Options for getting to ~400HP

OK, so, I've got GTRA chassis number 6, a very early school car. It's got the base 302 engine in it, putting out around 230HP (flywheel, I think), some time before I bought it (January of this year). Having spent the year getting acquainted with it, it's time for me to up the power. I'm shooting for somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 HP (flywheel), but I'm not averse to going higher :evillol:. I'm looking for high reliability and low maintenance, so I don't want anything too highly strung. The engine currently has around 1,000 hours on it, so I worry about how well the current engine would take to big power increases.

That said, I'm open to all suggestions. Keep the current engine and do what to it, or got for a full engine swap? For an engine swap, what's a good economical option to get me to that power level? Anyone have good sources for crate motors?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

Having played with the 5.0l Ford engines for many years I can suggest a few things.
These engines have developed over time and have ended up with
very thin cylinder walls and tiny crank main caps, they can handle 400hp, but
it would be about the max.
You should also keep them below 6200rpm for long life.
To get 400hp you would have to get the block machined and blueprinted,
install a good quality stroker kit,( no replacement for displacement ) performance cam, aluminum cylinder heads, roller rockers. free flowing intake, bigger throttle body and mass air calibrated for larger, 24 or 30 lb injectors.
You should install an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.
Use underdrive pulleys, synthetic fluids and the best exhaust system you can.
After all that you should be close to your goal.
It's a lot of work !
Ford Motor Sport (and others) also sell crate motors in various configurations, you would have to compare prices etc... to decide which
would be better for you.

Good luck ☺

Bob

LS1! Easy swap and good power plant.

But I am a bit partial! ;-)

My school car dyno'd 230 rear wheel HP. With 1000h you have a pretty tired motor and it wont last if you crank it up to 400hp.

So you are really looking at replacing the motor with a 400hp unit. You can find a local builder and discuss options. There are lots of choices in parts quality expense and you could easily spend $15k to make a very reliable custom built 400+hp small block that will last forever.

You could also do it for much less than that depending on your goals.

There are lots of sources for off the shelf crate motors (get a Hot Rod magazine and you will find lots of adds) including Ford Racing etc.

You will likely want to remove the fuel injeciton and go with a carb etc, but certainly you could upgrade the injectors and keep the FI.

We are in the process of removing the FI and installing aluminum heads (I had some kicking around from a GTS), manifold and Holley carb to my school car. Never could get the FI to run right and figured this would give up a simpler solution and 10-20% more power.

I'll post results when we get done and re dyno it.

Kevin
GTS, GTRA

P Mac,
I agree with both Bob and Kevin. The weak point in building a 347 stroker with your 5.0 block will be the block itself. Unless you add a main stud girtle, it can not stand up to 400 hp reliably even with a forged crank and good rods. They tend to break at 400 hp or more when used consistently at high loads and high rpm. Not sure the stud girtle would completely protect from that. A "Mexican" 302 block with the stud girtle would probably work fine at 400 hp. I have seen these for ~ $250 needing all machine work, but they are getting hard to find in good shape (standard bore, no damage).

I see two ways to get a reliable 400 hp, a well built 347 stroker with aftermarket block and forged internals or a 351W using forged internals and a main stud girtle. There are a number of sources for long block crates, but be careful of what they are using for blocks (new/used, aftermarket) and internals. Ford Racing as a 347 with the hp you are looking for that uses the new four bolt "Boss" block, I think the crank is forged. It will drop right in. If you go to the 351W it might be a little cheaper if you use a stock block with a stud girtle. It will go in pretty easily as well since that is what the GTS cars are running.

Headers are an issue in getting the hp. Gary Jones is working up an 8 into 1 equal length set up that will work with the 347 and there are long tubes made by Hedman for the 351W GTS cars.

Getting away from the FI is good advice. To modify what you have to support a 347 with 400hp would require ECU, intake, injectors and other air flow components. Big bucks when all is said and done.

Let us know what you decide to do as I bet a lot of us will be thinking along the same lines (MORE POWER!).

Merry Christmas,
Mike

If you are going to buy a 351W block I recommend the DART. Stronger and a smaller bearing diameter.

Contact an American Sedan racer in your area. They race with 400 h.p. 306 c.i. 6800 rpm engines.

My spare (that just sets in the trailer) is a 10.2:1 compression, zero balanced (thats what makes them last) with a lightened flywheel AND its the OLD Ford block (those are the tough ones) with after market custom lightened crank, aftermarket rods, gas ported pistons and gt40 heads with Ferrea valves. This American Sedan configuration is a combination of components that you typically can run for 3 years with no issues (about 30 weekends). They all run roller rockers and solid lifter cams and a .500 lift maximum. Then just put new bearings and springs in them and do it again.

Just very reliable Engines.

Most of these high end engines from builders will cost you about 12 grand NEW!!

But the rules changed last year allowing different heads and 8000 rpm capability. SO NOW they need even heavier duty parts now that they are at the 8000 rpm level.

So now these 400 h.p. 6800 rpm engines are old news and can be bought cheap.

I have one...but I just can't seem to part with it (right Eric...sorry).

But in time I really should...it just sits in the trailer. Plug and Play - Pan to intake to distributor..add your carb and go. You know the deal though..if you sell it..you need it.

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS

Patrick

If you or someone you know in the TB area finally does want to sell that lump, get in touch with me. I'm in the planning stages of making my plastic pos a little faster in the straights. I'm just a little South of you.

Yea, I know ...I keep trying to talk myself into getting rid of it. Its actually the 2007 National Runoffs winning engine. It was built just for the one race by Felice Racing Engines for Andy McDermid for the runoffs. It won of course. This thing is wicked! Andy ran it just for that race and then sold it to me (for big bucks). They then found some more power in cylinder heads in the off season and so I upgraded to the latest set of iron heads for it

This is no junk..high end stuff for sure. You can carry high G's both left and right and all the oil is scraped, so oil pressure is rock solid all the time. It never gets hot and fires up from dead cold and idles with any of my carbs.

I dropped it in my car and set the short track record at Sebring (broke the lap record by 2 seconds). It'll carry the right front tire 6" off the ground for a hundred feet around the tower turn at Sebring. Great fun. I then put it back in the trailer for when I needed it again. Damper to flywheel, intake to pan with the MSD distributor (timing is all set), wires and everything. Plug and play (I even have the carb for it)...everything there when you need it. Runs like a swiss watch. It was too nice of an engine for regional racing. I planned on using it only when I needed it. But I retired at the end of the season with the championship and a huge points lead so I never needed to pull it out of the trailer again. I put it for sale on the A/Sedan board 2 weeks ago for $6,000 had offers of $5,000.00 for it.

To hear this thing run you would swear it was a top fueler running next to you in the staging area. I love this things engine sound. It has that cool rolling sound.

I told folks I would rather trade something cool for it...but no one has anything cool.

I dunno. I pulled the plug on the sale last year because I thought I needed it for a emergency dyno session (for testing carbs for A/Sedan) but we ended up using someone elses engine instead.

Never sell a good race car trailer or a good engine....but it is outdated for Nationals level racing now. It needs the new Edelbrock heads now. The shortblocks is three race weekends old, the heads are one race weekend.

So it's all broke in and ready to go. Shift it at 6800 rpm. Its happiest there.

I also have the original gt40 heads that were so worked its ridiculous and they ran great, but the new gt40p heads are just a little better. Man I do have a parts pile of nice stuff...that needs to go.

One of these says I'll post it all on racingjunk.

I used a Ford 347, 450 hp crate and I'm pleased with it. $8,700 from Summit Racing. Drop on a carb and it is ready to go.

Craig

On the crate 347.

When it comes time to freshen it up... do your self a favor..take it to an engine builder and spend the money on a lightweight zero balance crankshaft (those ain't cheap), a zero balance damper and zero balance flywheel so they can zero balance it and pull all the weight off the rotating mass, you will double the life of the engine between rebuilds (you never wear out rings..it's always bearings). Now the engine will run sooooo smoooth, it will rev faster and the block will last forever.

I will never run a non zero balance Ford again once you race one, you can hear the quality down the straightaway. Not cheap to do..but they are just right.

I have purchased one of these and it ran well....

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9290

Lists for $7500 but I have a friend who runs the Ford Perf. Parts department at a dealership and hooked me up. If you end up getting a Ford crate motor let me know and I will put you in touch with my buddy.

We put about 20 racing hrs. on the motor with no issues.

Thanks for all the advice guys. This information is golden for me. I'll be looking into a new engine, and doing a bunch of research.

As a follow-up question, I said in the original post that I was shooting for around 400HP. I'm interested in your thoughts on how much power I *should* be wanting. I'm not going racing, so ultimate speed is not a concern, nor is adhering to any particular class rules.

Right now, I'm running Toyo R888s, and there's enough grip that I never have the power to challenge the rear grip of the car. No matter what corner I'm on, I can go full throttle, and never have to modulate the throttle, unless I blow the line, and need to lift a little to tighten my line. While that's nice and comforting, it's not teaching me the throttle control I want it to. So, I want enough power that I can get the back to step out in 2nd/3rd gear corners, rather than at-the-limit power understeer, which is all I can muster with the stock 302.

Thanks in advance.

400-450hp is a good range to shoot for. The GTS cars have 450 and reliabilility of the engine and car are good. Too much HP and you run the risk of breaking either, alot. If you are doing track days and mild racing 400hp will keep you and your wallet happy.

As you get over 500hp things get hot, stressed, broken etc and may not be worth it.

You may find that slicks and 400hp are MUCH faster than 500hp and DOT tires for example.

Kevin

I agree, everything is designed with a power level in mind. Installing more power and (even worse) torque (so stay away from 347's or bigger engines in these school cars) is really going to break the suspension up and tweak the chassis.

Stay with high winding small cubic inch stuff, they sound cooler and are MUCH easier on parts (not 8 grand though..too hard on parts...5500-6500 rpm..sounds flat and dull).

Nothing sounds more American than a 6800-7000 rpm small block. :iceslolan