Hedman Headers !!!
Panoz Paul
11-09-2009, 02:57 PM
Greetings ... Just got off the phone w/ Chris Vandergriff , General Manager @ Hedman ... He stated that they would make long tube headers for the 302 in mild steel w/out ceramic coatings for
$ 500.00 a set ; but needs a production run of ten sets for his shop to tool up , plus a GT-Ra to fit or the other option is to communicate the modifications required to the GTS / 351 set-up ... His shop is in Atlanta ... :jerking: hmmmm ... Any one near his shop ... I'm in northern Minnesota ... The other question to ask ourselves is there any significant differences in these cars that would need attention ; my car is from Texas & had different motor mounts ... Thanks / Paul W.
$ 500.00 a set ; but needs a production run of ten sets for his shop to tool up , plus a GT-Ra to fit or the other option is to communicate the modifications required to the GTS / 351 set-up ... His shop is in Atlanta ... :jerking: hmmmm ... Any one near his shop ... I'm in northern Minnesota ... The other question to ask ourselves is there any significant differences in these cars that would need attention ; my car is from Texas & had different motor mounts ... Thanks / Paul W.
Blue Streak 21
11-09-2009, 10:39 PM
Put me down for a set! I can't help with the car in GA for fit checks, but I'd love to buy a set of headers.
Only need 8 more for the order.... Come on guys, these could add 10% power over those shorty headers. That's great performance increase for $500.
Jerry
Only need 8 more for the order.... Come on guys, these could add 10% power over those shorty headers. That's great performance increase for $500.
Jerry
boothkc
11-09-2009, 11:10 PM
Are you sure that there are issues with just using the 351 GTS headers??? You can install 351W heads on your 302 just fine with new push rods and perhaps rockers depending on the heads. I had an old set of aluminum 351W GT40 heads from the GTS that we put on my 302 GTRA. We also put on a carb so new manifold and distributor.
I would think the GTS headers would fit just fine. The 302 is about 1" narrower than the 351W, but there is enough slop in the clamps to make this up??
GTS headers are $1200 if I recall so $500 is a good deal.
You may want to look at custom header shops in your area as it may be cost effective to modify your 302 headers to long tube. I had some custom headers made for a V8 for <$1k.
Kevin
I would think the GTS headers would fit just fine. The 302 is about 1" narrower than the 351W, but there is enough slop in the clamps to make this up??
GTS headers are $1200 if I recall so $500 is a good deal.
You may want to look at custom header shops in your area as it may be cost effective to modify your 302 headers to long tube. I had some custom headers made for a V8 for <$1k.
Kevin
NZGTRA17
11-10-2009, 12:31 AM
Are you sure that there are issues with just using the 351 GTS headers??? You can install 351W heads on your 302 just fine with new push rods and perhaps rockers depending on the heads. I had an old set of aluminum 351W GT40 heads from the GTS that we put on my 302 GTRA. We also put on a carb so new manifold and distributor.
I would think the GTS headers would fit just fine. The 302 is about 1" narrower than the 351W, but there is enough slop in the clamps to make this up??
GTS headers are $1200 if I recall so $500 is a good deal.
You may want to look at custom header shops in your area as it may be cost effective to modify your 302 headers to long tube. I had some custom headers made for a V8 for <$1k.
Kevin
Kevin, the key header fit difference between the 302 Vs 351 is the block deck height. A 302 is 8.2" deck Vs 351 being 9.5" deck. Consequently the 351 is taller all round (including where the header flange bolts on) and wider. I have not tried to fit 351 Windsor headers to a 302 but expect there would be some fit and alignment issues due above. The Panoz may be a little more forgiving in this respect than a sedan as there is a lot more space around the engine.
What you guys really need is someone with a GTRA and a GTS to try fitting the GTS header to thier GTRA to see what issues occur.
Price wise though Guys, $500 is a steal. It cost me around NZ$1,000 in materials and say 50 hours to fab up my system. If you do buy a set though, get them HPC (or similar) coated and you will get great service life from them. A question though for Hedman would be what primary pipe size, primary pipe length and collector size would they make for the 302 as this will have a big impact on performance and gains.
Kel.
I would think the GTS headers would fit just fine. The 302 is about 1" narrower than the 351W, but there is enough slop in the clamps to make this up??
GTS headers are $1200 if I recall so $500 is a good deal.
You may want to look at custom header shops in your area as it may be cost effective to modify your 302 headers to long tube. I had some custom headers made for a V8 for <$1k.
Kevin
Kevin, the key header fit difference between the 302 Vs 351 is the block deck height. A 302 is 8.2" deck Vs 351 being 9.5" deck. Consequently the 351 is taller all round (including where the header flange bolts on) and wider. I have not tried to fit 351 Windsor headers to a 302 but expect there would be some fit and alignment issues due above. The Panoz may be a little more forgiving in this respect than a sedan as there is a lot more space around the engine.
What you guys really need is someone with a GTRA and a GTS to try fitting the GTS header to thier GTRA to see what issues occur.
Price wise though Guys, $500 is a steal. It cost me around NZ$1,000 in materials and say 50 hours to fab up my system. If you do buy a set though, get them HPC (or similar) coated and you will get great service life from them. A question though for Hedman would be what primary pipe size, primary pipe length and collector size would they make for the 302 as this will have a big impact on performance and gains.
Kel.
jmimac351
11-10-2009, 05:44 PM
Paul, did he happen to indicate whether he has the 351 versions available without requiring a 10 unit order?
PanozDuke
11-11-2009, 07:23 AM
Not trying to high jack this tread, but in the interest of header options: Gary Jones is working on a header system very much like Kel's 8 into 1. It is scheduled as a winter project. He'll be very interested in selling multiple sets to help absorb the prototyping and jig costs. No price has been determined, but it will be quite a bit more than $500 a set. Tom (cobrafang) and I are signed up and I think Tom's car will be used to do the first set. Go back and read Kel's report on the dyno results from his set up. WOW. Not only that but getting some heat and noise away from the driver is a big plus. Anyway this is another option to the Hedman unequal length long tubes as used on the GTS cars. If you want a set, let Gary know. Consumer demand is a powerful motivator and helps keep prices down :smooch:
I think there is a good chance the GTS headers would work on the GTRA cars, but they should be tried before purchase as was suggested. The driver's side is a real concern with the steering shaft.
Mike
I think there is a good chance the GTS headers would work on the GTRA cars, but they should be tried before purchase as was suggested. The driver's side is a real concern with the steering shaft.
Mike
NZGTRA17
11-11-2009, 02:12 PM
Not trying to high jack this tread, but in the interest of header options: Gary Jones is working on a header system very much like Kel's 8 into 1. It is scheduled as a winter project. He'll be very interested in selling multiple sets to help absorb the prototyping and jig costs. No price has been determined, but it will be quite a bit more than $500 a set. Tom (cobrafang) and I are signed up and I think Tom's car will be used to do the first set. Go back and read Kel's report on the dyno results from his set up. WOW. Not only that but getting some heat and noise away from the driver is a big plus. Anyway this is another option to the Hedman unequal length long tubes as used on the GTS cars. If you want a set, let Gary know. Consumer demand is a powerful motivator and helps keep prices down :smooch:
I think there is a good chance the GTS headers would work on the GTRA cars, but they should be tried before purchase as was suggested. The driver's side is a real concern with the steering shaft.
Mike
To help the undecided regards the benefit of a better extractor and exhaust system, see before and after dyno graph photo inserted below for my 5.0.
http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/NZGTRA/IMG_0454.jpg
You will note that mixture was lean for the before run affecting low down torque. We did a couple of additional runs after the exhaust had been cut off (to free things up) and rejetted at this stage to correct the lean condition. Best we could get with Panoz/Ford shorty headers still fitted and exhaust cut off was 313hp/301ftlbs.
As you can see above, fitment of the 8 into 1 system lifted power to 335hp/332ftlbs at the wheels and corrected to standard day temp/humidity conditions. We saw higher runs than this during tuning (343/340 as I recall) but above is last run with engine set up in "conservative" endurance tune that we did 6 hour with.
As always these results occurred with a certain combination of parts, dont assume that you will get the same results as there may be parts of your combination that will hold power back. That aside, the 8 into 1 proved its worth on my engine.
Kel.
I think there is a good chance the GTS headers would work on the GTRA cars, but they should be tried before purchase as was suggested. The driver's side is a real concern with the steering shaft.
Mike
To help the undecided regards the benefit of a better extractor and exhaust system, see before and after dyno graph photo inserted below for my 5.0.
http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/NZGTRA/IMG_0454.jpg
You will note that mixture was lean for the before run affecting low down torque. We did a couple of additional runs after the exhaust had been cut off (to free things up) and rejetted at this stage to correct the lean condition. Best we could get with Panoz/Ford shorty headers still fitted and exhaust cut off was 313hp/301ftlbs.
As you can see above, fitment of the 8 into 1 system lifted power to 335hp/332ftlbs at the wheels and corrected to standard day temp/humidity conditions. We saw higher runs than this during tuning (343/340 as I recall) but above is last run with engine set up in "conservative" endurance tune that we did 6 hour with.
As always these results occurred with a certain combination of parts, dont assume that you will get the same results as there may be parts of your combination that will hold power back. That aside, the 8 into 1 proved its worth on my engine.
Kel.
Panoz Paul
11-11-2009, 05:18 PM
How do you get a 8 to 1 set up :screwy:... Any pictures ; I just can't vision the geometry ... Very interesting !!! Might just go w/ the BBK equal tube shorty's ; they have dyno results of 8 to 15 hp ... still have all winter to think ... Thanks guys ; Paul W.
NZGTRA17
11-11-2009, 06:18 PM
How do you get a 8 to 1 set up :screwy:... Any pictures ; I just can't vision the geometry ... Very interesting !!! Might just go w/ the BBK equal tube shorty's ; they have dyno results of 8 to 15 hp ... still have all winter to think ... Thanks guys ; Paul W.
Paul, 8 into 1 is a bit of an oversimplification. System goes 4 into 1 on each site and then converges into a single 4" pipe prior to the 4" muffler. Each pipe section is of a tuned length and diameter to suit the engine specs (size, cam duration etc). The attached pic will give you some idea. Collector pipe from driver side wraps across the top of the bellhousing and then merges in with the passenger side collector prior to the muffler.
http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/NZGTRA/6HourPrepPhotos001.jpg
One thing to consider re the BBK tuned shorties Paul, is what system were they comparing to when the quote an 8 - 15hp gain? Could be over a standard system. If this is the case you may not see this level of gain as you already have headers on the car.
Kel.
Paul, 8 into 1 is a bit of an oversimplification. System goes 4 into 1 on each site and then converges into a single 4" pipe prior to the 4" muffler. Each pipe section is of a tuned length and diameter to suit the engine specs (size, cam duration etc). The attached pic will give you some idea. Collector pipe from driver side wraps across the top of the bellhousing and then merges in with the passenger side collector prior to the muffler.
http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/NZGTRA/6HourPrepPhotos001.jpg
One thing to consider re the BBK tuned shorties Paul, is what system were they comparing to when the quote an 8 - 15hp gain? Could be over a standard system. If this is the case you may not see this level of gain as you already have headers on the car.
Kel.
Rich F
11-11-2009, 06:41 PM
We used a similar type crossover on my old GT-1 car. They really work well when properly designed with your engine. I don't think they would fit our cars but I placed a link to Dynatech so you can see an asphalt circle track set up. We didn't have a passenger foot well etc. like the Panoz.
Rich
http://www.afabcorp.com/AFCO_Dynatech_USbrake/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=Dynatech&Category_Code=pavement
Rich
http://www.afabcorp.com/AFCO_Dynatech_USbrake/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=Dynatech&Category_Code=pavement
Craig245
11-11-2009, 08:02 PM
Put me down or a set. I know Cris very well, but didn't know he was affiliated with Hedman. I have Ford "Z" heads and I realize that the header may need a little modification to fit, but everything on a race car needs modification.
Craig
Craig
NZGTRA17
11-11-2009, 08:18 PM
[quote=Rich F;6063997]We used a similar type crossover on my old GT-1 car. They really work well when properly designed with your engine. I don't think they would fit our cars but I placed a link to Dynatech so you can see an asphalt circle track set up. We didn't have a passenger foot well etc. like the Panoz.
Rich
/quote]
Can be done Rich as the system I have put in is modelled off Transam/GT1 style systems. The trick is getting the lengths the same for both sides of the car while at the same time bringing the drivers side across to merge with the passengers side. We were able to achieve this at pretty much the tuned legths that we had calculated out. Just takes a lot of time and a few beers..........
Rich
/quote]
Can be done Rich as the system I have put in is modelled off Transam/GT1 style systems. The trick is getting the lengths the same for both sides of the car while at the same time bringing the drivers side across to merge with the passengers side. We were able to achieve this at pretty much the tuned legths that we had calculated out. Just takes a lot of time and a few beers..........
Craig245
11-11-2009, 08:29 PM
Put me down or a set. I know Cris very well, but didn't know he was affiliated with Hedman. I have Ford "Z" heads and I realize that the header may need a little modification to fit, but everything on a race car needs modification.
Craig
Craig
Panoz Paul
11-12-2009, 08:44 AM
Greetings ... Kel , what mufflers did you install ???
Are the linear mufflers that came on these cars part of the problem ??? I thought they were high flow ... thanks / Paul W.
Are the linear mufflers that came on these cars part of the problem ??? I thought they were high flow ... thanks / Paul W.
NZGTRA17
11-12-2009, 01:22 PM
Greetings ... Kel , what mufflers did you install ???
Are the linear mufflers that came on these cars part of the problem ??? I thought they were high flow ... thanks / Paul W.
Hi Paul, the system has only 1 muffler fitted. This is a 40 Series Flowmaster that a friend gave to me. The muffler was 3.5" center inlet and 3.5" center outlet (cant see this listed in the Superflow catalogue so dont know how or when he purchased it). The inlet and outlet were cut back close to the case which enlarged the inlet/outlet to 4" enabling the muffler to slot into the 4" single pipe just after the 2 x 3" secondary pipes were merged together (just back from the firewall extension that juts out the side of the car to the side panels).
We have a 95db limit over here and I have not been flagged as yet. The track that I run on has the sound meter on the opposite side to my exhaust so this may be getting us by. The car is still loudish inside (even with passenger side window fitted) but not so bad from the sde of the track. Certainly very distinctive note though being a single outlet system.
It will be interesting to see how it sounds with the 347 fitted as this engine will have quite a bit more compression so will have a bit more of a "bark" I expect.
The mufflers that were fitted to the system that came on my car were very ugly. They were extremely heavy and of the "punched in louvre type" where the gas flow is disturbed by and restricted by the louvers. Even though there is a lot more primary and secondary pipe in the system I have fitted now, I think it would be lighter than what I took off. This is mainly due to only having one exhaust down the side of the car and elimination of the heavy mufflers that were fitted.
Kel.
Are the linear mufflers that came on these cars part of the problem ??? I thought they were high flow ... thanks / Paul W.
Hi Paul, the system has only 1 muffler fitted. This is a 40 Series Flowmaster that a friend gave to me. The muffler was 3.5" center inlet and 3.5" center outlet (cant see this listed in the Superflow catalogue so dont know how or when he purchased it). The inlet and outlet were cut back close to the case which enlarged the inlet/outlet to 4" enabling the muffler to slot into the 4" single pipe just after the 2 x 3" secondary pipes were merged together (just back from the firewall extension that juts out the side of the car to the side panels).
We have a 95db limit over here and I have not been flagged as yet. The track that I run on has the sound meter on the opposite side to my exhaust so this may be getting us by. The car is still loudish inside (even with passenger side window fitted) but not so bad from the sde of the track. Certainly very distinctive note though being a single outlet system.
It will be interesting to see how it sounds with the 347 fitted as this engine will have quite a bit more compression so will have a bit more of a "bark" I expect.
The mufflers that were fitted to the system that came on my car were very ugly. They were extremely heavy and of the "punched in louvre type" where the gas flow is disturbed by and restricted by the louvers. Even though there is a lot more primary and secondary pipe in the system I have fitted now, I think it would be lighter than what I took off. This is mainly due to only having one exhaust down the side of the car and elimination of the heavy mufflers that were fitted.
Kel.
Panoz26
11-26-2009, 06:33 PM
Id love to know if they can do this for the LS1.
GTS#25
11-26-2009, 09:15 PM
Devin,
Give Mike a call http://www.aggressiveinc.com/mpmotorsports.html
He has an LS1 GTRA with a nice set of headers. I am not sure of the specifics, but he can point you in the right direction.
Doug
Give Mike a call http://www.aggressiveinc.com/mpmotorsports.html
He has an LS1 GTRA with a nice set of headers. I am not sure of the specifics, but he can point you in the right direction.
Doug
Blue Streak 21
11-27-2009, 10:41 AM
So did the forum generate enough interest in the headers to place an order? I'm still in if an order gets placed.
Jerry
Jerry
Gatorac
11-27-2009, 09:56 PM
Maybe it would be a good idea to post a new thread with the title of "$500 full length headers for 302 motor." The current title doesn't promote a lot of interest. I am seriously considering getting in on this deal if we can make it happen.
eric1h
11-27-2009, 10:06 PM
Devin I already talked to him when he and I chatted about the LS1 swap. Price was reasonable for a set of headers that were modified to work with our cars with the Ls1's
gosborne
12-01-2009, 12:09 PM
I've got a GT-WC car. Let's assume it will have a 302 based engine it.
Can anyone see any reason these headers, designed for the RA car, wouldn't work in a WC car??? If not, I may be in for a set.
Can anyone see any reason these headers, designed for the RA car, wouldn't work in a WC car??? If not, I may be in for a set.
David Eastman
12-01-2009, 05:35 PM
I can't think of any reason why the headers will not work on a WC car. Its my understanding that the frames are basiclly the same.
David
David
Franks Garage
12-05-2009, 05:52 PM
Put me down for a set.
Blue Streak 21
12-05-2009, 09:46 PM
Put me down for a set.
I'll put you on the list. Please go check out the "All I want for Christmas - New Headmans headers" post. That where we are putting together the people that want to buy a set.
I think we have 8 people that want to buy a set. Only need two more.
Jerry
I'll put you on the list. Please go check out the "All I want for Christmas - New Headmans headers" post. That where we are putting together the people that want to buy a set.
I think we have 8 people that want to buy a set. Only need two more.
Jerry
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