CFing question

Ok, I've been around long enough to know the basics of applying carbon fibre decals to complex surfaces. I'm also familiar with the Micro products. I've also read everything that I can get my hands on to get better on this part of modeling but I seem to get stuck at the same spot every time.

As a bike modeler the parts that usually get cf treatment (besides smaller stuff) is the front and rear mud guards. They are both pretty rounded but I see people cf:ing them all the time. Flawlessly. So I have here a couple of images of such a fender. To show more than write what the issue is.

First picture. I have a cf decal piece cut to shape. It has been soaked in water and MicroSet. I've slid the piece onto the part and started working it out using my fingers or a brush dipped in more MicroSet. As the shape of the fender is round I am bound to have wrinkles in the four spots that you can see on this pic.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/joelwideqvist/marlboro9901/cfwet.jpg

So how do you work them out? Cause all I get is this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/joelwideqvist/marlboro9901/cfdry.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/joelwideqvist/marlboro9901/cfdry2.jpg

I get the piece covered but there is tiny folds where the wrinkles were. And that makes the pattern look pretty bad. I shall add that before those last pics I've also used Micro Sol.

Any tip (beside "go look at the FAQ or www.justfuckinggoogleit.com) would be very appreciated.

Best regards
Joel

I haven't ventured into CFing yet, but don't have you to cut darts into CF pieces laid on rounded surfaces?

I use hot towel to press the decals in place, or, where hot towel is not possible to use, hair dryer at medium heat setting. Lots of Microsol. While heating the decal, help it conform with wide brush dipped in water.

I also use a hair dryer and MicroSol, but at pretty high heat. It seems to me that I use the MicroSol when it's time to just flatten the wrinkles out. When I have come to the end of te road so to speak.
/Joel

Joel,

I use a combination of several things(most times in this order)--first, Micro sol. Works like magic. Second, hair dryer. On a fender like you showed, I would use micro sol, use hair dryer, then cut along the apex of the kink and try and align the two edges so that the pattern isn't "out of line."

I have this happen all the time and this technique works well.

Daniel

then cut along the apex of the kink and try and align the two edges so that the pattern isn't "out of line."

Sounds interesting - any chance of of picture showing this technique?

I also use a hair dryer and MicroSol, but at pretty high heat. It seems to me that I use the MicroSol when it's time to just flatten the wrinkles out. When I have come to the end of te road so to speak.
/Joel

hi,
what kind of CF decal are you using???
I had trouble with SMS decals I found them a bit thick then I bought some Crazy Modeler ones and they work just perfect on surfaces like your fender

http://www.hiroboy.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=10&products_id=1937

http://www.hiroboy.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=10&products_id=1297

I have the extra thin version but for my fender I used the thin one and that was just fine!

http://www.hiroboy.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=10&products_id=1299


good luck!

Well it is kinda difficult to explain but I try my best...

When you do curved parts like that you should start with brushing some Micro Set on the part then put the decal on followed by Micro Sol. To help the softening process you should heat it with the hairdryer but be careful, you will damage the CF or worse the part if it gets to hot.
It should look like the first pic you posted now. But the key is to minimize the wrinkles as much as possible because as you learned wrinkles like that won't disappear... There is a specific window for the decals (looks like you are using SMS, right?) where you are able to get the wrinkles out, if they are to dry they will settle and all you do is damage them when you touch them (the little dark spots in your pics for example could be caused by that) and on the other side if they get to soft (too much micro sol) you will damage them just as easy...
I usually try to get the wrinkles out with my fingers (stretching them, just moving them around a little bit etc.) no q-tips or anything just make sure that you finger is wet otherwise the decal will stick to it and you can start again :p. But that is a personal preference, some like q-tips... but I think the fingers are better because you actually "feel" what is going on.... I know it sounds stupid :grinno::grinno:
So as soon as you managed to minimize these big wrinkles you should add lots of micro sol and the wrinkles will disappear. You could then again use the hair dryer to help the softening process.

When you give it a second shot, try to minimize the wrinkles with getting them out like this. I haven't done fenders like that but I think it should work out like this...
http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/88/52588/3739333435336161.jpg

I hope that helps a bit. It is pretty much learning by doing. You should practice a bit and try out how far you can go to get the wrinkles out, you will then quickly understand what you can do with the decals and what not...

I agree with practice, practice, practice... Learn the limits of the decal/solution/patience. :iceslolan
I use MicroSol almost exclusively. MicroSet seemingly does nothing and Solvaset is too harsh for me. I brush on MSol, lay the decal on, let it work, more Sol, tap the "high spots" with a WET brush, let it work, more Sol :evillol:, and keep repeating until I get the results that work for me. Those mud guards are one of the hardest surfaces in modeling to get smooth though, I think.
Erick --

From my experience the Micro-Sol shrinks the unrestrained parts of the decal slightly as it dries causing it to conform to the surface it's applied to. Thinner decals tend to shrink more. I've discovered it's important when conforming the decal to the shape that the decal be allowed to dry before another application. Applying MicroSol repeatedly without allowing the decal to dry will stop the conforming process.

Thanks New Tom and Decs0105 for your input.

Decs: So you actually use Micro Sol when you are working the wrinkles out with your finger? I thought that would just smudge the decal... I agree with you on the trial and error mode but I'm pretty much stuck in error mode right now and needed some new input.

I think the SMS cf is pretty fragile and tend to dry pretty quick, and as you say, when dry it brakes very easily.

Thanks again.

/Joel

Damn this live chat thing...

First, Racer 93, I missed your post. I think it hard to cut the decal at that stage. It mostly cracks. And as the surface is bent it must be impossible to line it up, or? Perhaps good enough.

Dlphnfn: Once again, I thought it would just smudge the decals if using MicroSol that way. Everywhere you read about it they say "dont touch the decal while MicroSol is working on it"...?

CrateCruncher: Ok, so you add Sol, then let it do it's job without touching the decal. When dry, just repeat?

/Joel

Ok, so you add Sol, then let it do it's job without touching the decal. When dry, just repeat?

/Joel

Yes, but there is a limit to what MicroSol can do. As the stuff begins to soften the decal on the initial application I also use a stiff brush to make 4 or 5 small pleats instead of one large one. The MicroSol can more easily shrink the smaller ones.

If you are still getting wrinkles despite several MicroSol applications you may need to find thinner decals for your fenders...

...
Decs: So you actually use Micro Sol when you are working the wrinkles out with your finger? I thought that would just smudge the decal... I agree with you on the trial and error mode but I'm pretty much stuck in error mode right now and needed some new input.

I think the SMS cf is pretty fragile and tend to dry pretty quick, and as you say, when dry it brakes very easily...

Yes I use Micro Sol when working the wrinkles out but you don't have much time because when the magic starts (decal getting super soft :evillol:) you can't touch it anymore otherwise you will damage the decal. When you got the big ones out just apply micro sol and that will do the rest. You can also repeat that if you are not satisfied. By the way I apply micro sol with a soft brush which helps to get smaller wrinkles out while "brushing" it.

So far I haven't found anything better than the SMS decals for complex surfaces, they are really thin (and therefore fragile) and from my expierence they should be perfect for a part like that...

Hi Joel,

Let me have some comment, maybe it will help you to have better result in the future.
That is normal what you have on your first photo, but obviously 2nd picture is not the desired outcome :)
What is think is you can have whatever techiuqe or method or tools, the most important thing is time. (of course only if you use good cf decal)
First of all i always make a gloss black surface before i apply CF.
than - if you use template, you should make it at least 10% bigger than to original part, it will give some treshold during application.
than - i never used MicroSol products , so i cannot comment on them, i use Mr setter and Mr softer. I apply a coat of setter to the part before i put on the decal, the a lot of softer. In the begining i use a soft flat brush.
And this is the phase where you have to spend time. when i see that the wrinkles are getting smaller and the brush is not useful anymore i use my finger. of course also wet. if the decal is soft enough you can easily get rid of the small wrinkles by streching the decal.
- I know that many people use hairdryer, but i never used so dont know in which phase it can be used.
but you can have below result with the above mentioned way
hope you can use it for next build

Gergo

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3900/cfelsosar.jpg
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/4822/cffej.jpg
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/8551/cftank.jpg

Stretching the decal i think is key in your situation, but too much can lead to tearing. What i would try is what decs mentioned, only he has 4 arrows which will get rid of the two wrinkles but create more. Stretch them in and outward if that makes sense. Just like when you were taught to apply regular decals, one motion all the way through when drying with a cloth.
I also agree with 360 with the hot towel. I use that method all the time, but never use it together with a softner. Does help the decal to conform to irregular areas.
I have never covered a bike fender, but i did cover a few wheel wells for cars. It always doesn't work out, theres been countless times when i had to strip the part and repeat. You can also try cutting the decal along the cf pattern and lay down 2 or 3 decals. Some modellers do this and you would never thought it was more than one decal as the pattern looks flawless.
SMS decals are my only choice so far, but if i was you i would try sms's new cf decals. They are actually a little smaller in design and a little darker. The one you showed i used in the past, but for some reason the new ones go on easier. Like people stated before maybe the decal is too thick? Well enough of my opinion, good luck.

Geronimo: Your work is like magic. It is work like that that makes me think I could at least do a little bit better...

MidMazar (and others): I don't really get that stretching thing. Do you actually grab it by the wrinkle and pull in two different directions or can you explain further?
/J

Geronimo: Your work is like magic. It is work like that that makes me think I could at least do a little bit better...

/J

Thanks :)
But it is not magic. It is only matter of time :)

About streching. after certain amount of softer decals will be able to strech. in this case you can strech a bit the wrinkles sideways but take care not to create new wrinkles. or if you cannot avoid the new wrinkles try to make them smaller. Than you can start again and you will always get smaller and smaller wrinkles and at the end it will dissapear. when the wrinkles are small enough you can try to smooth them with your wet finger.

Hmm, time seems like the key issue on both sides. For one, you have to work quick as the decals soften. On the other hand you have to take it slow and work those wrinkles out...

Thanks a million for all kind tips. I'll have to try another fender and see if I get it right.

Once again, geronimo, that front mud guard is truely amazing...
/Joel

I don't want to take this too far off topic but I have a related question.

Is it the consensus of the experts here that using a single piece of carbon fiber decal is the best way to cover pieces shaped similar to this motorcycle fender/mud guard? I have problems using the stuff on parts a lot less complex than that fender, but if one single decal can really be manipulated to get results like Geronimo's, then I've got a lot of practice ahead of me.

I don't want to take this too far off topic but I have a related question.

Is it the consensus of the experts here that using a single piece of carbon fiber decal is the best way to cover pieces shaped similar to this motorcycle fender/mud guard? I have problems using the stuff on parts a lot less complex than that fender, but if one single decal can really be manipulated to get results like Geronimo's, then I've got a lot of practice ahead of me.

Hi,
I usually try to use as less decal piece as possible. But of course there are shapes which phisically cannot be done with a single piece.
Its not always worth to strugle with single piece if multiple piece gives the same result. If you can match the piece without having bad edges than after clear coat it will looks the same if it was from single piece.