Bad day on the dyno!

So after a long wait, i brought the car to the dyno to get it tuned.

First run the car seemed to run fine, pretty rich, but hit a brick wall at 5500rpms.


Swapped down 4 jet sizes front and rear, and lowered the timing on the MSD, repulled, same thing, except it ran leaner, same brick wall at 5500rpm's


changed to new plugs made a few tweaks and went to repull, the car started making a mad knocking/tapping noise, after some investigation and cutting open the oil filter(brand new as of today) we found some metal shavings in there

So it appears we spun a bearing or something.

WTF!!???

Motor only ha 17k miles on it

Sorry to hear the bad news Eric. You put in alot of effort into this engine swap to be rewarded like this.

David

That sucks.

WTF is right... not normal for a LSX at all. What kind of oil pressures were you seeing? What weight oil were you running?

Not good news Eric. Always hard to know when you buy 2nd hand engines what they have been pulled for. E.g. could have been in a car that rolled and starved of oil momentarily etc.

Hope that the crank and rods come out of this OK.

My worst nightmare... put the car on a dyno and watch it break. Sorry Eric, that really sucks. It's bad enough when these things happen but it's really rough after putting so much time into the project.

Man I am sorry to hear that Eric. SUCKS like a brand new Kirby!

WTF is right... not normal for a LSX at all. What kind of oil pressures were you seeing? What weight oil were you running?

Oil pressure was 70psi at idle and 85-90psi in the upper RPM range

Oil was just some 10-40 valvoline

Thanks guys, I'll get it sorted out, hoping its fairly easy fix. the knock is brand new and hasnt been run more than a few minutes so hoping the damage is minimal.

I am really sorry too....after blowing about 5 myself (with 2 cars) is the exact reason we built engines that are capable of twice the hp that we actually run them at. Bullet proof is the name of the game...expense is secondary because of the time and effort and expense when they break....I have learned my lesson the HARD way!

Good luck...if its gonna happen it happened at the right place...ruining a weekend is costly and hurts MUCH worse.

Oil pressure was 70psi at idle and 85-90psi in the upper RPM range

I am not experienced with LS engines Eric, but that oil pressure sounds to high (particularly the idle figure).

Only time I have had oil pressure like that with a V8 is with a dry sump system with a way big pressure section fited to the pump (big block 1.25") on a small block. That was only 30psi at idle but would crank up over 100psi with cold oil at 4000+ rpm

Unless normal for an LS (which I though were normally oil low pressure) could have been a sign of a restriction in the oil path.

That is very high oil pressure.. what the car up to temp and still showing 70 psi? I have a high volume LS4 oil pump in my car and get 40 PSI at idle w/ a M1 filter and 49 w/ a K&N w/ 5w40 amsoil when hot. The K&N bumps idle pressure as it's less restrictive than the M1 media.

In 2001 all LSXs got the LS6 oil pump. A stock car w/ 5w30 hot will make 29-30 psi at idle. A pre 2001 LS1 makes 25-27 psi at hot idle.

Did you touch the oil pump? My car makes mid 80s WOT when hot, but w/ a stock oil pump it should be mid 60's WOT hot and 50ish WOT super hot (270ish oil temp) on track.

Good luck.

That is very high oil pressure.. what the car up to temp and still showing 70 psi? I have a high volume LS4 oil pump in my car and get 40 PSI at idle w/ a M1 filter and 49 w/ a K&N w/ 5w40 amsoil when hot. The K&N bumps idle pressure as it's less restrictive than the M1 media.

In 2001 all LSXs got the LS6 oil pump. A stock car w/ 5w30 hot will make 29-30 psi at idle. A pre 2001 LS1 makes 25-27 psi at hot idle.

Did you touch the oil pump? My car makes mid 80s WOT when hot, but w/ a stock oil pump it should be mid 60's WOT hot and 50ish WOT super hot (270ish oil temp) on track.

Good luck.

The oil pump is a LPE HIgh Volume High Pressure Oil pump, that's what it's "supposed" to be at.

and FYI, that's about the same pressure that my old 4.6L motor ran as well. it started out at 85-95 PSI at idle, devins car was/is the same.

It all depends on how hot they are... oil pressure varys drastically w/ temp. You sure it's a high volume pump? LPE generally sells a ported LS6 pump which still has the stock gerotor. The LS4 pump has a different gerotor which flows more oil with each revolution.

70 psi at idle hot is too high... trust me. Hot being abotu 210 oil temp.

It all depends on how hot they are... oil pressure varys drastically w/ temp. You sure it's a high volume pump? LPE generally sells a ported LS6 pump which still has the stock gerotor. The LS4 pump has a different gerotor which flows more oil with each revolution.

70 psi at idle hot is too high... trust me. Hot being abotu 210 oil temp.

This is the oil pump I bought

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LPE&Product_Code=MEL10296&Category_Code=C54

I dont see how too much oil flow or pressure(unless its REALLY high) is a bad thing.


What else would could cause the hight pressure if it is indeed too high?

Oil senders are iin the same location s before, in the oil filter block. Possible obstruction in the oil cooler?

This is the oil pump I bought

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LPE&Product_Code=MEL10296&Category_Code=C54

I dont see how too much oil flow or pressure(unless its REALLY high) is a bad thing.


What else would could cause the hight pressure if it is indeed too high?

Oil senders are iin the same location s before, in the oil filter block. Possible obstruction in the oil cooler?
You bought a Melling high volume pump throgh LPE... good pump. Very similar to the LS4 GM pump I have in my car. So.... your pressures are still way high.

The relief valve in the pump could be stuck creating excess oil pressure.

You bought a Melling high volume pump throgh LPE... good pump. Very similar to the LS4 GM pump I have in my car. So.... your pressures are still way high.

The relief valve in the pump could be stuck creating excess oil pressure.

This a thread from Ls1 tech, mine sounds about the same

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1151472-too-much-oil-pressure.html

I'm pretty sure the melling uses a 42lb relief spring vs. the stock 32. The LS4 pump I have (the original version) has a 48lb relief spring. Seeing over 60psi at hot idle is higher than normal.

Even running a high volume pump and 20w50 oil it should be in the 50s, 60 max. Not 70 like you're seeing.

Did you notice a pressure drop when the noise started? What oil pan are you using? Some of these high volume pumps rand the oil pan dry on standard f-body pans. Too much oil got caught up in the heads and couldn't drain back fast enough. Shouldn't be an issue w/ the C5 pan and an oil cooler installed (extra capacity).

This is the oil pump I bought

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LPE&Product_Code=MEL10296&Category_Code=C54

I dont see how too much oil flow or pressure(unless its REALLY high) is a bad thing.


What else would could cause the hight pressure if it is indeed too high?

Oil senders are iin the same location s before, in the oil filter block. Possible obstruction in the oil cooler?

Eric have you had a chance to start pulling the engine down and if so what have you found so far?

Regards oil pressure and what is "right", there are many many opinions on this. Oil pressure in race engines will vary widely due to differing bearing clearances (normally looser to promote flow and reduce bearing temps), oiling system differences and dry Vs wet sump configs (dry sump pressure is normally low at idle compared to wet sump but changes in a more linear fashion with rpm). I have generally adopted the old racers rule of thumb of seeking to have 10lbs of pressure for every 1000rpm at racing speeds. Anything above the 10lb rule (i.e. having 90lbs of pressure at 6000rpm Vs 60lbs) is wasting hp, putting additional temperature into the oil and aerating the oil. I do not get to worried about idle oil pressure unless it is glaringly low or high.

Trust that the major components in the engine come out OK and that no major rework is required.

Kel.

no, no drop in pressure, and keep in mind the car probably ran for 10 minutes total, off the trailer, on to the dyno, warmed up for a few minutes and did one pull.

the oil pan i have is the moroso, 7 qts plus the cooler and about 5ft of lines. I honestly think i had a rod bolt stretch when the car "free wheeled" for 20-30 seconds at high rpm(@ 5000rpms) this was when the throttle stuck open(not enough return spring apparently)

Eitheer that or a lifter collapsed. who knows. I will hopefully start pulling it apart later this week when i finally get some free time.

A failed lifter would be an easy fix assuming it didn't destroy too much else. If that's the case put a good cam in it.

As for oil pressures... I'm just going off my experience w/ these cars for 10 years and 10 years as an active member on the Corvetteforum. Kel is 100% right about how pressures vary. But, with a stock shortblock, high volume oil pump, and wet sump system your pressure is a bit high from the norm accross the LSX family.

The LS7 does run lower pressures at idle, but of course that's because it's a semi-dry sump.

Your motor came out of a 2004 right? Anything 2001 and up has very good rod bolts. Stretching one is pretty much unheard of. I run my car to 7k often w/o issues.

Let us know what you find when you get into it... www.ls1howto.com (http://www.ls1howto.com) is a great site for doing heads/cam stuff on LSXs.

So, I finally dropped the oil pan, don't really know what to think!

The oil was BLACK BLACK BLACK, except for the streaks of new oil i put in.

Good news and bad......

Bad news is it looks like i trashed a bearing in #5


Good news is the damage appears to be mainly isolated to the #5 cylinder bearing, so SLIGHT scuffing on the crank, and a little heat mark on the rod cap...

WARNING large HI-RES photo below
http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=107045&g2_serialNumber=1


there was a decent amount of metal and crud in the oil. I am still scratching my head as to what happened, going to measure the rod bolts to see if they streteched


So, what now? Should I do a FULL rebuild, or just replace the bearings? How the heck to i get all the metal shavings out of the engine, and most importantly, WTF caused this in the first place?

Some more pics....

here is the slight scuffing of the crank.... it looks like it can be pretty easily polished off, i could almost rub it off with my finger and there are no grooves where my finger could dig in...


http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=107068&g2_serialNumber=2

The other bearings all looks great...

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=107062&g2_serialNumber=2

No clue how #5 could have been the only issue... you post on LS1tech.com yet? I'd slap some new bearings in there and see if it runs. If it doesn't... well then re-build it all.

Eric, possible causes for the bearing to 'pick up' and get damaged like this are;

- Engine has been run for a short period with no oil in it or has had a momentary period of oil starvation (may have happened prior to you getting the engine or could possibly even have happened when the oil hose burst during install),
- Pick up in new sump is to close to the bottom of the sump (min of 3/8" standoff clearance required) and has caused pump to cavitate and draw in air at higher rpm,
- There is a gasket leak in oiling system allowing air into the system.

These are just some possible causes.

Regards what to do Eric, from similar previous experiences I would recommend the following (based on race engine practice) but note that I am not aware of LS repair costs in the States so you need to factor in economics of rebuild Vs sourcing another shortblock etc;

- Strip engine,
- Have damaged crank throws polished and measured to determine if you can get away with not regrinding the crank,
- Regrind crank if required,
- Replace rod bolts and resize rods,
- Fit new main and rod bearings,
- Strip and check oil pump, replace if damaged,
- Pull oil gallery plugs from block and have it thoroughly washed out,
- Flush entire oil system (reverse flush) carefully especially the oil cooler.

You may get away with doing less Eric but then again by cutting a corner you could have a similar issue re-occur.

Kel.

This was a used engine, right? How confident are you in The history of it?

I am sorry to hear your problems with the engine. Kel is correct strip it down and do it correct the first time every time I have tried the easy fix it has bit me in the butt and cost more dollars down the line. Be sure and send the cooler out to be cleaned I did not the last time and It bit me too. Best

rebuild!!! dont risk and explosion...

Any thoughts on the best way to reverse flush the oil cooler?

btw, THIS SUCKS

send it out have it ultasonic cleaned then you are safe. Trust me on this one been there done that and got bit bad.

Eric, I am just now responding to your plight as I haven't been on the forum in several weeks now. If misery loves company I have been sinking time and big $'s into my newly acquired GTS car. My problems don't come anywhere near yours though. I'm really sorry , we were all really rooting for you on this new engine.

Eric, possible causes for the bearing to 'pick up' and get damaged like this are;

- Engine has been run for a short period with no oil in it or has had a momentary period of oil starvation (may have happened prior to you getting the engine or could possibly even have happened when the oil hose burst during install),
- Pick up in new sump is to close to the bottom of the sump (min of 3/8" standoff clearance required) and has caused pump to cavitate and draw in air at higher rpm,
- There is a gasket leak in oiling system allowing air into the system.

These are just some possible causes.

Regards what to do Eric, from similar previous experiences I would recommend the following (based on race engine practice) but note that I am not aware of LS repair costs in the States so you need to factor in economics of rebuild Vs sourcing another shortblock etc;

- Strip engine,
- Have damaged crank throws polished and measured to determine if you can get away with not regrinding the crank,
- Regrind crank if required,
- Replace rod bolts and resize rods,
- Fit new main and rod bearings,
- Strip and check oil pump, replace if damaged,
- Pull oil gallery plugs from block and have it thoroughly washed out,
- Flush entire oil system (reverse flush) carefully especially the oil cooler.

You may get away with doing less Eric but then again by cutting a corner you could have a similar issue re-occur.

Kel.

Honestly, I think it's the pickup in the pan - not fully starved the engine of oil, but enough to cause issues.

i think it may have been caused by the oil lines being crossed or some blockage in the oil system, when i pulled the oil lines, at least one of the lines i pulled had what looked like brand new clean oil in it as well as the oil in the oil pump pickup tube, all looked clean. I think the only thing that saved the rest o f the motor was the fact i replaced the oil filter twice while on the dyno and kept adding a quart or two of oil to make up for the oil in the filter.....


So could the oil lines being reversed caused this? i wasnt aware there was a check valve in that oil filter block

I havent traced back through the system to check Eric, but yes I suspect that this could cause such a problem. I have heard of this occuring before (one local racer trashed 2 engines prior to identifying and rectifying).

Some oil filters also have an antidrain back system (to prevent momentary oil starvation on start up) which could also possibly cause starvation if set up in a reverse flow situation.

Kel.

Look at the business end of your oil filter. The ring of holes around the outside has a rubber flapper valve behind them. Hooking it up backwards could cause high oil pressure and starve the bearings.

yup, so after all my anal planning, i screwed up a perfectly good motor by swapping the oil lines, GREAT! just my luck!

I ran a new tranny and forgot oil...Live and learn! Sorry brother. At least it didnt explode!

I ran a new tranny and forgot oil...Live and learn! Sorry brother. At least it didnt explode!

ouch - i bet that was an ugly sound.

it actually ran about 3-5 laps before giving up....suprisingly not that noisy or I wasnt listening? When I pulled the drain plug it smelled like a camp fire and metal "sand" poured out....toasted....I am sure the tranny guys mad fun of me!

Well shitfucks... at least you know what it was/is.

Well shitfucks... at least you know what it was/is.

Well the good news is I have a forged bottom end on t he way. the old motor is easily salvageable and will be rebuilt and either sold or kept as a spare. Unfortunate but not HORRIBLE.

Thanks for the advice and help guys.

Well the good news is I have a forged bottom end on t he way. the old motor is easily salvageable and will be rebuilt and either sold or kept as a spare. Unfortunate but not HORRIBLE.

Thanks for the advice and help guys.


Nice one Eric. Did you go for a stroked version or std capacity?

Nice one Eric. Did you go for a stroked version or std capacity?

just a standard bore standard stroke, with a mild cam it's already going to be more power than i need (over 400whp) so there was no need for a stroker motor

Soooooooooo, YUP oil lines were crossed! DOH!

I pulled the old motor apart today it actually looks REALLY good, I took a little 1400 grit wet/dry paper and all the bearing deposits came off and the crank looks good as new!!

So..... I Sold the short block to a buddy of mine who just blew his 98 Camaro SS motor! :-D

New Forged Short block from, Texas Speed on the way!

Good detective work. How long would you estimate before you are back out running?

I am hoping just a another week or so before I can get it back to the dyno, awaiting for all the parts to show up! ANDDDD, at the same time trying to help Devin get HIS swap done..

I am hoping just a another week or so before I can get it back to the dyno, awaiting for all the parts to show up! ANDDDD, at the same time trying to help Devin get HIS swap done..

:sarcasm1:

what do you mean trying? I could not even get you to weld today. :eek:

So, motor is running and headed back to the dyno tommorow!! Cross your fingers!!!!