McLaren Project 4/6

Scale Master - you are making a very clean and tidy build of this kit - I have three of them and one Perfect Parts set - complete engine-chassis-suspension PE and a Perfect Parts Brake detail set. I plan to build one as a full detail kit and the other two as out of the box. Was that Tamiya TS fluorescent paint? Did you use a base under it or did you just build it up to color? also are you spraying from the can or are you decanting the paint and air-brushing? - Thanks - John

I am using the Tamiya TS-36 over a white base. I tried it over both the Fine White Primer and the Pure White.
I decanted some and airbrushed it and also used it from the can on the larger areas. I have been having problems with it curing. I have been painting on it for well over a year and the Fl. Red is unstable to say the least. Very frustrating considering it was done with all Tamiya paint products. Since I have switched to using an automotive clear I am back to making some progress... The TS-13 did not damage the decals during application, but a week or two later it cracked all the black decals.

Scale Master - thanks for the info - I have also had issues with some TS paints cracking "shrinking" at a later date - mainly the TS-36 Fl. Red - I have found that if you mix a small amount of TS-13 or TS-79 clear to the paint in the airbrush it reduces the chance of cracking - Still the Tamiya TS paints can be finiky at times. I also only use Zero paints 2K clears now for final coat. I guess any Urethane 2 pack will work but I like the Zero brand - wish they would tell us the real brand name so I can buy it in the USA without all the shipping cost. I have also found that when using TS- clears thin coats are best to minimize shrinking later that causes the cracks. So as I understand it you just built up coats of TS-36 for the Fl. Red? Does it take a lot of coats to become opaque? I really appreciate your skills and advice as I have only returned to modeling a few years now - there has been so many advances since I last built scale replicas. This forum has really helped me get up to speed and most of the modelers are friendly. - John

John,
I have found using light coats at about 10-15 minute intervals works pretty good. Too close together and it may run, to far apart it may not bond and meld into the previous coat(s).

Figure about 6 of these coats before it becomes uniform and "opaque". It is really more of a candy or transparent/translucent paint.

Don't worry about the splotchiness of the first few coats. It amazing blends itself together as you reach that "opacity".

Once you have achieved that uniformity, you can continue to add more paint to darken the color. Be sure to count how many coats you apply so you have a better chance of all your parts matching. (But don't be too surprised if you end up with several slightly different shades anyway.) If you can prep all the parts that need to be red beforehand, and shoot them at the same time, it is a benefit.

I am getting wrinkles and the paint is turning soft after months of dry/cure time. Only in a few places. I've never had this happen before, but I am using paints (all Tamiya) from different batches purchased in some cases years apart. I did not think it would matter... Not sure it truly is the culprit either...
- Mark

If it's wrinkling I would think there is a possible problem with the undercoat or primer.

BUT, it would'nt be the first time I was wrong!

That is a logical conclusion, but it is a case of it drying and appearing to be fine, and weeks, or months later it goes wonky in some places. And all the paint was Tamiya lacquers. I'll just deal with it...

Finally got the rear wing assembled. Tamiya paints and SMS C/F decals…
https://i.imgur.com/PR7ry1s.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5wY5l3N.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xywZg9U.jpg

Scale Master - things are looking good. Did you have any more "cracking - shrinking" problems with the red? I saw on the Top Studio website - they have a tutorial for the MP4/4 super detail kit that they had shrinking problems with using TS paints too. The TS website also says to mix a small amount of clear to the TS-36 red to prevent the shrinking. I have ordered up a bottle of Zero brand McLaren red to avoid this issue. Anyhow the wing looks very good - nice paint and decal work. - keep this coming Scale Master - John

There is one area of red that still has not stabilized. I intend to wait it out rather than strip and redo the whole body.

The same issue came up on the rear wing end plates. I did strip and redo them completely, including creating new decals. But that was a smaller project compared to the body...

Rear wing looks great. The transition between the red and the black on the end plate edges looks awesome. To me that's one of the trickiest types of masking to do in order to avoid some bleed through and end with a nice sharp transition.

The TS website also says to mix a small amount of clear to the TS-36 red to prevent the shrinking.

Hi John! Where did you read that?

@scale master: you did a great job sofar! Your warnings regarding the paints are welcome to me!

Nice work on the McLaren it looks great..!!

Thanks guys.
FYI, the TS-36 is already a transparent color. Adding clear may very well help, (although I wonder if the clear applied on top may have triggered my issue), I would also warn that adding clear to the color might require more coats being applied. It took six light coats just to get the color to begin to be uniform. Just a thought.

Scale Master - does anyone here have a contact with Tamiya that can inquire into the paint (TS36) issues? They must be aware of it? This is why I ordered the Zero MP4 red and Brilliant white from Hiroboy - it's the only way to guaranty there will not be an issue with the paints "shrinking". I would imagine the VOC's in the clear applied over the TS36 attack the TS36 on a chemical level and cause it to shrink further - revealing the cracks. Remember guys paints are really organic chemical "pigmented anti erosion" compounds that behave according the the laws of chemistry when you mix different layers. I really doubt it can be the primer coat as long as the primer coat also seals the surface below it. Hence primer (fillers) and primer (sealers) in the automotive world. The primer sealers only chemically seal the surface below it from the surface applied above it and provide adhesion for the pigment coats. Just a few thoughts as I'm currently studying organic chemistry at the university. - John

I think I am having a unique and somewhat isolated issue. I have only had the issue with this one model. And the fact that it manifests itself weeks or months after the paint has been applied is the different aspect.

I did use all the paint (Red) from one batch where tose problems are. Since I used that case up I switched to both newer and older cans and don't seem to be having the same issues with other parts painted subsequently. But since I am trying to save what was already painted, with the old paint it drags on in this one area.
I am starting to wonder if I got a funky batch when I bought that 6 can case?

Not so sure it's an isolated issue Scale Master - I've heard of this before and the Top Studio MP4/4 build is experiencing this too. It's definitely a chemical attack on the underlying paint coats. When I used to paint 1:1 motorcycles and cars I was told that paints can go off "too old" by many paint suppliers, but I always thought that was just their way to sell more product, but it could be true that VOC's can evaporate from the mixtures, but in a spray-can it's all sealed??? - John

@ John, are you shore the paints from the MP4/4 Build help are from Tamiya? I asked a couple of days ago in this topic : http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1070828 but i got not a clear answer.
Well, i will be forced to do some tests to see how this two paints (TS 26, TS 36) and the Clear TS 13 work together.
@ scalemaster : how exactly did you paint the body? How much days, weeks or months between the colours? How did you paint / cleared ? Primer , TS 26, TS 13 , TS 36 and completlly cleared with TS 13 or Primer , TS 26, TS 36 and TS 13? You write somewhere your decals cleared with the Tamiya Clear (i suppose TS 13) are cracked, but that was on the white paint.
I ask you because i'm working on a Mclaren two and i sprayed the white color TS 26 and clearcoated with Tamiya TS13. Now i plan to use the Fluorescent red...Thanks in advance for your answer!

To answer your question, I used Tamiya Fine White Primer as the base.
Then applied TS-26 over all parts that were to be white or Fl. Red.
The white was allowed to dry and cure fully before the TS-36 was applied.
Once the TS-36 was built up, I sprayed a few light "sealer" coats of TS-13 over all the white and Fl. Red areas. Not moderate, not heavy coats, and within the standard recoat safe timeframe.
All was fine, for several weeks while it sat in a closet to dry/cure.
Then it went wonky and I had to chase the problems as they presented themselves... Now onto the present...


Finally (!), I was able to fix the paint that was not drying correctly. I sanded out the cracked areas on the nose section and repainted it. You can see it was being problematic for a while and that I had tried to repaint it before by the “tree rings”. Here is how nasty it was looking while being sanded out and reworked…
https://i.imgur.com/ADBS40e.jpg
As for the main red section of the body, I sanded out part of it and found that TS-36 can be successfully blended into finished areas of the same paint, so I only had to paint part of that big area. I applied the paint very, very slowly this time only by airbrush over an 8 hour period, lightly building it up and paying close attention to the blend lines. Once it proves to me that it is stable, I’ll move onto decals and clear coat…
https://i.imgur.com/FGqMJns.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5qPym33.jpg

Thank you for your answer. My personal opinion is that the clear (TS13) is your problem, not the paint.
I did some tests with the Tamiya TS 36 paint. I sprayed from the can on bare plastic. That was on 28 September. Today the paint is the same, no cracks and dryed complettly. I tryed to scratch the paint but i noticed the paint is hard. I don't have to much time to paint the Mclaren body in this weekend, i will travel a lot in the next weeks and i need to prepare my self and the car, but i hope i will spray this colour in 47 Week.

Wish you succes on your beautiful Senna/Mclaren.

While you may be correct about the clear being the problem, (i.e. trigger), I still think the problem is actually rooted in the TS-36 being a slow to dry paint. The paint I have never seems to fully cure hard, whether it is applied from the can or decanted and airbrushed.
The nose section that was shot months ago, (prior to the blending of the main body area) is still soft. Even where I masked off the Fl. Red on the main part of the body while touching it up, the surface was slightly marred by the tape, and that paint was applied over a year ago.

I suspect the clear dries faster and harder than the Fl. Red and therein is the problem, they don't move together as they dry/cure and shrink/outgas.

Yes, the TS 36 dry slower, that's true! But my samples are completly dry, and hard! I tryed to scrach them with my fingernails, looks ok! Maybe you should leave the paint to dry completly and spray after that with the clear. Anyway, this threed was a good worning for me, and i will try to find a way to solv this problem because i use the same paints and clears.

I left the body to dry in a closet for a little more than the last five months due to the paint wrinkling issue. It seemed like it had cured and might be stable…
https://i.imgur.com/JFNfo7E.jpg
So I sanded out the defects and reshot a white base and built up and blended the TS-36 Fluorescent Red into the rest of the rear section. It looks like I may be on my way to saving it as it still looks like this after about 24 hours… Only time will tell…
https://i.imgur.com/bShqJFs.jpg

OK, this thing has been sitting for a quite a while due to the paint fighting with itself on the main body. Most of the car is done; I just need to finish the body. A few times I sanded out the wrinkles (on the right rear) and touched up the paint only to have the issue come back a month or so later, so I stopped touching it up but continued to sand out the wrinkles as they appeared every few months. I thought I had won the battle back in April 2012, but sadly the same thing happened a little while after I painted it once again.
I continued to sand it as problems manifested, but I noticed it has been pretty stable all year.
It’s been about 6-8 months since I last sanded the problem area and it looked the same as when I last checked.
First I had to blend the white base in, and I found by tinting white primer with yellow and pink I could apply less paint and get an even blendable base. Then I started building up the Fluorescent Red.

You can see what I painted yesterday does not match, (it is too pale and lacking vibrancy, and not 100% uniform), but it is all the paint I can apply this round.
https://i.imgur.com/4etTkkj.jpg
Today I built up some more TS-36. Still not there, but getting closer…
https://i.imgur.com/fFp3NCt.jpg
It still needs another round of paint, but I’ll probably let this dry for a while to make masking easier…

Wow, It Lives!!!!

I hope you win this time around, Good Luck!!!

:) :) :)

This is a long drawn out project, i hope you get on top of it with all this hard work you are putting in.

Good to see you getting back on this one Scale Master
I will follow it to the end
John

It’s been well over a year since I last updated the work I’ve been doing on the body. Every month or two I’d color sand the wrinkles and let it set only to have new ones appear. I’d sand them out and wait and repeat. Looks like it might have finally stabilized, but I won’t be too surprised if it reoccurs either. After all, it’s been the better part of five years since I started painting the body…
Last night I took another stab at it and after sanding out some ripples I blended in some red on the right side and sharpened up the lines on the front with some white.
https://i.imgur.com/JRVJmwl.jpg

I started this in September of 2009. In January of 2011 I started noticing paint issues like cracking on the nose. At that point it was all TS paints including the clear. I fixed the nose by hand painting the damaged decals and then I sealed it in urethane. Then the paint on the rear wing went bad and I had to make new decals as replacements were not available. For five years I chased the paint on the main body. In my mind I had to keep using the same TS paints until I could get a stable finish and apply the decals. Then the plan was to clear it with urethane. I would get it looking nice and a few to several months later it would pick up waves or even wrinkles. I'd sand and buff them out, wait until the paint seemed cured and stable only to have it happen somewhere else.

Well, the paint never stabilized as of 2016 so I went on to several bigger and better projects and let the body sit in a safe place. Out of sight, out of mind... And it really got bad; wavy, wrinkly and just plain wonky over the years. The body actually cracked somehow. I'm not sure if it was due to the paint, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Here is what I'm re-starting with after I peeled some of the clear off. I'm surprised it shed that so easily.
https://i.imgur.com/DRoDGxC.jpg

I washed it up to get a better idea of what I was dealing with.
The only option, as I see it, is to strip it. Unfortunately the many layers of paint might as well be a combination of CA and stucco. About 15% of it peeled off to what appears to be the base white. I guess I forgot how many layers of both white and red paint I applied trying to get this to look decent and most of the red is now hard as glass and really well adhered. (So it does eventually cure.)
https://i.imgur.com/OO8k8ar.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aX3fAKK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KPMmBZN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/seovhhV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Lfy2K2u.jpg

I softened the front section with alcohol and was able to scrape much of it off, then I hand sanded it smooth. Some of the red on the rear peeled off too, with a good amount of forceful persuasion. What had peeled off easily was only on the surface. There's still a lot of paint under it.
There is good news as the cracks near the windshield were in the paint, not the plastic.
https://i.imgur.com/PtERABY.jpg

The sides/rear are a different situation.
I softened the red a little with more alcohol and tried to scrape it off. The right side was always more troublesome during the curing issues than the left for some reason. It is many layers deep and rather nasty.
https://i.imgur.com/s2v7nfX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/stUWiqx.jpg

I decided to try brake fluid. I am not a big fan of using it for stripping due to the damage it can do to some plastics, but even the 100% denatured alcohol wasn't cutting through the older paint. I mummified the body with wetted paper towels and let it soak like this for about half a day. The red bleeding out looked like a good sign.
https://i.imgur.com/UoOE8QB.jpg

Much of the layers of red and white were clearly softened by the brake fluid, but nothing sloughed off as hoped. I scraped the gummy-ish paint off and gave it a good water rinse before wet sanding for the better part of the afternoon. I should have taken a photo, but I went straight to sanding since it was still almost as nasty looking as the earlier photos. Overall I am pleased with the progress.
https://i.imgur.com/HPNMY2n.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZhVC8iF.jpg

A couple rounds of spot repairs in addition to the cracked areas at the cockpit, and a coat of white primer, and it looks ready for some TS-26 White.
https://i.imgur.com/C76efqn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Y5vxbru.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GsSk4oA.jpg

By 2011 I had a pretty good idea of what the cause of the issue was, and after a dozen years I'm sure that I have figured out the root issue from working with the same paints in different applications and combinations on several other projects since I started this one. Those later ones all turned out well and have proven to be stable long term as well.
The fluorescent red cures at a much different rate than other TS colors and the clear. Yes, it dries in about the same time frame and even feels dry to the touch, but it takes a lot longer to fully cure than both most other TS colors and the clear. While the clear also takes longer to cure than many TS colors, if it is applied to the fluorescent red before the red is fully cured, it can shrink and pull the softer red paint out of shape as it did on this body. The process that has worked long term every time for me is simple, use a urethane clear coat instead of the lacquer clear and let the red dry for a good bit longer than other TS colors.

After a few coats of TS-26 Pure White have had plenty of time to dry, it's time to start masking…
https://i.imgur.com/YdmJggU.jpg
The red was built up until it more or less matched the other parts painted the same color a decade or so ago. (Yes, it is the same batch of paint.)
https://i.imgur.com/ubXpCkf.jpg
This looks acceptable. Now it will sit and cure for at least a month, maybe two, maybe more.
https://i.imgur.com/m31qDDI.jpg

What a frustrating ordeal! It takes a special kind of patience to pick it up again and keep going. Bravo!