Crank Sensor replacement night mare

I,ve got a 97 Lesabre. Okay, so I finally figure out how to pull the harmonic balancer off in order to replace the crankshaft sensor. Once I replace the sensor I go back on with the balancer, Torque it to 110-111 ft lbs. and not only will the car not start the sensor pickups (steel teeth on the back of the balancer) rub against the sensor as well as the engine case! I've had ths apart about four times now. Haven't been able to figure it out. The crank shaft is keyed. The manual claims the balancer should be able to be pulled off by hand-NOT! I'm sure my neighbors are tired of seeing the right side of the front end sitting on a jack stand in front of my house. Winter's coming. Any suggestions are much appreciated.:runaround:

Good morning,

I replaced the crank sensor on both our '97 as well as my '91. The '97 had no adjustment of the position of the pickup as I recall. Therefore there was nothing to align after fastening the sensor in place. Could some of the fins on the balancer be bent so that they touch the pickup? Maybe you can test the clearence of the fins to the pickup before completing the job!?? And I did have to use a puller on both the '97 and '91. Earlier models could removed by hand, I'm told.

As to the starting problem, if he new pickup is OK and there is no connector/wire problem associated with it, then maybe there is another source of not starting.

Regards,
Jack C.

I appreciate your reply. The pickup ring initially were bent side to side and I straightened them out. They are running between thf fins of the sensor okay but rubbing against the base and on the opposite side against theengine block. I'll take yet another hard look at the pick up ring to see is somehow it could have gottten pushed/pulled out some how. I think it not starting probably has something to to with the rub because you can hear it. Did you change your cam shaft sensor at the same time you changed the crank sensor? My brain box only indicated the crank sensor was at fault.

Best regards,

Bernie

If I were you, I'd take the balancer to a salvage yard and compare it to a salvaged one. Sounds like you may need a replacement. I also used a puller when replacing the sensors on my '97. I have 2 '97 Lesabres and have done them both. As mentioned, there is no aligtment needed. When you put the balancer back on, it should clear the fins. Something is out of whack on it if rubbing.

I had a broken wire on one of the connectors where the wiring was bent and pulled tightly upward from the sensor. Had to solder in a plastic clip from another old piece of a wiring harness to make it work.

Jack and Smith , thanks for both of your suggestions. Good news. It turns out; some how aparently during the removal process somehow one of the puller screws went through the balancer to the pick up ring and bent the ring out on one side. I can believe it took so long for me to notice it! Haven't had a chance to throw it back together yet but hope to in the next couple of days. I'll let you all know if all goes well.:)

Good deal. You must have a different type of puller from what I have. The one I have grips the edge of the balancer. Hope it runs.

Ugggh! It still doesn't start! Pulled it apart again. (I'm on my second puller; should have kept original lubed better) This time pulled the new sensor off that got rubbed. Looks like just surface chaffage although not sure if initial impact may have damaged internals. Checked resistance of wires going from ignition module to sensor connector. Good. Need to re-verify a no spark condition in case for some reason it's now a different problem than at first. May take chaffed part and compare resistance to a new part at the part store. Suggestions welcome.:banghead:

Sir,

What was the reason for your replacing the crank sensor? Did you have a code indicating that was at fault? Maybe there is something else that is causing the problem. Do you have fuel pressure? Do the injectors work? Is there spark at the plugs?

Regards,
Jack C.

Yes I used a analyzer from Sears that revealed the code for the crankshaft sensor. Sorry I thought I had mentioned that earlier in the thread. About a month before this I had replaced the fuel pump/seding unit and fuel filter which solved the problems at that time. This is different from that. Further suggestions please.

Mechb,

You need to see if you have spark at the plugs; you also need to check for fuel pressure.

In replacing the crank sensor, are you confident that the connector and wires are all in good condition?

Regards,
Jack C.

Jack,
The wires from the ignition module to the sensor appear to be in good condition and ohmed out good (0 resistance between ends). I'm at work today however when I get back to it today or tomarrow I do plan to check for spark and fuel pressure. Thank you for your thoughts.:jerking:

Bernie

Update...exchanged the sensor I had damaged with the bent reluctor ring, After bending the ring back into shape as much as possible (looke pretty good) the engine still does not start smelled fuel. Acts like its way out of time. Might be time to go after a new reluctor ring or a whole new or used harmonic balancer assembly with the ring. Uggh!

Update... Might be time to go after a new reluctor ring or a whole new or used harmonic balancer assembly with the ring. Uggh!The reluctor ring is riveted to the balancer, so you have no choice except to replace the balancer. If you add up the labor you have involved in this project, you could have bought several balancers by now! :iceslolan Good Luck!

Sir,

Unless the reluctor ring has been shifted (rotated) with respect to the keyway on the balancer, I see no way that it could be the problem. If the ring passes thru the pickup slot as it did before, it should still do its function. DID YOU TEST FOR SPARK??
It sounds like you have the injectors working.

Regards
Jack C.

After bending the ring back into shape as much as possible (looke pretty good)

Several years ago, I had a serpentine belt break and some fragments got wound up in the reluctor ring and bent several tabs. When straightening the tabs, I used a set of calipers with a depth gage to measure the distance from the inside ring of the balancer to each tab. I used several known good tabs as a reference point. I don't think you could get this right with only visual judgment of the distance. (It may LOOK good, but it may not actually BE good) :rolleyes:

If you add up the labor you have involved in this project, you could have bought several balancers by now!!

You know what they say about hindsight being 20/20. I'm learning some things along the way. And I still need to pull a plug wire off to check for that spark. I may pull it off one more time and check it with a dial caliper or just go get a new assembly from the salvage yard for $25. I'm an expert at pulling these now!

Checked for a spark. Yes there is a spark but not blue. It's yellow. This is confusing!

Update 11/11/09 Happy Veterans Day first of all. Took of the harmonic balancer one last time hopefully. Found the distances between refractor rings and between inner ring and shaft to be several thousanths different from on side to the other. Going to try (like someone suggested) gettiing them all close to the distances measured on the side that was not initially damaged. If it even acts different when I go to start it (even if it still does not start but acts differently than it did) I'll likely go to the salvage yard and get a replacement. We'll see. I'll let you all know what happens in case your interested.
Still open to ideas! Thanks all!

Got'em as close as I could using a dial caliper to measure. No change. won't start. Last time I checked it had a weak spark while being jumped. Thinking about towing it to the professional shop......., or just shooting it!

Ok, I went out and bought another harmonic balancer from the salvege yard and.....the car still does not start. The engine turns but it won't start. Taking a look at the ignition towers....

Alright I don't know if anyone is paying anymore attention to this thread anyway the replacement harmonic balancer made no difference except my wallet. I made sure the fuel pump and injector fuses were in good shape (the were good). Cleaned up the ground by the battery I removed the ignition amplifier had it bench checked and it's also good. Perhaps the timing chain jumped a tooth when the balancer refractor fins hit the sensor??? Heck maybie its been the timing chain all along the car's got 114,233 miles on it, I'm running out of ideas here. Suggestions welcome Thanks!

Sounds frustrating. When attempting to start it, does it stumble, or event try to fire?

After clearing the original code, is it setting a code still?

What was the original code that it set that prompted replacement of the crank sensor?

When attempting to start it, do you smell gas? If there is gas and spark in the cylinders, it should be trying to fire occasionally.

Where are you seeing yellow spark, at the coil towers or the plugs? What is your battery voltage when attempting to start?

First, Hey I really appreciate you guys response. I've been keeping the battery on trickle charge and switching it to "start/charge" when I attempt to start it or even jumping it with another vehicle. The voltage is up arounnd 12 or 13V. I get the yellow spark at the plug end of the plug wire. When I attempt to start it does slightly back fire at times. Initially it set the code for the crank shaft sensor. Not sure right now I think it was like P0306 anyway I'm it was the crank sensor code and its gone away and when testing during start attempt usually reads "PASS" (no codes) sometimes it will give me a pending "manufacturer emissions something or another" I'm thinking this is related to the backfire. I do smell gas and have cracked the manifold and verified gas is present also here the new fuel pump kick on after the system has depressurized. I dont recall right now how to easily check TDC of the #1 piston in relation to the timing gear with out pulling off the timing chain cover. Is there a way?Again I really appreaciate your thoughts on this.

With only 114K miles, the timing chain should be fine, I think something else is causing your problem. Please answer the following questions the best you can.

1) What is the reason you decided to replace the crank sensor? Was it only because you had a DTC for that, and was the engine starting & running before the crank sensor install fiasco?
2) Have you removed the plugs and are they wet, or clean?
3) What is the fuel pressure?
4) Have you tested the spark with a plug removed & ignition wire attached (grounded to the block) with the plug gap extended to .200 to see if fire the gap?
5) Have you checked for 12V to the ICM pink wire (ignition feed) with ignition switch turned ON?
6) Have you used a noid light to test injector firing? (Smell of gas is not a good test)
7) Have you tried spraying some carb cleaner in the throttle body before starting?

BTW, any DTC set without the engine running, is totally meaningless!

Okay, I'll try to get the information requested asap although I don't own all thr test equipment I'll do the best I can. The car has had a history of not starting at times after it got warmed up wait 10-15 minutes it started right up. Then the fuel pump and sending unit failed the car would not start at all so I replaced that unit. The car started immediately. Finally the car would not start again at all thats when I put the analyzer on it and it indicated the CS sensor. I have yet toremove the plugs but they are good plugs, I think I replaced them at about 100K. I dont have a gauge to check the fuel pressure guess I can buy one at a parts store. Is there a place to tap into the manifold? No I haven't done the check with the spark plug or the ICM pink wire voltage check yet. I do not own a noid light. Again I guess I can buy one. Havent tried any carb cleaner either. I'll get the rest of the information as soon as I can get back to it. Thanks.

Bern

What kind of plugs did you use?

Jrs3800

I'm not positive of the brand (AC Delco?) I'll pull some plugs and check it out. Like I said I don't think the plugs are very old and the car ran beautifully before it just seemed not start kind of all of a sudden. I'll check them tonight. Keep the thoughts coming!

Thanks.

Bern

Have the plug wires been off since you been working on it? Is there a possibility the wires are not on right, such as reversed?

Quick update: I pulled plugs one at a time last night. They are AC Delco 100K mile plugs. They were black and at least half had a somewhat significant amount of coking. I cleaned them up, checked the gaps and reinstalled them. because they appear to still be in good shape. At least one of the plug wires (in the back) I noticed is dried out (heat related) cripy inside and not pliable. Definitely a problem. It was getting late so I didn't have time to thouroughly go through the rest. Near by parts stores were as closed by this time. I reinstalled all the wires and attempted a start it seemed to almost start up over but then didn't so I'll be picking up at least a set of wires today...and plugs too.

NOTE:I could not find written down anywhere the date I last changed the plugs so I may be thinking of my previous 95 Lesabre. These plugs I think I remember because they're the kind with a pointy electrode. I know, I know, plugs are relatively cheap. I should go ahead and just replace them to eliminate any doubt.

If this solves the problem I'll feel like an idiot but I'll sure be relieved. :shakehead

I'll let you know.

Thanks again all!

Unfortunately the new plug wires did not resolve the problem. I checked the pink wire and did get approx 12V on the pink wire at the ICM with the key on. I'll move forward with HotZ28's action plan as soon as I purchase noid light and pressure tester/guage.

Thanks again all

Quick update: Fuel pressure at the manifold reads between 45 & 50 psi. Tested two injectors with a noid light so far (I got interupted) and they are both good. Blinked as advertised. My car's out in the drive way so I need to work around the weather. I'm really thinking the timing chain jumped but I'll check the other four injectors before I drain fluids and pull the cover. Still open to more suggestions. Have a happy Thanksgiving folks and thank you all!

The injectors checked out GOOD using the noid light.

Need to still accomplish items 4 and 7 of HotZ28's 11/14 post.

More sugestions before I find #1 piston TDC, pull the tc cover and see if the dots line up?

Thanks again all!!!:confused: