slicks. There is no series for them. They do have a ex NASCAR group and they are starting a Cayman series. There are many porsches in HSR and I am sure you would be in the middle of them. As near as I can tell they try to group cars well in terms of performance and time. I am in GT5x becuase I have a GTRA with DOT type track tires.

Check the site for rules and such.

The folks here are great and the racing is pretty darn clean.

I am also going to do SVRA which is a sister group with HSR but more of a stickler to historically correctness I think.

http://www.hsrrace.com/

v/r

Ok NOW THE REST of the story.

After not having enough time to really dyno tune the carb and chasing the right jetting with old school techniques we got it very drivable and felt really good. We were taking all precautions to be conservative given that we did not have any dyno time.

So the car was doing very well and I loved the extra power. I turned a personal best time of 2:34.3 at Sebring during a 8 lap race Friday night. Before my best time was 2:42 with the stock motor.

Saturday morning in the first race after about 5 laps of an 7 lap race the motor quit on me. I thought I had just thrown the serp belt. Because the only indication something weird was going on was the steering became rough and the motor quit...

After checking the car over we found that the dampner was wiggling. So me thinks the forged crank let go. I never rev'd the motor over 6 once we felt it was broke in.

I will let everyone know what we find out when it gets torn apart. Devin I feel you buddy.

More to follow.

v/r
Tom

NOOOOOOOoooooooooo, say it aint so? Are these Panoz cursed lately?

Were you running the "stock Panoz oil pan?

Did panoz do anything to the pans to add more baffling?

Could the dampener just be loose? I have torn up a few keys on other motors in my day and caused issues with the crank sensors...

I won't know anything about the key and such until we tear the motor down.

I will say this...when we tried to take the crank bolt out we could not even using a breaker bar and a floor jack handle as the cheater bar. WE would hve broke a socket first.

I was using the stock pan.

v/r
Tom

NOOOOOOOoooooooooo, say it aint so? Are these Panoz cursed lately?

Were you running the "stock Panoz oil pan?

Did panoz do anything to the pans to add more baffling?

Eric, the stock Panoz pan for the 5.0 is a Canton pan that has gated vertical baffles surrounding the pick up, a windage tray and a crank scraper. A reasonably effective setup for a conventional wet sump. (i.e. unless you are going to swinging pickups etc).

Kel.

Eric, the stock Panoz pan for the 5.0 is a Canton pan that has gated vertical baffles surrounding the pick up, a windage tray and a crank scraper. A reasonably effective setup for a conventional wet sump. (i.e. unless you are going to swinging pickups etc).

Kel.

Kel that was actually my point, i figured Panoz put some nice precautions in these motors to prevent damage and wasn't sure if when the motor was built he used a different pan to enhance the "bling factor".


My 4.6L pan was a frankenstein looking pan, looked like a hakced up stock, but never even looked inside when i sold it to see what they did.

I need to find a swinging pickup for my LS1, know anywhere that sells them? :-D

Kel that was actually my point, i figured Panoz put some nice precautions in these motors to prevent damage and wasn't sure if when the motor was built he used a different pan to enhance the "bling factor".


My 4.6L pan was a frankenstein looking pan, looked like a hakced up stock, but never even looked inside when i sold it to see what they did.

I need to find a swinging pickup for my LS1, know anywhere that sells them? :-D

Yes, they are commercially sold over here but for Ford & Holden engines Eric, not LS1's that I am aware of. They are used for a class of car that must run a wet sump.

I would skip this evolution anyway (swinging pickups) and go straight to dry sump. Anything else is really a compromise.

Yes, they are commercially sold over here but for Ford & Holden engines Eric, not LS1's that I am aware of. They are used for a class of car that must run a wet sump.

I would skip this evolution anyway (swinging pickups) and go straight to dry sump. Anything else is really a compromise.

Doesn't the holden have an Lsx motor in it?

But yeah I am looking into a dry sump kit... But trying to do as many other things as possible until that time comes.

4 point baffled/trap door pan, crank scraper... already have the accusump.

Doesn't the holden have an Lsx motor in it?

But yeah I am looking into a dry sump kit... But trying to do as many other things as possible until that time comes.

4 point baffled/trap door pan, crank scraper... already have the accusump.

Yes the Commodore does run the LS engine but the V8 Touring car class has to run the Holden cast iron blocked engine as there is no late model Ford push rod V8 to enable a degree of parity. The Holdens run a 308 cube engine and the Ford Falcons run a 302. This is the class that I got the pics of the split 302 from. Hoping not to have some of my own any time soon................

The smart thing Tom did was not to try to restart it after he felt the belt go.

The damper was a new Fluidampr (zero balance), the belt looked like new in pre race inspection and the tensioner and pulleys were all fine. There were no unusual noises when the motor was cranked in the paddock after the belt was replaced. It fired for a few seconds and was immediately shut off when the dampner wobble was noticed. The odd thing was the inability to break the dampner bolt loose with an 18 inch breaker bar and a four foot cheater.

If the crank is broken, it is might be forward of the timing set or it wouldn't have started and run for those couple of seconds. That would make one think it is the dampner, but the front seal was leaking at this point and when looking at the back of the dampner, when it was wiggled, the entire dampner wiggled as a unit including the snout into the seal and front cover. The only visible damage to the dampner was some finish scrapped off where it rubbed the timing pointer from the wobble. Since it started and ran briefly, the timing must be pretty close. I'm thinking that the play is between the snout of the crank and the inside of the dampner or the crank is broken at a significant angle, forward of the number 1 main so that the front cover is pressing it together so the timing gear and dampner still move with the crank. Either guess is hard to figure given the lack of load on the crank snout and the dampner.

As Tom said only a teardown will resolve the mystery. May be it's the dreaded muffler bearing.

Mike

The smart thing Tom did was not to try to restart it after he felt the belt go.

The damper was a new Fluidampr (zero balance), the belt looked like new in pre race inspection and the tensioner and pulleys were all fine. There were no unusual noises when the motor was cranked in the paddock after the belt was replaced. It fired for a few seconds and was immediately shut off when the dampner wobble was noticed. The odd thing was the inability to break the dampner bolt loose with an 18 inch breaker bar and a four foot cheater.

If the crank is broken, it is might be forward of the timing set or it wouldn't have started and run for those couple of seconds. That would make one think it is the dampner, but the front seal was leaking at this point and when looking at the back of the dampner, when it was wiggled, the entire dampner wiggled as a unit including the snout into the seal and front cover. The only visible damage to the dampner was some finish scrapped off where it rubbed the timing pointer from the wobble. Since it started and ran briefly, the timing must be pretty close. I'm thinking that the play is between the snout of the crank and the inside of the dampner or the crank is broken at a significant angle, forward of the number 1 main so that the front cover is pressing it together so the timing gear and dampner still move with the crank. Either guess is hard to figure given the lack of load on the crank snout and the dampner.

As Tom said only a teardown will resolve the mystery. May be it's the dreaded muffler bearing.

Mike

Mike, I have seen race engines with cranks broken in the first web start up and run but with a significant knock and the damper wobbling as described. Depends on the break pattern and if the two parts of the crank "key together" and drive. Probably not what you wanted to hear.

This type of breakage is quite common in some Chev 383 aftermarket cranks and also in some Holden stroker cranks. Most of the broken ones that I have seen have been cast cranks that have been revved in race conditions above 6,000 rpm.

Tom,

I was there and saw it that sucks. I just emailed Steve wondering what happened.
I left because I knew Garys guys were not happy campers.

Jim

Ok bottom of motor is apart. The first piston throw cracked about 1/2 way up toward the rod bearing. I sent eric the pictures. I appears that there was no other damage. The first main bearing was trashed there is a picture of that as well. I am having them double check everything to be sure. But I must have had some divine help on this one.

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108709&g2_serialNumber=1

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108707&g2_serialNumber=1

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108705&g2_serialNumber=1

made me sad just posting them!!

Ok bottom of motor is apart. The first piston throw cracked about 1/2 way up toward the rod bearing. I sent eric the pictures. I appears that there was no other damage. The first main bearing was trashed there is a picture of that as well. I am having them double check everything to be sure. But I must have had some divine help on this one.

What has the supplier had to say about the failure? The break looks like it is related to material spec / surface finish. There are areas of the throw that look very poorly finished - especially compared to Eagles glossy pictures of their forged items!!

Is the crank clearly marked as an Eagle item with their brand logo and part numbers?

yeah i doesnt look like any eagle product I've ever seen...

Was the journal that cracked the same one they welded on?
http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108529&g2_serialNumber=1

Seems like it saw a lot of heat!


I'd venture to say that the crank was warped and under serious load the metal fatigued and cracked. Just a guess, any chance you can take some better quality pics of the whole crank(all the way around where it cracked?)

Is this the same crank? did the shop who installed it do some serious work/"polishing"/balancing?

Looks good here
http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108521&g2_serialNumber=1

A little less refined here...

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108527&g2_serialNumber=1

Ok NOW THE REST of the story.

After not having enough time to really dyno tune the carb and chasing the right jetting with old school techniques we got it very drivable and felt really good. We were taking all precautions to be conservative given that we did not have any dyno time.

So the car was doing very well and I loved the extra power. I turned a personal best time of 2:34.3 at Sebring during a 8 lap race Friday night. Before my best time was 2:42 with the stock motor.

Saturday morning in the first race after about 5 laps of an 7 lap race the motor quit on me. I thought I had just thrown the serp belt. Because the only indication something weird was going on was the steering became rough and the motor quit...

After checking the car over we found that the dampner was wiggling. So me thinks the forged crank let go. I never rev'd the motor over 6 once we felt it was broke in.

I will let everyone know what we find out when it gets torn apart. Devin I feel you buddy.

More to follow.

v/r
Tom

OMG - Tom, so sorry to hear/see this.... If I can offer a conversation of sorrow, feel free to give me a call. After ripping apart the entire motor to scraps on mine, I also think the new HV Oil Pump gave out too - it was locked tight when I pulled it off the engine - had to open it up to move the gears.... so, hell, could be 6 different reasons mine gave way... oil pan, detonation, oil pump, junk motor, cracked block and just plain ole luck..

Is this the same crank? did the shop who installed it do some serious work/"polishing"/balancing?

Looks good here
http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108521&g2_serialNumber=1

A little less refined here...

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=108527&g2_serialNumber=1



Yes those are the pictures of the same crank. The shop did do some polishing/prep work. The crank came internally balanced so they did some minor work I certainly would not call it "serious".

I will try to get some better pictures with my REAL camera sometime this week.

I have not heard back yet from Keith Craft yet. I expect I will today.

Thanks for all the dialogue.

WOW. Lucky that didn't come all the way apart and try to escape through the block.

Hello guys,

I am from the Philippines. I have problem with my car, It seems that sometimes It automatically turns off. My car is kinda Old, a toyota Coralla. This was my fathers car bought on 1999. Now the car belongs to me.

What seems to be the problem when a cars engine automatically turns off? do I have to modify any of the parts? I'm not really good with cars.

Hello guys,

I am from the Philippines. I have problem with my car, It seems that sometimes It automatically turns off. My car is kinda Old, a toyota Coralla. This was my fathers car bought on 1999. Now the car belongs to me.

What seems to be the problem when a cars engine automatically turns off? do I have to modify any of the parts? I'm not really good with cars.

It would be better to ask this question in the Toyota / Corolla section of Automotive Forums where other owners of this type of car may be able to help you.

Really sucks when you pay good money for good parts etc. and have crap like this happen.

Hello guys,

I am from the Philippines. I have problem with my car, It seems that sometimes It automatically turns off. My car is kinda Old, a toyota Coralla. This was my fathers car bought on 1999. Now the car belongs to me.

What seems to be the problem when a cars engine automatically turns off? do I have to modify any of the parts? I'm not really good with cars.


:loser: :banghead: :meant: you might want to post in the 'Yota section.

Yes those are the pictures of the same crank. The shop did do some polishing/prep work. The crank came internally balanced so they did some minor work I certainly would not call it "serious".

I will try to get some better pictures with my REAL camera sometime this week.

I have not heard back yet from Keith Craft yet. I expect I will today.

Thanks for all the dialogue.

Tom, the additional pictures explain a lot more. The no. 1 throw rework is not of an acceptable standard.

This was a fatigue failure waiting to happen for a number of reasons - reduced cross sectional area to take power/rotating loads, poor surface finish (on edges as well as flat areas) providing a haven of crack initiation sites, hard nitrided outer shell has been ground off the crank reducing strength etc etc.

I have seen pictures of other very very similar failures to this on the web in 5.0 based Ford strokers. As far as I can recall these have all been engines where the crank has been zero balanced. They have had identical rework in the area that your crank has (some looked like they had been done with a disc grinder) on the no 1 throw. End result has been the same - cracked through the throw.

I know you probably dont want to hear this but the block should now also be checked. The front main will have taken a beating holding this together so should now be checked for alignment and concentricity at the very least. If it is not checked and another crank is thrown in you may have bearing issues with this main.

Tom, the additional pictures explain a lot more. The no. 1 throw rework is not of an acceptable standard.

This was a fatigue failure waiting to happen for a number of reasons - reduced cross sectional area to take power/rotating loads, poor surface finish (on edges as well as flat areas) providing a haven of crack initiation sites, hard nitrided outer shell has been ground off the crank reducing strength etc etc.

I have seen pictures of other very very similar failures to this on the web in 5.0 based Ford strokers. As far as I can recall these have all been engines where the crank has been zero balanced. They have had identical rework in the area that your crank has (some looked like they had been done with a disc grinder) on the no 1 throw. End result has been the same - cracked through the throw.

I know you probably dont want to hear this but the block should now also be checked. The front main will have taken a beating holding this together so should now be checked for alignment and concentricity at the very least. If it is not checked and another crank is thrown in you may have bearing issues with this main.

Thanks Kel, I am on it.
Tom

Thanks Kel, I am on it.
Tom

Tom, any progress with determing cause of failure and resolving?

Thanks Kel, I am on it.
Tom

Tom, whats the progress? Has this been resolved with the builder? What are you piecing together to replace the shortblock?

Tom, whats the progress? Has this been resolved with the builder? What are you piecing together to replace the shortblock?

Kel,
Talked to Tom today. Eagle replaced the crank and has the old one. They did not tell him what the issue was. The only damage to the motor was the crank and front seal and bearing. The builder is doing a complete tear down, line hone and reassembly. Tom is planning on a visit tomorrow to check progress. I think the plan is to run it in on an engine dyno and give it a good tune. The 8 into 1 Kelasaurus headers and exhaust system has been in the works for several weeks and should be nearing completion. The dyno is tied to being able to tune with the headers. He should get some word on the progress on those as well.

Mike

Kel,
Talked to Tom today. Eagle replaced the crank and has the old one. They did not tell him what the issue was. The only damage to the motor was the crank and front seal and bearing. The builder is doing a complete tear down, line hone and reassembly. Tom is planning on a visit tomorrow to check progress. I think the plan is to run it in on an engine dyno and give it a good tune. The 8 into 1 Kelasaurus headers and exhaust system has been in the works for several weeks and should be nearing completion. The dyno is tied to being able to tune with the headers. He should get some word on the progress on those as well.

Mike

Hey Mike, great to hear that the situation has been resolved satisfactorily. Will be interested to see how you go with the exhaust fit up and how it goes power numbers wise. As you will have seen the exhaust performed well again when I streched my engine up to 347.

Select your muffler/s carefully though Mike as I have noticed my car has quite a bit more "bark" to it now with the 347. If I have problems with breaking the 95db rule I may look at using 2 3" Spintech mufflers and merging after these into a single 4" pipe. I have used Spintechs before and they are compact and really kill noise well.

Kel.