Electric cars to be phased out..

Originally posted by Prelewd


Would you say we function like a 'well oiled machine'?

LOL


Without wanting to be too critical,;) I'd say that you could function with a little less consumption.It's a shame that with all the technical expertise available in the U.S.,the markets and the manufacturers couldn't develop concepts like this (http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/3813258.html) more successfully.:(

Originally posted by taranaki


LOL


Without wanting to be too critical,;) I'd say that you could function with a little less consumption.It's a shame that with all the technical expertise available in the U.S.,the markets and the manufacturers couldn't develop concepts like this (http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/3813258.html) more successfully.:(

Without getting off topic too terribly much, there could be a number of things that contribute to the curtail of the electric car program:

For one, they could be deciding to spend more money on the hydrogen powered car program.

For two, sales aren't that good for electric vehicles because you still have to pay the damn electricity bill. Hydrogen is much cheaper.

And for three, they are probably death traps. An effective electric vehicles would probably have to be light weight... Safety cages aren't light. To counterpoint this though, electric motors do have very high torque.

I say go hydrogen! But until they create a 400HP hydrogen engine, i'll stick with my internal combustion.

Originally posted by Prelewd


.

I say go hydrogen! But until they create a 400HP hydrogen engine, i'll stick with my internal combustion.

WORD :) :)
I don't think that environmentalists enjoy driving. They want everybody to drive Echos and Hybrids. The fun factor in driving with power is eliminated by the emissions and gas mileage restrictions, as the 70's proved.

Originally posted by Prelewd


Without getting off topic too terribly much,

peeled this off the thread to make a new topic.We need some more new material.

Are the carmakers actually doing enough to develop alternative fuelled vehicles?

I know this is partial,:D , but http://www.gmev.com/ (this) is a link to GM's electric EV1.
I was sent to school on the electric S10 back in the 90's, interesting truck but cost was in the 30's and it was a pretty unusable truck, didn't have much payload capacity.

GM's electric car was quick :o

Screw electric cars, and give me something that I can hear driving down the road.

Originally posted by taranaki
Are the carmakers actually doing enough to develop alternative fuelled vehicles?

I don't think its their job. If anyone feels that they can develope one that can turn a profit then by all means they should pursue that investment. Expecting an existing buisness to be the one that is responsible for inovation leads to stagnation. No existing company has to be the one to make the breakthough. It is in their best intrests to work towards it (since whoever does make an economical alternative will be raking in the $$$).

Right now the big push is to make a cheap and small hydrogen scrubber. Thats where the current problems are. Nobody really expects hydrogen to be used as the source of fuel in the sense that gasloline is. Other then being a pressurized explosive its would be very difficult to maintain a secure connection between the dispenser and the recepticle.













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The company that can make a cost effective and powerful electric car has a lot to gain, but the cost to do the development for such a car could mean that the company that makes it could be in the red for a while. That is why the manufacturers aren't putting much effort into the development and also why the government is offering money and tax breaks for companies that sell alternative fueled vehicles. The government money and tax credits offset the extra R&D needed to make these cars work right.

i'd like one too sound like an electric train

A huge buzzing noise that would be cool :o

Eventually we'd have to use some form of electric car

if you hadn't realise no matter what we do the Oil will still be used up:o

The technology exists for limited-use electric cars but not for viable mass-produced electric cars. All of the US auto companies are operating on a thin profit-margin and have been for some time. SUV's have been a savior to the bottom line for them, mostly because the regular cars have sucked SO badly nobody wants them. GM is going back to rear-drive cars after a 20-year failed experiment with FWD and maybe they will produce something worthwile again. Only problem is, alternative-fueled/powered cars are hugely expensive to bring to market and government tax credits don't come near recovering the R&D costs on products that have little public interest. When the automakers start making cars that are profitable again they will have little interest in electric/alternative fuel cars and "rocking-the-profit-boat" for a market that has failed them before.
What idiot would spend $30K+ on a car that will only travel 100 miles (less with 2 on board) between 10-hour charges, has little usable trunk room, and causes an environmental disaster when in a serious accident?
Everyone keeps saying that we are running out of oil, have been for 25 years. There have been a number of scientists quietly saying that "fossil-fuels" may be generated by nature much faster than we thought.
Would I buy an electric car? Sure, if it were good-looking, comfortable, USABLE, and fun to drive. But it would have to be priced competitively without government backing.

Originally posted by Pick


WORD :) :)
I don't think that environmentalists enjoy driving. They want everybody to drive Echos and Hybrids. The fun factor in driving with power is eliminated by the emissions and gas mileage restrictions, as the 70's proved.

Okay, so Echos aren't the most beautiful cars out there, but they aren't hybrids, so I am a lil lost as to why it's considered to be as "unuseful" as the hybrids. Besides, I have done a good amount of research on alternative fueled vehicles, and the EV1 second-generation has had a LOT more promise than even the first generation only a few years back. Each time a new electric is made it will get better, but the problem is that people want power and economy... Won't happen for quite some time.

I must say, on the behalf of the Toyota Prius (hybrid that looks HELLA like the Echo) that it WILL move. Last year my crew of car friends and I were hauling tooshy up the turnpike to a car show, and sure enough there was a lil forest green Prius who kept coming out of nowhere and kept pace with us for a few miles. I was really impressed. Not to mention that it's a sedan, thus making Honda's Insight kinda foolish. The new Civic hybrid shows promise, but I've yet to see the "performance" on one like I have the Prius.

The REALLY good laugh was from seeing Honda's "new" release back in 2k1 I believe of the Bulldog: The full electric SUV... complete with its own collapsible electric motorcycle!?!? I nearly died of laughter on that one!!!

well,technically,the speed issue has been adressed,it's just a question of refining it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2409746828

Originally posted by taranaki
well,technically,the speed issue has been adressed,it's just a question of refining it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2409746828

And it only uses C-Cell batteries :bloated: Could be just a smidge out of most price ranges ;)













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Originally posted by taranaki
well,technically,the speed issue has been adressed,it's just a question of refining it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2409746828
Hmm, that one didn't sell either!!!
:D

When I was at Comdex, I sat in a few prototype electric cars by www.feelgoodcars.com . They each weighed in the range of 1000-1500 lbs, and because of their weight, are classified as motorcycles. This means that you must, legally, wear a helmet to be in one, because they offer next to nothing in the way of occupant protection. Now, a few facts about FeelGoodCars' only available model:

http://www.feelgoodcars.com/specifications/images_specifications/zenn_blue.jpg
Price: $11,000-13,000 US
Curb weight: 1,124 lb
Wheel base: 67.7 in (5' 7.7", shorter th
an Tangie and ALMOST as short as Mopps)
Length: 101.6 in, (8' 5.6", just a little longer than Taranaki)
Maximum speed :25 mph (40 km/h), limited according to FMVSS 500/CMVSS 500 (United-States/Canada).
Range :30 - 34 miles (50 - 55 km)
Charging :6 hours (120 VAC), 80% rechargeable in 3 hours (at $.70/kWh, costs about $.57 per charge)
Seating: 2 (+ 2 optional with rear bench 60/40 split) (**NOTE - 2 people was VERY cramped)
Emissions: 0

Now, for comparison's sake, here's the same info on my car:
Price (as new): $19,000-21,600 US
Curb weight: 2,867 lb
Wheel base: 100.4 in (8' 4.4")
Length: 175.0 in (14' 7")
Maximum speed: Not sure, but faster than any speed limit, so who cares. Probably about 120mph.
Range: 340 - 430 miles, depending on conditions.
Charging: about 10 minutes, up to 14.8 gallons of 87 octane for a total of about $25 at current gas prices.
Seating: 4 comfortably, 5 squished-ly.
Emissions: according to www.fueleconomy.gov, 7.7 tons/year assuming 15000 annual miles at 45% hwy, 55% city. (On a scale from 20.4 [Enzo Ferrari] to 3.1 [Honda Insight], the G20 scored in the top third of all "family sedans" for the year 1994.)

A few weeks ago, I was feeling exceptionally peeved about the "Feel Good Cars" thing (feeling good is usually the opposite of DOING good) and set out to prove something. I wanted to figure out EXACTLY how much my car polluted vs. the "Feel Good" variety, assuming the same miles driven at the same speed. Unfortunately this proved to be impossible, given that I couldn't find accurate pollution tables for power plants, and that USA power comes from a vast variety of sources. (Also I screwed up my calculations somewhere in the middle and gave up.)

Before I gave up , however, I did learn quite a bit. I'll share that info with you now:
I decided to use the range of the ZENN, (30-34 miles) as my base, and averaged that to be 32 miles. Then I calculated that in my G, assuming my average real-world economy of about 27mpg, I use 1.33 gallons to go 32 miles. Now, I learned from some website that 1 gallon of gas = 1.3x10^8 joules. So following that, I used about 156,296,000 joules to go 32 miles.

I didn't have any idea how much energy is used from the ZENN's batteries, or how to calculate that, so I asked my dad. Here's a quote from him:
Let's just drain their batteries for the trip.
72 Volts x 90 Ah = 6480 Wh
6480 Wh x 3600 = 23,328,000 Ws or Joules to go their 30-34 miles
Your car used 156,296,000 Joules per your calculations.
So they start with a factor of 6.7 times as efficient.
In reality, you cannot allow their batteries drain to below about 20% or
they cannot recharge.
This efficiency in using electric motors to get power to the wheels is why
diesel locomotives on trains use diesel generators running electric motors
to move their millions of tons of train and cargo.

Hope this helps.

Steve


So in essence, the G used 6.7 times as much energy to go the same distance. Sounds bad, until you factor in the weight. Since the G weighs 2.55 times as much, we have to factor that in. The ZENN used 23,328,000 joules to move its 1124lbs, at 20,754.4 joules/lb. The G used 156,296,000 joules to move its 2867 lbs (though I should throw in a few hundred more for me and all the crap I keep in the trunk) netting 54515.5 joules/lb. That leaves us with the ZENN being 2.62 times as efficient.

Then I tried to calculate how much my car actually polluted per mile, vs. how much the ZENN did, and that's where I got screwed up. If you want to try and figure it out, go for it.

Oh, I asked my dad about the charger's effiency and the loss of power over long distance lines, and here's what I got:
Well, it's getting rather complicated now. Good chargers nowadays are
probably about 80 per cent efficient. As far as loss when you transport the
electricity over distances, gasoline itself has costs associated with
transmission. If you belive that the free market economy brings us to some
parity at the point of delivery, electricity is about 7 cents per KWh or a
cost of about 57 cents per charge assuming 80 percent charging efficiency.
Your car would use 1.33 gallons of gas at $1.50 per gallon is $2.00 for the
same trip. But can you really measure the loss of productivity, time, lives
associated with driving vehicles that require as much down-time and
complicated infrastructure to use? The fact that internal combustion
engines can carry their weight and transport their fuel and driver and still
have power available to transport cargo means that until we run out of ways
to fuel them (not very likely) they will continue to provide us with the
incredible diversity of applications that they do.

I think I've concluded that the ultimate "Feel-and-actually-DO-good" car right now, with current technology, would be a Toyota or Honda hybrid engine mated to the Sentra CA's zero-evaporative-emissions fuel and exhaust system. The hybrid engine seems to be the best for gas mileage and energy-efficiency, as instead of using an alternative energy source, it makes better use of the same old one. The Sentra CA is currently the lowest-emissions gasoline powered vehicle in production, producing zero evaporative emissions whatsoever. The best thing about this is that the Civic hybrid looks and acts almost exactly like a regular Civc, only it shuts off at stoplights, has a different gauge cluster, and nets nearly twice the mpg. The Sentra CA looks and acts like a regular Sentra, except it has 4 fewer horsies, and is probably WAY more difficult to service. I'm not one to get all tree-huggy, but if a person can have environmental friendliness with no (or very few) compromises, why not? Right now, the ZENN, fairly efficient though it may be, is not a practical alternative to a conventional (sensible) car.

:huh:
I'll have to read that again when I have a few hours, but I like what you are getting at!!

To make things interesting, here are some more examples:

2003 Honda Insight:
1964 lbs, avg 60mpg, 67 hp
35302 joules/lb to go 32 miles
69,333,333 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0341

2003 Cadillac Escalade:
5641 lbs, avg 15 mpg, avg 310 hp
49163 joules/lb to go 32 miles
277,333,333 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0549

2003 Nissan Sentra:
2650 lbs, avg 32 mpg, 126 hp
49056 joules/lb to go 32 miles
130,000,000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0475

2003 Hummer H1:
7000 lbs, avg 10.7 mpg, 195 hp
55540 joules/lb to go 32 miles
388,785,046 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0278

1994 Infiniti G20:
2867 lbs, avg 27 mpg, 140 hp
54515 joules/lb to go 32 miles
156,296,000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0488

2003 Toyota Camry 2.4L:
3200 lbs, avg 28 mpg, 157 hp
46434 joules/lb to go 32 miles
148,590,000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0490

2003 Toyota Camry 3.0L:
3300 lbs, avg 25 mpg, 210 hp
54424 joules/lb to go 32 miles
166400000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0636

edit: I just realized that my G looks like an inefficient piece of crap next to that Camry, which moves more weight with more power for less total energy. So, to make things fair, here's the 1994 Camry:

1994 Toyota Camry 2.2L:
3000 lbs, avg 25 mpg, 125 hp
55,466 joules/lb to go 32 miles
166400000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0417

1994 Toyota Camry 3.0L:
3200 lbs, avg 21.5 mpg, 188 hp
60450 joules/lb to go 32 miles
193440000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0588

So, that just shows you how far engine technology has come in the last 9 years. They are now netting more power, more reliability, more displacement, better fuel economy, and less pollution.

Steven Hawkin said that Electric engines will never be fully recognized and that we will continue to use the internal combustion engine and it will get more and more efficient.

Altho when the oil runs out ........:o

Digging this up again because I thought this was pretty interesting, we discussed this it at the GM training center last week. You will have to know that there is no more serp belt on the engine. The whole bell housing is the starter/generator which is liquid cooled. It comes with 110 volt outlets and I heard could come with 3 phase outlets too! The engine is an 5.3L

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/gm_and_the_env/releases/hybrid_trucks_052201.html

Hav'nt read the thred but I'll post my opinion on elctric cars...

Electric cars were invented back in the early 1900s, but for some odd reason, they found gasoline enignes to be better, I don't know the story...

I'd NEVER buy an electric car, I'll always use gasolin, if the price of gas goesup to $10 per gallon, I'll ride a bycicle (speeling?) I'm serious, I'll die before I use an electric car instead of a gasoline-powered car.

The electric car might not even sell very well in other countries besides America. I know people in Europe areas LOVE thier cars, but some people in America are lazy and like simple things so they's buy an electric car just because it'll cost less to maintain it:bloated:

maybe they are all going in the wrong direction. Why new types of cars and motors. What if they could develope a clean fuel that could work in existing internal combustion engines ??? It might sound dumb to some people but we all already have the cars !!! All you need is something synthetic maybe that burns much cleaner than gasoline and diesel and is cheap. I think that would be what theyed have to do to get EVERYONE into the clean market. I hope someone somewhere is working on that angle cuz i am not ever trading my camaro for a prius or ev1 !!! I dont think it is beyond our technology , someone just needs to get lucky and discover it !!!

I can clip a baseball card to your rims if you want the noise
Read about the TESLA it doesnt have a high top speed but 0-60 in less than 4 seconds (http://www.futurecars.com/reviews/tesla-roadster.html)

I can clip a baseball card to your rims if you want the noise
Read about the TESLA it doesnt have a high top speed but 0-60 in less than 4 seconds (http://www.futurecars.com/reviews/tesla-roadster.html)

Welcome to AF.

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Holy crap. 5 years! That's a record.