Told you's so!!

Back when I had a 2005 Chevrolet V6 Malibu with electric variable-
assist steering.

AP Writeup 2/17/2010:

" . . . But the decision to investigate the Corolla offered further
evidence that the automaker is exposed to heightened scrutiny of its
cars and trucks.


Some Corolla drivers said they had difficulty keeping the vehicle
straight, especially at higher speeds. They reported having to fight
the wheel to keep the car from wandering between lanes.

Jerry Josefy, a 71-year-old retired farmer and mechanic from
Grandfield, Okla., said he noticed problems with the steering on his
2009 Corolla when he drove it home after buying it last year.

He took it back to the dealer for repairs, but the steering trouble
persisted. Josefy still drives the car, but said it requires constant
attention to make sure it stays straight.

"It wants to wander all the time," he said. "You could have a wreck
with it if you don't keep your eyes on the road."

Smaller, less-expensive vehicles such as the 2009 and 2010 Corolla use
electric-assist power steering. They are usually equipped with power
steering systems that are aided by a small electric motor, a system
known as electric-assist steering.

The motor essentially helps align the steering wheel with the movement
of the tires. The system is cheaper to install than steering systems
that rely on hydraulics.

Problems can arise if the motor is out of sync with the steering
wheel, which could potentially cause the vehicle to wander without any
turning of the wheel, he said.

"Car companies work on it a lot," said Jim De Clerck, a professor in
the Michigan Technological University's mechanical engineering
department and a former General Motors engineer. "It is a pretty well-
known customer-satisfaction issue."


Toyota said the steering problem could be related to the braking
system or tires. Improperly aligned tires, for example, can be a
source of steering complications, De Clerck said. . . ."


Cheaper than conventional hydraulic PS? It's ALWAYS ABOUT the MOW-
NAY!! >:(



BAN



ELECTRIC POWER STEERING



NOW!!

(except on Golf Carts...)

Its also fuel economy. Less load on engine as not running a power steering pump constantly. Haven't driven the toyota system but have driven all the chevy and nissan systems. Have a great road feel compared to hydraulic systems in my opinion. Quieter and no leaks.

And having changed a rack and pinion on a Sentra, MUCH easier to do :D. A lot lighter also. I imagine a lot of the problem is when something gets moved and the assist computer's placement of wheel center is not where wheel center is and it tries to correct it. Working on KIA, a couple customers have had their vehicles aligned and had similar problems. KIA uses a light to alert the driver, and it is a simple matter of resetting the center to center in the computer.

The original post reminds me of the debate in the early days of commercial electricity. Many wanted to use Direct Current (DC) and ban the use of Alternating Current (AC). DC was advertised as being safer, public displays of electrocutions of elephants were even performed to get their point across. What's in the houses today? Alternating current. Why? Primarily because it's cheaper to distribute since it's easier to step up and step down with lower loss and less expense. What's safer to the consumer? Sure, DC is safer, but how many people do you hear complain about power in their houses compared with complaints about the cost of the power in their houses? Just think what it would be like if the cost was magnitudes higher due to safer DC.

Another modern version of this controversy is the research in to hydrogen fuel cells. Opponents think Hindenburg and consider the hydrogen tanks an explosion risk. Don't these people also realize that a punctured gas tank is also an explosion hazard!?!

As mentioned above, there are several benefits to electric assist power steering and the transition to electric assist is being driven in large part by the EPA, not directly the auto manufacturers. The engineers work hard to come up with creative ways to meet the strict EPA restrictions AND safety requirements (added weight from ABS, stability control, airbags, impact safety, etc.). It's difficult to add weight and improve fuel economy. In these cases the engineers are doing a pretty good job of giving us our cake and letting us eat it too. But as with everything, there is a learning curve. It's a good thing we didn't all stop trying to walk after the first time we fell down.

-Rod

There simply is no way to convince me that EPS is a good idea. There are other ways to green a car, and most of them have been done - electronic fuel management, three decades of aerodynamic refinement(Europe was using organic form headlights a decade before they were legal here!), weight-saving unibody construction, constant improvements in radial tire rolling resistence, etc.

Steering is something I don't want touched. If EPS was properly tested and issues of road feel were addressed long before implementing in cars, then I might be convinced. It's time to go back to the drawing board with electric power steering.

Sad...I thought I'd find some sympathy here on AF . com, but it's not the bare-elbowed greasy finger-nailed classic rock blaring automotive discussion group I was expecting. ;)

Or maybe we are more accepting of 'new fangled technology'. Most of the vehicles I've driven with true electric power steering were no different in feel than those that use hydraulic. It sucks that your 2005 Malibu didn't have quite the feel that you wanted, but it has been 6 years. It won't be too much longer before we have electric calipers and solenoids instead of camshafts.

Or maybe we are more accepting of 'new fangled technology'. Most of the vehicles I've driven with true electric power steering were no different in feel than those that use hydraulic. It sucks that your 2005 Malibu didn't have quite the feel that you wanted, but it has been 6 years. It won't be too much longer before we have electric calipers and solenoids instead of camshafts.

There are a lot of reviews out there noting the "numbness" of the 2004 - 2007 generation Malibu's steering. It was just not a good execution.

And BTW, what would you describe as "good steering feel"? "The feel that I wanted"?? No offense intended Rah but am I the only person who drives a car three planets out from the Sun? Many affecionados of "driving for the sake of driving" know exactly what I'm talking about. And quite honestly I'd pick my 2008 Kia Optima at 70mph over the '05 Malibu at 50 any day. :D

It sounds like you're basing all your issues with EPS on that one vehicle, the Malibu. Have you confirmed that your 2008 Kia does not have EPS? I suspect it does, at least electric variable assist. It is irrational to make such a broad statement as to ban all EPS based on one less than desirable experience with a GM product.

I remember when Dad was concerned that the industry was transitioning away from carburetors in favor of fuel injection. I can't imagine anyone today thinking that the industry would be better off if fuel injection had not become mainstream from a driveability, reliability, and economy standpoint....

-Rod

It sounds like you're basing all your issues with EPS on that one vehicle, the Malibu. Have you confirmed that your 2008 Kia does not have EPS? I suspect it does, at least electric variable assist. It is irrational to make such a broad statement as to ban all EPS based on one less than desirable experience with a GM product.

I remember when Dad was concerned that the industry was transitioning away from carburetors in favor of fuel injection. I can't imagine anyone today thinking that the industry would be better off if fuel injection had not become mainstream from a driveability, reliability, and economy standpoint....

-Rod


Do I look like someone who works in DC? I've actually been under a hood you know. The current generation Optima(2006.5 to present) has a good ole fashioned PS reservoir and plumbing reaching into the nether reaches of that engine bay.

I know VW's electric PS has been so far transparent(indistinguishable from its hydraulic predecessors) according to the serious magazines, but that is the exception - not the rule.

So you "suspected" my car has EPS? You must not be one of AF's "scratched knuckles" or "greasy elbow"s. ;) I know they're on here somewhere!

Do I look like someone who works in DC? I've actually been under a hood you know. The current generation Optima(2006.5 to present) has a good ole fashioned PS reservoir and plumbing reaching into the nether reaches of that engine bay.

I know VW's electric PS has been so far transparent(indistinguishable from its hydraulic predecessors) according to the serious magazines, but that is the exception - not the rule.

So you "suspected" my car has EPS? You must not be one of AF's "scratched knuckles" or "greasy elbow"s. ;) I know they're on here somewhere!

pretty sure all the replies for this post are from lisenced techs.

pretty sure all the replies for this post are from lisenced techs.

I'll take a mechanic with some actual under the hood time over a "licensed tech" any day! :grinyes:

I'll take a mechanic with some actual under the hood time over a "licensed tech" any day! :grinyes:

someone must do your car repair as its obvious you don't know enought about it. can I delete this guy so I don't have to read anymore of his posts

someone must do your car repair's as its obvious you don't know enought about it. can I delete this guy so I don't have to read anymore of his posts

You just can't stand the fact that there's a regular guy on here who has experience with driving cars with conventional and electrical power steering and happens to be sensitive enough to feel the differences between each.

And what exactly don't I know - can you enlighten me? All I was trying to do with this thread was to show how my skepticism of electrical power steering since five years go has been underscored by potential problems with it on a currently produced car.

You just can't stand the fact that there's a regular guy on here who has experience with driving cars with conventional and electrical power steering and happens to be sensitive enough to feel the differences between each.

And what exactly don't I know - can you enlighten me? All I was trying to do with this thread was to show how my skepticism of electrical power steering since five years go has been underscored by potential problems with it on a currently produced car.

if you like hydraulic systems great. everyone has their preferences and I'll bet in the future there will always be models out there for you to buy that keep that old technology. Nothing wrong with that. Your the consumer buy; what you want and prefer.

Don't insult the licensed techs on this site that are more often than not saving you money; giving away advice.

if you like hydraulic systems great. everyone has their preferences and I'll bet in the future there will always be models out there for you to buy that keep that old technology. Nothing wrong with that. Your the consumer buy; what you want and prefer.

Don't insult the licensed techs on this site that are more often than not saving you money; giving away advice.

I'm not trying to insult anyone. I was just expecting to find folks on here who are as "conservative" as I am when it comes to tried and true automotive technologies, who might agree that this electric steering thing might need a little more refinement before rushing it to market. Heck, I don't even like power door-locks. You can't program them on my Optima, and their default is to lock 5 seconds after all doors are closed. I can lock my own doors thank you very much. ;)

Guess my next car will have to be a 64 or later Corvair. Thanks to uncle Ralph they're a relative steal compared to Vettes, Camaros & Mustangs of that era - and just as safe.

As an ASE L1 certified Tech with 10 years of official 'under the hood' and an additional 6ish years of unofficial 'under the hood' experience, Electric power steering is here and it isn't going anywhere. Just like drive by wire and other electrical replacements for traditionally mechanical devices. They fly newer planes with electronics and no direct control and in the near future cars will be on the same path. They already have cars that can park in a spot by themselves.

As an ASE L1 certified Tech with 10 years of official 'under the hood' and an additional 6ish years of unofficial 'under the hood' experience, Electric power steering is here and it isn't going anywhere. Just like drive by wire and other electrical replacements for traditionally mechanical devices. They fly newer planes with electronics and no direct control and in the near future cars will be on the same path. They already have cars that can park in a spot by themselves.

I'll be sure to look you up when I need the electric PS disabled should I end up driving a car with it. ;)

Do I look like someone who works in DC? I've actually been under a hood you know. The current generation Optima(2006.5 to present) has a good ole fashioned PS reservoir and plumbing reaching into the nether reaches of that engine bay.

I know VW's electric PS has been so far transparent(indistinguishable from its hydraulic predecessors) according to the serious magazines, but that is the exception - not the rule.

So you "suspected" my car has EPS? You must not be one of AF's "scratched knuckles" or "greasy elbow"s. ;) I know they're on here somewhere!

Interesting, every car I've owned since my 1998 Taurus SHO has had some form of electronic assist for the power steering. Since Kia is doing a pretty good job of looking forward, I hoped such technology had found its way in to their cars as well. Maybe their next generation of Optima will have it.

I do spend a fair amount of time under the hood of cars, I've been under the hood of cars since I was in preschool, shadowing my dad at his shop after being picked up from morning preschool. When I got to be a sophomore in college Dad told me I needed to stop working on cars and find a job more related to my electrical engineering career path. So I am not a licensed or even professional technician, cars have just been one of my hobbies for the last 15 years and I haven't had a lot of opportunities to work on Kias.

I too can tell a difference between hydraulic and electric power steering. Personally I like the feel of steering that is easy at parking lot speeds, but stiffer (and not over-boosted) at highway speeds or on the track. To each their own, and I'm not about to suggest that the feel I prefer needs to be mandated, just like I would not suggest that non-electric power steering (which other drivers may prefer) be banned. Based on my experience in the engineering field, no matter how much debugging and qualification takes place in the laboratory or demonstrations, it's not a surprise when more widespread use allows issues to be discovered.

-Rod

Kia uses it but i'm pretty sure it only on the Forte and Soul as an option. Disabling it would leave you with a manual rack at whatever ratio it is :o

I too can tell a difference between hydraulic and electric power steering. Personally I like the feel of steering that is easy at parking lot speeds, but stiffer (and not over-boosted) at highway speeds or on the track.

-Rod

Agree with you 110% on the above statement. My challenge to the industry: Achieve that exact combination, achieve it well, and achieve it economically for the 80% of drivers who cannot affort a German or high-end Japanese luxury sedan which usually have VPS.

I even suggested this elsewhere - and it might actually be easier to achieve with electric/electronic PS: A dashboard push-button solution where the driver can pick the amount of assist/road feel from, say, three options. ALL would have the same level of assist at parking, but would taper down at different ratios. Max would barely taper down at all before highway speeds, Normal is, well, NORMAL. :D And Sport, the assist would drop off to nonexistent above 20mph.

Perhaps: "Max"(Buick feel), "Normal", and "Sport"(somewhere between my Kia and what a Ferrari might feel like). And of course the selection could be made only with a foot on the brake pedal - sensors, anyone?

Rod if there exists - which it does - a software that will adjust the volumes of all your mp3s so you never have to rush for the volume knob again, couldn't the above be achieved for power steering? Let's see here . . . Bluetooth mp3 playing phones, 1080 lines of HD resolution in our living rooms, MRI machines in hospitals, the International Space Station - aannnd:

complaints of numb steering on the cars most folks buy every day.

Which of the things I named doesn't fit into this picture? ;) Will the auto mfgs get it??

The manufacturers will probably look at it as an added expense for a switch and software modifications that few people will want to pay for and even fewer will do anything with. Some of those German and Japanese sports cars, even some American cars, already offer this feature which is integrated with throttle responsiveness, when the stability control kicks in, suspension settings, etc. The switchable feature tends to be in cars where people may actually use it and know when to use it.

-Rod

Agree with you 110% on the above statement. My challenge to the industry: Achieve that exact combination, achieve it well, and achieve it economically for the 80% of drivers who cannot affort a German or high-end Japanese luxury sedan which usually have VPS.

I even suggested this elsewhere - and it might actually be easier to achieve with electric/electronic PS: A dashboard push-button solution where the driver can pick the amount of assist/road feel from, say, three options. ALL would have the same level of assist at parking, but would taper down at different ratios. Max would barely taper down at all before highway speeds, Normal is, well, NORMAL. :D And Sport, the assist would drop off to nonexistent above 20mph.

Perhaps: "Max"(Buick feel), "Normal", and "Sport"(somewhere between my Kia and what a Ferrari might feel like). And of course the selection could be made only with a foot on the brake pedal - sensors, anyone?

Rod if there exists - which it does - a software that will adjust the volumes of all your mp3s so you never have to rush for the volume knob again, couldn't the above be achieved for power steering? Let's see here . . . Bluetooth mp3 playing phones, 1080 lines of HD resolution in our living rooms, MRI machines in hospitals, the International Space Station - aannnd:

complaints of numb steering on the cars most folks buy every day.

Which of the things I named doesn't fit into this picture? ;) Will the auto mfgs get it??

That would be a great innovation; pick your level of assist. I like it!

I even suggested this elsewhere - and it might actually be easier to achieve with electric/electronic PS: A dashboard push-button solution where the driver can pick the amount of assist/road feel from, say, three options. ALL would have the same level of assist at parking, but would taper down at different ratios. Max would barely taper down at all before highway speeds, Normal is, well, NORMAL. :D And Sport, the assist would drop off to nonexistent above 20mph.



Honda have been doing this since 2000 in several Japanese models of the Accord, Civic and Stream.
They have a 3 position switch that adjusts both the amount of assist and the ratio.

Honda have been doing this since 2000 in several Japanese models of the Accord, Civic and Stream.
They have a 3 position switch that adjusts both the amount of assist and the ratio.

That statement tells me everything. Either the majority of Americans want index-finger steering or the car companies presume they want it! I'd love to import that Accord or Civic! :iceslolan

This is interesting I now drive a 2010 Toyota Corolla and teach students to drive in it!:uhoh:

I was doing an "under the hood check" a couple weeks ago with a student and was trying to locate the power steering fluid container.
There was none I could find.

Do EPS cars not need power steering fluid because they don't use the hydraulic system?

Also the only steering problem with steering I have had in the 3000 miles I've driven it is a loud grinding sound when backing and turning (out of driveways)

Could this be related to the same problem?

Thanks

cl8

MOST electronic power steering is all built into the column or rack. Mazda uses and electric pump but still has a hydraulic system.

The loud grinding when backing and turning is more likely to be a problem with the rear drum brakes, a tire rubbing on a fender liner, or an outer CV joint. As RahX mentioned, some systems use hydraulic power steering with electric assist, others are fully electric and would not require any hydraulic power steering fluid. Maybe you should be teaching the students the importance of an owner's manual for their car which will explain what items to check periodically.

-Rod

. Maybe you should be teaching the students the importance of an owner's manual for their car which will explain what items to check periodically.

-Rod
That we do, although in my Toyota Echo manual I found it said nothing about checking transmission fluid and very little about battery maintenance.

Those manuals aren't always as thorough as they should be!

That we do, although in my Toyota Echo manual I found it said nothing about checking transmission fluid and very little about battery maintenance.

Those manuals aren't always as thorough as they should be!


Sealed battery, so no need to maintain it, just replace it when it dies.
The manual gear box, like most manuals, requires the removal of the fill plug to check the oil level. Not something the average owner is able to do.

Sealed battery, so no need to maintain it, just replace it when it dies.
The manual gear box, like most manuals, requires the removal of the fill plug to check the oil level. Not something the average owner is able to do.

I thought we were talking about OWNERS manuals, not manual transmissions!:lol:

And even sealed batteries do get corrosion on them, so from time to time there is battery maintenance of cleaning the terminals.

Also one student Had a battery in the back of her vehicle in the bottom of the trunk, the owners manual didn't say where the battery was!

At least you could see that easily. Chrysler used to put em in the fender wells :)

*** UPDATE ***

Another example of mushy/numb steering: (See section about 2012 Honda Civic - ditto the Outlander Sport immediately below that)

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/worst-car-flops-of-2011.html?page=2

WHY are manufacturers doing this?? I can't believe this came out of some consumer focus group.

Could it be it was cheaper to manufacture?

Just curious, what is the cost difference on the average repair of electric PS system vs the hydraulic PS system?

Could it be it was cheaper to manufacture?

Just curious, what is the cost difference on the average repair of electric PS system vs the hydraulic PS system?

Cheaper to mfg?

Cost to repair??

Who gives a s__? We're talking about handling & safety here! I want to know where dead ahead is on my steering wheel. I want some feedback as to when I'm turning and what the front wheels are doing and what position they're in.

Those are the questions we should be asking. And just what the hell century am I in anyhow? I'm going to the dealer's to buy a CAR, NOT a @$$ video game console!!

Cheaper to mfg?

Cost to repair??

Who gives a s__? We're talking about handling & safety here! I want to know where dead ahead is on my steering wheel. I want some feedback as to when I'm turning and what the front wheels are doing and what position they're in.

Those are the questions we should be asking. And just what the hell century am I in anyhow? I'm going to the dealer's to buy a CAR, NOT a @$$ video game console!!

I agree, but usually if they compromise something like safety, it's because they are trying to save money. It's not right, but too many people love the money and profit over what is right and best for the consumer.

I agree, but usually if they compromise something like safety, it's because they are trying to save money. It's not right, but too many people love the money and profit over what is right and best for the consumer.

So then it really is up to the consumer to correspond with auto mfgs and voice what they want in their cars, handling wise, options wise, etc. Problem is, 9 out of 10 consumers are indifferent to handling, good or bad! They wouldn't know a good steering ratio from a bad one or the different technologies of power steering.

And the rest of us that do appreciate a good drive are left with fewer and usually more expensive(unnecessarily so) options.

So then it really is up to the consumer to correspond with auto mfgs and voice what they want in their cars, handling wise, options wise, etc. Problem is, 9 out of 10 consumers are indifferent to handling, good or bad! They wouldn't know a good steering ratio from a bad one or the different technologies of power steering.

And the rest of us that do appreciate a good drive are left with fewer and usually more expensive(unnecessarily so) options.

Yep

Yep

I really think the 1990s were the golden age of handling. (Most)Auto mfgs "got it" by then, and the electronics and automation and fly-by-wire crap we're seeing today hadn't been fully developed by then for consumer application. Heck, even the Civic of those years had a bonified wish-bone suspension in them!

I think I would feel safer on the road back then than I do now with all the cars today being reviewed with "numb steering" and "little feedback". That's a safety issue right there and they're mucking it up with all this automation and electronics. Come on! Keep it simple.

Much of what's driving the transition to electric power steering is fuel economy requirements. The old school power steering used a parasitic hydraulic pump that was driven off the belt which sucked power from the engine all the time, and especially when steering at low speeds. Electric power steering could eliminate the pump and the hydraulic lines which reduces parasitic draw on the engine as well as the weight and space from those components.

Next, when the manufacturer's are required to implement stability control, that's a whole lot easier to do when you control the driver's ability to oversteer the car, when the computer can control the throttle, and when the computer can control the brakes. Plus with the throttle by wire you no longer need a separate cruse control servo and associated cabling, further reducing weight.

So some of this technology isn't driven to market by the bean counters or what's easiest to manufacture (although much of this technology does have a benefit from that aspect), but rather by government mandates. Yeah, that may not make you sleep any better, but ultimately it is for the better of the bulk population, and for those of us who may still know how to drive and want a car without all the technology or numb steering, we still have the option of buying older cars or new performance cars that have separate "performance oriented" modes which adjust steering feel, throttle response, and stability control aggressiveness.

-Rod

shorod wrote:
Much of what's driving the transition to electric power steering is fuel economy requirements. The old school power steering used a parasitic hydraulic pump that was driven off the belt which sucked power from the engine all the time, and especially when steering at low speeds. Electric power steering could eliminate the pump and the hydraulic lines which reduces parasitic draw on the engine as well as the weight and space from those components.

Next, when the manufacturer's are required to implement stability control, that's a whole lot easier to do when you control the driver's ability to oversteer the car, when the computer can control the throttle, and when the computer can control the brakes. Plus with the throttle by wire you no longer need a separate cruse control servo and associated cabling, further reducing weight.

Railz in Green: Sho, Sho, hold on. You're preaching to the choir here! I know all of that. And greater fuel economy is no excuse to incorporate technologies that compromise my safety and that of others when in the driver seat.

Next thing you know they'll have cars with ZERO degrees camber/caster, ZERO SAI, perfectly straight toe within 1/10000 of a degree - and use COMPUTERS to simulate the effects of Caster & SAI. That's when I'll stop driving altogether! I don't want a computer simulating alignment physics, I want the alignment itself to straighten out my car - but then again, I'm old fashioned. ;)

So some of this technology isn't driven to market by the bean counters or what's easiest to manufacture (although much of this technology does have a benefit from that aspect), but rather by government mandates. Yeah, that may not make you sleep any better, but ultimately it is for the better of the bulk population,

What does the "government" know about safe handling?? Explain how it is "better" for the general population. Does numb steering and minimal feedback make everyone so white-knuckled that they keep it under the PSL all the time when driving, or proceed around a corner slower than paint drying? Seriously I'm on bended knee with full doplar-radar and 150dB sensitivity shotgun microphones and tape recorders ready to hear this one! :runaround:

and for those of us who may still know how to drive and want a car without all the technology or numb steering, we still have the option of buying older cars or new performance cars that have separate "performance oriented" modes which adjust steering feel, throttle response, and stability control aggressiveness.

-Rod

That's just roll-over mentality - as in, people just rolling over and accepting whatever products they're pedalled, whatever new regs the govt imposes.
Well I don't roll over, Sho. I like to stick things in the ears of those who need to hear it: Government, companies who sell the products, etc.

That's what you call revolution - not marching in the streets and occupying public parks and scaring away business for mom & pop stores next to stock exchanges! We've become so gullible Rod, and that's why this sh$%t's being pushed on us.

I think it's a stretch to suggest that numb steering compromises anyone's safety. I'd want to see numbers that clearly identify a tie between the steering feel and an increase in accidents. The technology that is more likely to be compromising safety is the smart phone/text messaging.

As for the government mandate, I'm referring to fuel economy and stability control mandates, not steering feel.

I happen to enjoy my modern cars with modern features and technology. I drive cars before I buy them to make sure I enjoy the way they drive, handle and feel. So does my wife. You know what, she happens to like her Lincoln with light, numb steering. She doesn't enjoy driving my SHO with firm steering and firm suspension. So, fortunately for her, not all cars are performance-oriented. Her first car was a 1995 Saturn SL with manual transmission, manual clutch, and even manual steering. When she traded it in for her 1999 Passat with manual transmission, one of the first things she commented on what how much easier it was to steer and how much better she liked that. Her next comment was how much more comfortable the seats were. ;) She never commented on how much flatter it cornered, how much faster she could take corners, etc. Between her Saturn, Passat, Lincoln LS, and now MKZ she's never had an accident, even with the relatively numb steering of her most recent cars and 2 kids in the car.

Ultimately I don't see safety as an argument here, I do see choice as one though. There are still cars that offer the steering feel you like. You probably won't find many modern cars that lose the technology though, but that doesn't need to be a bad thing either.

At one time there were probably people that said the automobile had nothing to offer over a horse and buggy. There certainly were people that thought a gasoline automobile was an explosion waiting to happen, and those who thought there would only ever be a need for maybe 6 computers in the world. I'm glad people didn't roll over and listen to them either.

These are the types of discussions that make being human so enjoyable, everyone is entitled to their opinions and no one can tell someone else their opinion is wrong.

-Rod

I think it's a stretch to suggest that numb steering compromises anyone's safety. I'd want to see numbers that clearly identify a tie between the steering feel and an increase in accidents. The technology that is more likely to be compromising safety is the smart phone/text messaging.

As for the government mandate, I'm referring to fuel economy and stability control mandates, not steering feel.

I happen to enjoy my modern cars with modern features and technology. I drive cars before I buy them to make sure I enjoy the way they drive, handle and feel. So does my wife. You know what, she happens to like her Lincoln with light, numb steering. She doesn't enjoy driving my SHO with firm steering and firm suspension. So, fortunately for her, not all cars are performance-oriented. Her first car was a 1995 Saturn SL with manual transmission, manual clutch, and even manual steering. When she traded it in for her 1999 Passat with manual transmission, one of the first things she commented on what how much easier it was to steer and how much better she liked that. Her next comment was how much more comfortable the seats were. ;) She never commented on how much flatter it cornered, how much faster she could take corners, etc. Between her Saturn, Passat, Lincoln LS, and now MKZ she's never had an accident, even with the relatively numb steering of her most recent cars and 2 kids in the car.

Ultimately I don't see safety as an argument here, I do see choice as one though. There are still cars that offer the steering feel you like. You probably won't find many modern cars that lose the technology though, but that doesn't need to be a bad thing either.

At one time there were probably people that said the automobile had nothing to offer over a horse and buggy. There certainly were people that thought a gasoline automobile was an explosion waiting to happen, and those who thought there would only ever be a need for maybe 6 computers in the world. I'm glad people didn't roll over and listen to them either.

These are the types of discussions that make being human so enjoyable, everyone is entitled to their opinions and no one can tell someone else their opinion is wrong.

-Rod

Rod the reason I'm so empassioned about this is because - and i know I shouldn't publicize this - but I have trouble staying in my own lane! Literally, I'm all over the place. A car with a strong on center feel would lessen my tendency to wander and put others at danger, that's all. I'm afraid that cars with strong on center feel and quick steering wheel return to center are becoming scarce as hens teeth!