Car shut off

Again, the Catalina shut off on me. There was a lot of dew and mositure this morning here in NY. i remembered from last time the issue with the distributor possible getting wet at the car wash which led it to shut off. This time around, i took the cap off for a bit and even blew into it not knowing if that would really help. I tried to start and got nothing a few times. I then used starter fluid twice and on the 2nd attempt got it to turn over gave it gas and it was running from there. it took about 15-20 minutes as opposed to a full 8 hours back in june. My question is, could this have been a moisture issue again even though it didn't get directly wet? if so, how can i prevent that on days like today? i read somewhere about spraying WD40 in or around the distributor cap to displace water.

thanks

Moisture can prevent an ignition system from working in several ways. Moisture under the distripbutor cap is one way.
Moisture or condensation all over the spark plug wires, especially if the wires are old can stop an engine.
Moisture on the white part of the spark plugs themselves can also do this. There is a di-electric grease one can spread on the inside of the rubber spark plug boot which can help prevent this. The di-electric grease seals the top of the plug against moisture intrusion.

However, if your ignition system was truly messed up, it would not continue running after you used the ether. I think it's more likely your car was 'flooded', where the spark plugs inside the engine get splashed with raw gasoline and short-out. This can be caused by a carburetor choke that is set too-rich, or a non-functioning choke pull-off, or stepping on the gas pedal too hard when the engine is cold.

A car that's 'flooded' will fix itself if it's just left alone for a few hours. However, one can often clear-out the raw gasoline by:
1. Take off the air cleaner lid. If the choke blade is mostly closed, place a screwdriver in the top of the carb to hold it open.

2. Crank the engine while holding the gas pedal all the way to the floor. The car may start in 20-30 seconds. If it does not, stop cranking and try again in 20 minutes or so.

In the good old days, carbureted cars did this often. It's one of the reason why electronic ignitions were widely introduced in the early 1970's..... which brings me to my next point.
You should convert your system to all- electronic ignition system. They are less susceptible to such flooding problems and reduce tune-up maintenance. It's probably easiest to get a kit designed to upgrade an old car's distributor.

Lots of old-car owners around here have used this kit:
http://www.vintageperformance.com/retrorockets/PerTronixConversions.htm

You definitely have issues with water/moisture intrusion into the electrical system. But just to be sure it is limited to the engine bay, keep your fuel tank fairly full and add some Heet to get rid of any water that has condensed in the tank. An empty tank holds alot of moist air, and when the temperature drops overnight, you'll get condensation. The denser water falls to the bottom and gets sucked up by the pump.

Also, check to make sure the fuel pump's power connection is not being shorted by moisture.

Water displacing sprays can help prior to condensing events but the best way to prevent intrusion is to use silicone dielectric grease in all the plug boots, especially the wires to the coil primary and secondary. The better you can seal up the distributor the better.

converting to an all electric ignition sounds like the way to go. i'm going to have to look into that. funny you mention stepping on the gas pedal too hard. it happened as i was pulling out of a parking lot and accelerating to get into traffic. i wouldn't say that i floored it but i did give it a little gas to get out and because i was coming off a little incline. when i take off from a standstill i have to give it some extra gas because it seems to choke and hesitate for a quick sec. that's one of the next issues to address which my cousin attributes to possibly the fuel pump. the engine wasn't cold though as i had already been out and stopped at 2 different stores already.

converting to an all electric ignition sounds like the way to go. i'm going to have to look into that. funny you mention stepping on the gas pedal too hard. it happened as i was pulling out of a parking lot and accelerating to get into traffic. i wouldn't say that i floored it but i did give it a little gas to get out and because i was coming off a little incline. when i take off from a standstill i have to give it some extra gas because it seems to choke and hesitate for a quick sec. that's one of the next issues to address which my cousin attributes to possibly the fuel pump. the engine wasn't cold though as i had already been out and stopped at 2 different stores already.

The more details you give us for the circumstances of the failure, the better !!!! :). Older, carbureted cars can die for a variety of reasons so it's important to report the circumstances surrounding the failure. Your latest information changes my suspicions of the source of the problem.

Given the engine was nice and warm, it definitely is not a problem with a wet ignition.... (unless you just drove through a huge puddle at high speed!)

Also, given the warm engine, it probably isn't a flooding issue.

But a fuel pump that is very marginal will cause this problem. The QuadraJet carburetor, like yours has a small float bowl. So, just a few seconds of heavy acceleration will drain the float bowl. Unless the fuel pump is good and pumping strongly, the engine will die.

Also, change the carburetor fuel filter. The stock fuel filter is tiny and clogs quickly.

Also, itt's a good idea to get an additional larger, in-line fuel filter and install it just upstream of the fuel pump, where the small rubber hose is.
Most older gas tanks have lots of dirt/rust in them which can clog a small filter quickly and mess things up.

sorry about the lack of all details. since we already knew it might need replacing, i didn't inquire about it. but of course, these sytems all go hand in hand so it would have helped i'm sure.

The fuel filter i changed back in august when i thought that might have been the reason for the hesitation. On to changing the fuel pump it is.

me again........ so, the car shut off on me again last night. thankfully it was after i got off the highway and not far from my parents house. my father came over to help and he said the "choke plate" was stuck. it did not open when pushing down on it. he had to push up the piece i'm touching in the picture below. after opening the plate and keeping it open with the use of a wrench (something you told me before magicrat) , the car started up.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/livewire1568/SNC0005112.jpg

he mentioned the "choke spring" being bad i believe but i'm not 100% sure. he's familiar with the mechanics of the carburetor but he's no mechanic so the terminology may be incorrect. I'm new to the whole thing as if you can't already tell. he also said the carb may need to be replaced/rebuilt. Is there some component that can changed to fix this as opposed to the whole unit? Also, could this be what has given me the shut off issues in the past?

Last night was probably the last drive until next year so taking stuff apart won't be a problem. As a result of trying to get it to started with the assistance of some starter fluid, the car backfired like i never heard before in my life and the muffler looks like it literally blew up. So, the car will def be parked for some time.

Thank you

Excellent post. I wish everyone would go into such detail.

The backfire is consistent with someone trying to start a warm, flooded engine, especially one that is getting too much choke effect. The excess fuel floods and shorts out the spark plugs.... then the fuel is pumped through the engine and into the exhaust system. Often it accumulates in the exhaust pipe and muffler, all ready to go kablooey when the engine eventually starts.

A choke that sticks closed usually makes a vehicle blow black smoke out the exhaust. But, without the benefit of an electronic ignition, I can agree that it could flood the plugs, making the engine stall.

So, I agree, your choke may be malfunctioning for a variety of reasons.

The choke is controlled by a coiled bimetallic spring. This spring is made of two different types of metal sandwiched together. These metals have different rates of thermal expansion.

What this means is that, as the spring heats up, it slowly uncoils and pulls on a metal rod. That rod then opens the choke blade.

The choke spring is heated up by 2 different methods. In some cars, especially older ones, there is a tiny metal tube that runs from part of the car's exhaust system or intake manifold. This means, as the engine warms up, the choke spring warms up, too.

Other cars, especially newer ones, made in the '70's and '80's use an electric choke. This method uses a tiny electric heater located in the choke spring housing. A wire, connected to the ignition circuit provides electricity to slowly warm up the choke spring, which opens the choke.

So, lets assume you have an electric choke. Remove the air cleaner and look for a single electrical wire connected to the side of the carb. It should plug into a round, black plastic thing, about 2 inches in diameter. (This round thing is the housing for the choke spring and heater). Has the wire fallen off?

Get an electrical test light. Turn on the ignition key, clip the light onto the engine block (for a ground) and probe the metal end of the wire. The test light should go on.
If it doesn't, you have no power to the choke.

If it does go on,unplug the wire, take a bit of sandpaper and lightly buff the metal part of the electrical connector on the wire and on the choke housing. Plug the wire back in. Start the car and watch the choke blade. It should be closed before you start the car. As soon as the car is running, it should open a bit (if it stays completely closed, your choke pull-off mechanism is broken). As the car runs for a few minutes, the blade should slowly open more and more.

If the choke blade stays closed, yet you do have electrical power, then either the linkage is disconnected or the choke spring needs replacing. This spring, heater and housing come as one sealed unit. You replace the whole thing.

Note, a normal carb rebuild does NOT include a new choke mechanism. It would be a seperate component. And yes, you can replace the choke mechanism without rebuilding or removing the carb from the engine.

BTW if you do replace the choke, consider replacing the choke pull-off mechanism as well. This part prevents the choke from closing too far when the engine is cold, but is running.

One more thing..... that tiny linkage you point to is intended to prevent the air doors to the secondary barrels from opening, until the choke is fully open. The air doors are those 2 triangular things located behind the choke blade. What this means is that your 4 barrel carb works like a 2 barrel carb until the engine is warmed up. This ensures smoother full-throttle operation.
However, if that linkage gets sticky, it can either stop the choke from opening (making it run like crap) or prevents the secondaries from opening at all, which reduces power. So, make sure that the linkage moves freely and is not tight or binding.

thanks for the answer. i was watching a video about repairing/tuning carburetors and saw the choke pull off so i was gonna replace it anyway. hopefull over the next few months i can get things taken care of so next year will be as problem free as it can possibly be.

a few things......

I don't think i have an electric choke. i did not see any wire like you described.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/livewire1568/IMG_1481.jpg

Here is what my carb looks like when i pump the pedal and right before i start it.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/livewire1568/IMG_1490.jpg

Here after warming up a bit..... i can freely open the secondaries....
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/livewire1568/IMG_1491.jpg

On the occasions when the car has stalled while driving, and i tried to spray some carb cleaner, this is what I would be faced with below.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/livewire1568/IMG_1487.jpg
The secondaries stuck and not being able to open them. This is where we placed the wrench the last time it stalled to hold it open once we were able to get it open by pressing the linkage below. Then the car started.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/livewire1568/SNC0005112.jpg
Pressing this part off to the right closest to the choke pull off, also moved the linkage and allowed the secondaries to open up. With this info, does it give you any new ideas or solidify a particular theory? Is the stalling causally related to this linkage (or the parts connected to it) and/or the secondaries being stuck which happens everytime the car stalls
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/livewire1568/IMG_1495.jpg

All these different components of the carburetor I plan on replacing/repairing/rebuiding. This weekend though, the family and I had planned on going to MD from NY (approx 4 hours) for a few days and the room in this car is ideal. I wonder what small components might be able to be adjusted or replaced to allow for this trip or if we should nix that idea all together. The last thing I need is to be stuck on the side of some highway.

Another thing, when i turn the car on, if i don't let it warm up, as soon as i put it into D, it stalls. When i do let it warm up, once i go into D, I usually have to hold the brake with one foot and hit the gas with the other to keep it from stalling. I then go back to P, give it a minute and then go into D and take off. When taking off, there is some slight hesitation and i have to ease into giving it gas to keep it from stalling.

Thanks

Nice pics, thanks. I haven't had a carbed car in a long time (Ref: Merc Bobcat), but from the pics I can see scrape marks that the choke plate is making through the black buildup, signaling it is sticking. Get a toothbrush and carb cleaner and scrub that varnish & build-up off...the secondaries, too. Also check the butterfly valve shafts for excessive play. If they are worn, then they can become misaligned and interfere with the walls. In short, probly would do to rebuild the carb.

Nice pics. Some observations:

1. You have a thermal choke, not an electric. I mentioned thermal chokes in my earlier post, but I assumed it was an electric because you have an engine that was built when emissions were a major consideration. GM was switching over to electrics inthe early to mid-1970's as far as I know.

Well, you know what they say about assumptions!!

2. So you can see the choke housing, the thing with the black plastic disk. See the little steel tube that leads from the choke housing and goes down into the intake manifold? That conducts heat from the exhaust cross-over tube (which is in the intake manifold) and directs it to the choke. It does not conduct exhaust gases, just air thats heated by by the exhaust.

So, try gently removing the tube and make sure it's not blocked by debris. Also make sure the hole it fits into in the manifold is not visibly blocked either.

When your engine is warm, the choke should be fully open and the secondary air doors should be able to open. If they don't then chances are, the thermal choke spring is weak or not adjusted right. I think it's just weak and needs to be replaced, because, from the rusty screws holding the choke on, it's never been adjusted.

3. I suspect your choke pull-off may not be working at all. The pic shows a rusty spot on the linkage, at the left side of the choke pull off's slot in the lever. Imo this spot should be bare and shiney, not rusty, if the pull-off was working right.

4. I agree with earlier comments, your carb should be rebuilt. It is obviously leaking gasoline past the gaskets, hence the dark stains on the sides. This may also indicate that your needle and seat is leaking and/or the float has lost boyancy, both of which can cause drivability problems.

So, I suggest to have your carb professionally rebuilt. Make sure the rebuild includes a new 'needle and seat', a new float bowl (ask to see the old one, too) a new fuel filter, a new choke pull-off and a new choke mechanism (the housing with the spring in it).

Make sure you get your own carb rebuilt. Do not accept one on exchange, even if the rebuilder says it will be just as good.
GM made hundreds of variations on this particular carb design, so it's unlikely you would get an identical one on exchange anyways. Often, other variations will work okay, but it's best to stick with the one your car came with.

5. If a professional mechanic is doing the removal and reinstallation, suggest to him that you convert your carb to an electric choke. All this means is that the new choke housing will be an electric type. Electric chokes provide more consistent performance than an thermal unit, which is why GM switched to electric chokes in the mid-'70's.

But you need to run a simple switched 12 volt wire to energise the choke. A mechanic can do that in about 10 minutes anyways. But, if he does remind him not to use the coil wire. In your car, the coil uses 9 volts, not 12 volts like in later GM cars.

6. Finally, many of these engines from the '70's have a thermal switch that changes the distributor vacuum source from a manifold vacuum source to a ported vacuum source as the engine warms up. These thermal switches are on the intake manifold or thermostat housing. They often get stuck, and send manifold vacuum to the distributor all the time, which reduces power and fuel economy. It's easy and beneficial to bypass the switch so the distributor gets ported vacuum all the time. A decent mechanic can do this conversion in about 30 seconds.

7. While a mechanic is at it, ask him to keep an eye out for any rubber vacuum lines that are old, cracked, loose etc and have them replaced. These lines may all be 35 years old and be at they end of their lifespan.

If I may add another observation to the great pics....

The black discoloration coming from the choke area appears to be getting past the air cleaner gasket, making the nearby carb body discolored as well. Check into replacing the air cleaner housing-to-carb gasket, too.

If I may add another observation to the great pics....

The black discoloration coming from the choke area appears to be getting past the air cleaner gasket, making the nearby carb body discolored as well. Check into replacing the air cleaner housing-to-carb gasket, too.

A good carb rebuild kit comes with such a gasket, which is good for the do it yourselfer. But professional carb rebuilders never seem to include one.

However, imo, all that black stuff in the primary side of things comes from the crankcase vent-tube gases, and not from dirt. Often, such black build-up disappears from my vehicles when I have vented the crankcase somewhere other than the air cleaner housing. But I don't suggest the OP do that, since it's an emissions no-no.

is it better to get the orginal carb rebuilt, buy a rebuilt (though from above i think i know the answer), or buy a new carburetor? I have no intentions on needing one that has the ability to be tuned for anything other than normal driving circustances.

Make sure you get your own carb rebuilt. Do not accept one on exchange[/B], even if the rebuilder says it will be just as good.
GM made hundreds of variations on this particular carb design, so it's unlikely you would get an identical one on exchange anyways. Often, other variations will work okay, but it's best to stick with the one your car came with.
....

understood. sorry

Noticed something while under the hood. According to a diagram of my carburetor, the "rear vacuum break diaphragm" seems to be disconnected from the hose. I didn't do that so I don't know how long it may have been like this. Could this be a cause of the shut offs that seem to come out of nowhere?

thank you
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/livewire1568/untitled-1.jpg

Noticed something while under the hood. According to a diagram of my carburetor, the "rear vacuum break diaphragm" seems to be disconnected from the hose. I didn't do that so I don't know how long it may have been like this. Could this be a cause of the shut offs that seem to come out of nowhere?

thank you
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/livewire1568/untitled-1.jpg


That looks like an EGR valve.. :2cents:

As much rust and fuel leakage as I see on the outside of that beast, I'd be willing to be the internals of that thing are gummed up bad and the gaskets are probably not much better.

i plan on rebuilding but saw that and was curious. i plugged it up and the ran like shit. add it to the list.
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