Mysterious Ignition Problem

I have a 1997 2.4L pontiac grand am gt. On some days when I go to start it, it will start right up for about a second then die, and to get it to start up again i will have to turn the car ignition key all the way off then back. Today it just wouldn't start, it started for the second as it typically would, this time I tried turning the key back then forward again (wihout cranking the starter) all before the engine stopped turning over, and when I did that the car came to life again for another second then died.

WHAT COULD MY PROBLEM BE?

THANKS SO MUCH FOR ANY HELP

Does the security light come on when you turn the key? If the light is on make sure the key is an OEM key. Then set the parking brake and turn the key on for 10 minutes, turn it off for 30 seconds. Repeat and on the third try start the car. If the car doesn't start you could have a fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator issue. Try to reset the security system. If that doesn't work then we will try something else.

well, when i got home, i tried starting it... and it started right up...

so now what?

and what does the security light say?

If the security light comes on the system has recognized a possible theft of the vehicle using an unauthorized key. If this happens it will disable the ignition and cause the car to stall. Often you need to reset the system before the car will start. The system can reset itself after a period of time although this is rare. Keep an eye on the light and if it comes on while driving the security system may be the entire problem.

also if the recall for the ignition switch has not been done yet on your car, you might want to check your ignition switch since it could be melting slowly and causing no start sometimes.

If i give the car some throttle no it starts right up, but if i dont give it throttle on start up, I get the same problem as previously stated

check the air filter

would that also make it to where i need to turn the ignition off then back on to get it to even fire again?

You said that when you open the throttle a little it starts. Clear logic would be not enough air entering the engine. You can also try cleaning the throttle body especially plate it could be very dirty, and also clean IAC valve and its passages. Any codes?

is there any place i can go to get the codes quick and cheap? I'm mechanically inclined but i've never worked on cars much before, just motorcycles and everything else

also, how easy is it to clean the throttle body plate?

do you have check engine light on? if no then you do not have any codes. When you start the car do you see check engine light iluminated for 2-3 seconds? if yes then your bulb for check engine light is OK. and if it is not illuminated constantly you do not have any codes. In the case you have check engine light on, you can go to your closest Auto Zone they will check it for you free. Write the code that they give to you and come back here with the code and someone will help you.

Throttle Body can be cleaned with throttle body cleaner spray (you can get it anywhere: Walmart, Auto zone, Pep Boys etc)

remove that big air duct that goes from your air filter box to the engine and you will see throttle body most likely it is full of carbon mixed with oil and dust. Sometimes you will find nests,from smaller animals and birds if the car was not driven for a longer period. Use some soft cloth to wipe out dirt trying to make it as shiny as possible from both sides of the plate.

yea, the check engine light is on... i figure at 160,000 miles thats pretty normal and not much to worry about, but as soon as i get the car started i will take it to autozone and have them find out the codes for me

i'm doing some research and looking at how ignition systems work... could it be my distributer? if so, are they an expensive part?..... also, could my catalytic converter be clogged causing this?

you may want to update your study materials as most cars have not had distributors for about twenty years. I'd check for spark and fuel pressure next time it does not start. ALso pull vacuume line off the Fuel pressur Reglator and see if any gas dribbles out. If so the regulator is on the fritz.

Does the starter turn over every time you try to start the car?

As GTP Dad suggested, it may be an issue with the Passlock system. Typically with Passlock, it will kill the engine shortly after you start it, and the security light will begin to flash in the instrument cluster. The only way to fix it is to replace the ignition switch, or bypass the Passlock system entirely. If the security light isn't flashing, then it could be any number of things. The ignition switch may still be at fault, but you'd have to test the wires at the ignition harness to see if they're losing power at all. Beyond that I'm just guessing, but it could be the fuel pump, fuel filter or maybe even the coil just to start...

I got the Codes

P0141

and

P0335

Ok. no wonder you can not start, P0335 is related to the CKP crankshaft position sensor. p0141 you will most likely have to replace your O2 sensor by the catalytic converter.

give me minute to find a picture so I can pinpoint for you what connectors to check.

I don't have a picture of your engine handy, but if you look from the top of the engine between the engine and radiator you should see connector that has only two wires yellow and purple, look above your oil filter and just look for yellow and purple wires inspect the wires from end to end making sure that wires are not melted or damaged then disconnect connectors from both sides and look for damaged pins inside of the connector. Wiggle connector while someone is trying to start. Watch for moving engine parts.

so wat do u think is wrong with the CKP?

as I said it could damaged ckp wires, pins inside of connector, or sensor itself. If you have DVOM set it to read AC mV disconnect ckp connector connect DVOM leads to ckp connector and have someone crank the engine several turns while you are observing voltage. If sensor is good it should produce close to 200 mV. If you don't see voltage look for damaged wires if all are good replace sensor.

where on the engine will i find the CKP?

look above the oil filter, you will find it easier if you look for yellow and purple wires that are going somewhere together and they should be twisted.

well I replaced both the heated oxygen sensor and the CKP sensor...... the guy at autozone allowed me to erase those problem from the system... now my engine check light is off and i drove home a couple miles.... my question now is, if those problems had not have been fixed or if they arise again my engine check light will come on correct?

correct, It should be fine now. So how is it starting now? any problems?

ummm, we'll see when morning comes around when it's nice and cool out, cause thats when i typically had the problems

well the car wouldn't start this morning... doing the same as it always has....

as usual, it fires up for about a second then dies, then when i go to start it again there is no fire, and i have to turn the ignition key off then back on, to get it to fire again, it seems to get worse the colder it is outside, its never done it while the car is warm or after its been driven recently

help please...

try this when it cools down, turn the key to the on position (do not crank) just wait for the fuel pump to finish working, then repeat this 3 times so that your fuel system is primed with fuel. Then try to start. Did you try cleaning throttle body and iac valve? Also see in what condition is air filter.

i cleaned the throttle body. where is the iac valve? .. and the airfilter was in good conditon

it is on the throttle body it has 4 wires going to it. 1. Light green with white, 2. green with black, 3.blue with black and 4.light blue with white

it has two screws star shape.


also clean all grounds under the hood, make sure connector at the icm has firm connection, check the same with pcm connectors.

you never said if the "theft system" telltale is flashing on the instrument panel for 4 seconds. This is how your theft system works: When starting the engine the pcm looks for a password from the instrument panel cluster through the uart serial data circuit. If the password is not recognized or not present the pcm will disable the engine. There are two modes of tamper detection. Short tamper mode: engine may start and stall quickly. Theft system telltale will flash on the ipc for 4 seconds. Long tamper mode - more than three starting attempts or an invalid password is received. The engine is disabled for at least 10 minutes and the theft system telltale will flash on the ipc for 10 minutes . But this should set the code p1629 unless the autozone scanner was not able to read this code. If nothing works after you clean iac, remove the plastic covers around the steering wheel you will find small connector with black and yellow wires. Disconnect that while engine is working then remove the key and start again leave it disconnected since new cylinder is very expensive part and with 160000 miles I am sure you do not want to invest big money in it. If it works good if not then go to radio shack GM uses 5 resistors for this system some are from 1 to 5 ohms. Buy 2 ohms resistor and while engine is running plug that 2 ohm resistor into the disconnected connector with yellow and black wires. Turn off then start, repeat starting engine and turning it off 3 times. This should make PCM and IPC to relearn this new 2 ohm resistor. But first try disconnecting that connector while engine is running. It worked on mine when I tested it however theft system will be on continuously but you don't care at 160 000 miles you will be able to start every time if that was the problem.

ok, i'll give that a shot when i get home, but there is no real clear answer as to what my problem is?

the security doesnt flash, i just lights up when i turn the key over like all the other lights, then it turns off

Has anyone mentioned a crank relearn? once you have a crank position sensor replaced, or removed, it has to be remapped in the computer. I think it requires a Tech II.

It's still not starting in the mornings, its strictly relatied to cold weather, it just doesnt stay running in the cooler temps, it initally fires right up, but dies right back down, in the cooler temps

make sure you have enough coolant, for ect sensor to function properly. If your engine is cold now try this it will take you 10 seconds only - try disconnecting your ect sensor (location on the thermostat housing pipe) you will find connector with two wires (should be brown and yellow wires) disconnect it and try to start. Let me know what happened.

what about the air temperature sensor?

I couldnt find the ect sensor, where exactly is it?.... i did disconnected the sensor on the air intake boot, took the hose off the filter housing and turned a hair dryer in the boot for a moment, the car got goin then, but i dont know if it was because of the blow dryer or the sensor now, lol..... it was also borderline warm this morning

ect is on the thermostat housing,

P0335 is a faulty CKP circuit malfunction
And a bad CKP, if its new, it needs the relearn proceedure. :dunno:

P0141 O2 sensor circuit no activity down stream
Could be a bad connection, broke wires

little correction XI p0141 is for CAT 02, you got it confused with p0441 which is for EVAP

little correction XI p0141 is for CAT 02, you got it confused with p0441 which is for EVAP

Sorry about that, you are correct 3100 ! lol