g20 vs a4 thread

on edmunds.com there is a "lively" g20 vs a4 debate. the audiphiles have been continously ragging on the g20.

you have to register but it's painless and i've never received junk mail from edmunds.

here is the link

http://townhall.edmunds.com/cgi-bin/townhall

click on
sedans
comparisons - sedans vs sedans

I dunno if I'd bother getting into that debate. The A4 is definately more of a car than a G20.

Accept it.

I think the G20 would win in any contest of speed HAHAHAHAH:D :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek:

I do not know how actual these are, but I am not impressed at all. I got this from http://www.car-stats.com/

1997 A4 Quattro 1.8T
0-60: 8.3 1/4: 16.3
1998 A4 Quattro Avant 1.8T
0-60: 7.4 1/4: 15.9
1999 A4 Quattro 1.8T
0-60: 8.4 1/4: 16.2
2001 A4 Quattro Avant 1.8T
0-60: 8.5 1/4: 16.3

That isn't much better than a P10 G20 doing 0-60: 8.3 1/4: 16.3

Originally posted by b-b00gie
I dunno if I'd bother getting into that debate. The A4 is definately more of a car than a G20.

Accept it.

Oh I don't know about that. Der Uberwagen is way over rated. Nice car, yes. Great car? Some have that perception, but I don't think so. It's not because I own a G20 either. I'll bet the G20 will easily outrun der Uberwagen on a road course.

Also, I've personally known two Audi mechanics who both think Audis are pieces of shit.

I tell y'all what......

There is a former turbo SE-R owner (featured in SCC) that sold it and bought an A4 and promptly declared it would beat an SE-R in any contest of speed. He got his lunch eaten by bone stock classic SE-Rs by 4+ seconds per lap.

So, you SoCal guys should go to some of the track events there. You can find out for yourself. :)

Originally posted by NismoPC
I do not know how actual these are, but I am not impressed at all. I got this from http://www.car-stats.com/

That isn't much better than a P10 G20 doing 0-60: 8.3 1/4: 16.3

Where did you get that time for the G20? The quickest I saw was a 16.5... And personally i think a stock G20 could hit a 15.9 given good conditions (T model may make it easier too, because of the better tranny). As for the A4, i don't know how slow, or optimistic those times are?

See the problem is, they're pissed because the paid more for a car that isn't as good.

Originally posted by FlossinPrimera
See the problem is, they're pissed because the paid more for a car that isn't as good.

I don't know about that... I've ridden in a couple Audi's, and they are VERY nice. It's a different car. It's like comparing Lexus to Infiniti, or Acura, while they are all luxury cars, each one has a different "feel". What i'm really waiting to see (and dare I say excited) is a new 5-spd IS300 with a tad more oomph than the current US models. I'd really like to see TRD come out with a special edition, maybe even a 6-spd? :D

OK here we go...... (keep in mind I do own a G20 and am pretty satisfied with it)


First; who ever said that 0-60 and "laptimes" are what makes a car better? How did that even come up??? These comments are why I think some people are just totally ignorant.

Yes an SER could "lap" a Rolls Royce too, but I'd hardly say the car was better than it based on that fact alone.


Lets not forget something... Your "Infiniti G20" is nothing more than "Nissan commuter car in leather clothing". Some people start to think that since they own a G20 that they now own "luxury" because they own a car in the "Infiniti" lineup which was created for snobbish American materialistic eyes.

Audi, BMW and others have built reputations to get where they are today, unlike Japanese automakers who have decided to capitalize on "american values" and enter the "luxo" market based solely on the fact that they had the money to do so.


(No offense to my overseas friends who own "Nissan Primeras" with my follwing point)...

Please do not forget that "G20" owners are driving Nissan Primeras which have nothing more than leather seats added. If you were to go to any country where a Nissan Primera is sold (I have) you wouldnt think to compare the quality of the car to an Audi A4. Thats like the typical "ricer" here who thinks his Honda Civic is better than or comparable to a BMW. Please; think.

Just because you have an Infiniti symbol on your trunk and your car is close in cost (about $4,000) to an A4, does not put you in the same league. G20's are WAY over priced, I'd say by about $5000.

An A4, has stronger engines (170HP, 220HP), nicer styling (OK, thats my opinion), the quality of the interior is WAY better, available AWD, more user friendliness in the cockpit, far better materials, construction and attention to detail. FAR MORE aftermarket support.

These types of things are what makes a car better. This is why I say it is "more of a car".


Lets face the facts, we drive "fancy Civics" :D

all those facts yet you still went against the audi's and beemers and got yourself a g20?

The only reason the g20 has that "weak" engine was so that you don't have to pay a visit to the gas station every other day you know. I believe you get one of the best mileages per gallon with this engine. Also, there are so many aftermarket parts available for our engine. So if you want a fast g20, no ones stopping you but your wallet.

A question also to comment on... how much of your time do you spend on the tracks (that is if you even race) and how many times do you spend in your ordinary life driving around using the vehicle for what it was meant to be used for.

just my 2 cents

Originally posted by b-b00gie

Lets face the facts, we drive "fancy Civics" :D

I really like the quote in The Matrix... Ignorance is bliss! :D

No, but seriously, i have cloth seats, i don't really consider my car to be a luxury car by any mean, hell when most people ask, i tell them i drive a Nissan(cause when i say G20, they say huh.... G what???), but a Civic? (no offense to Civic owners). I could possibly see an accord though, maybe.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Lets face the facts, we drive "fancy Civics" :D

Um, no. We drive fancy Primeras, let me remind you the Primera is well established in the BTCC ranks, not to mention JTCC. I'm not saying the the Audi isn't established in the BTCC, I'm saying its not as good as the Primera. As for stronger engines, yes, but the car does weigh more. Interior refinement is all opinion, frankly, I think the interior of Audis are ugly. I've never been in a car that had as good Fit and Finish as a Nissan, save my great uncles RR. But then again, these are just opinions.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
First; who ever said that 0-60 and "laptimes" are what makes a car better? How did that even come up??? These comments are why I think some people are just totally ignorant.

Ignorant is an awfully strong term there. I want to say an awful lot more, but I'll hold my tongue. One flame war this week was enough.

Now, how did it come up? Well for one, I bought my car for a number of reasons, one of which is performance. I do occasionally drive my car on the track. To me, 0-60 and other measurements such as lap times are very important.

Ignorant? Bite me.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Yes an SER could "lap" a Rolls Royce too, but I'd hardly say the car was better than it based on that fact alone.

I guess it really depends upon why you choose your car. I choose my cars for performance and the overall package. I have no idea why you choose yours.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Lets not forget something... Your "Infiniti G20" is nothing more than "Nissan commuter car in leather clothing".

Communter car? Now who is truly ignorant? The Primera/G20 was designed as a sports sedan. It was Nissan's car of choice to contest the many touring car championships. I comes with a race bred engine and a wonderful suspension.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Some people start to think that since they own a G20 that they now own "luxury" because they own a car in the "Infiniti" lineup which was created for snobbish American materialistic eyes.

True enough. But not in my case, and probably not in the case of most people here.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Audi, BMW and others have built reputations to get where they are today, unlike Japanese automakers who have decided to capitalize on "american values" and enter the "luxo" market based solely on the fact that they had the money to do so.

You have a rather parochial view of the world. What you apparently don't know is that BMW and Audi and a few other makes have a reputation that has been blown out of proportion in the USA and those companies have taken advantage of the stupid Americans (all of North America).

In Europe, BMWs and Audis are available rather stripped. In fact, you can get them with less content than we get the G20 here. Except for the yuppie set who call BMWs beamers instead of bimmers like an real enthusiast does, BMW's reputation was built around??????? <drum roll please> PERFORMANCE! But I guess that's pretty ignorant. :D Anyway, the reason BMWs in this country are loaded with luxury crap so even the average college eductated professional can't even afford onee is because of all the turds who buy them because they're a beemer and everyone knows beemers are cool.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Please do not forget that "G20" owners are driving Nissan Primeras which have nothing more than leather seats added. If you were to go to any country where a Nissan Primera is sold (I have) you wouldnt think to compare the quality of the car to an Audi A4.

I think in Germany you would find there is no more difference there than here. The A4 Uberwagen would generally be less laden with luxo crap there and the Primera would be similarly equipped. I'm sure some of our European friends can vouch for this. Hell in Germany you can buy a BMW 3 series (without the USM luxo crap) for less than we pay for a G20 here.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Just because you have an Infiniti symbol on your trunk and your car is close in cost (about $4,000) to an A4, does not put you in the same league. G20's are WAY over priced, I'd say by about $5000.

I agree that the sticker price for the G20 is way over priced. IMHO the A4 is as well.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
An A4, has stronger engines (170HP, 220HP)

Sure, but it's a big ol' rolling turd as well. I needs the stronger engine just to keep up with a G20.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
nicer styling (OK, thats my opinion), the quality of the interior is WAY better

Also purely your opinion.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
far better materials, construction and attention to detail.

LOL. As I said, I personally know two Audi mechanics who think Audis are pieces of shit. One damned near refuses to work on them. He only does when he is forced to, otherwise he works on the other makes of cars at his dealership.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
FAR MORE aftermarket support.

I thought using performance as a comparison was ignorant?

These types of things are what makes a car better. This is why I say it is "more of a car".

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Lets face the facts, we drive "fancy Civics" :D

I don't make the car out to be any more than it is, but is sure as hell is no fancy Civic.

oh no...i think b00gie just started WW3 and he just came back to AF???

I dont think there is a need to start an all out war here though, it's all personal opinion. If i like apples and you like oranges, no matter how you try to convince me by telling me that there's more nutrients in the orange or how it just simply taste better, I probably will still stick to my apples.
But the A4 has FAR MORE aftermarket support??? NOPE! C'mon...we have SR motors!!!
Obviously we cant compare the A4 quattro to the FWD P11...but I definitely think the P11 compares very well with the FWD A4 1.8t. Performance wise, a stock P11 will be quicker than the A4 in a road course. Why? the SR is a higher reving motor (dont know about the redline in the A4, but the SR is certainly very responsive as the rpms climb up) and the P11 outhandles the FWD A4...that's pretty much a well known fact in many magazines and test results. Although in a drag the A4 will be faster....but come to think about it, a 5speed 92-95 Civic EX will probably out run or match the A4 in 0-60, I think the Civic does it in 8.2sec? A4s are 8.3? p11 does it in about 56sec?..hehe..i admit, it's slow :(
Styling, that's subjective so it doesnt count...although the A4 is one of my all time favorite cars, style-wise.
Built quality? All the German cars that's around me tells me that although German cars drives very very good, firm steering and gives you a sense of "wow, THIS is a car" yet there are tons of small problems...my parents 99 E320 with only 34k miles already had 1 leaking tranny, about 1million blown out brake lights, 3 blown instrument bulbs, broken remote trunk, powerseat doesnt operate the right way...all fixed under warranty but still...it's a $50k car.
on my GF's 96 325, she had the same blown tailight problem, bad AC compressor, bad power window, bad fog lights, and bad water pump. Maybe they just have bad luck but as much as i road race my G, i dont have any rattling or any other problems. The only problem that i had with my car is when i had my Bose headunit, sometimes, it wont reject the CD. Of course, we are taling about the A4 here and not others but i just want to put things in perspective that cars of higher class, doesnt alwasy reflect a better built quality.

the a4 does feel like a more substantial car but it doesnt handle like the g and it's only marginally quicker. But just like the g is a pretty nissan the audi is a pretty volkswagen and with that comes unreliability....you look in any credible auto publication and check out the long term test . Constant problems and there's a couple around here that i know of and they been to the dealer countless times.....for the money i think the g is just fine

<<<This is long but I don’t care, I’m not forcing you to read it.>>>
<<<Lots of people are wailing on the G20 and I am defending it for what it is.>>>

I don't understand why people try to compare two cars. I think your car is a personal choice based on what you can afford and what you want it to do. Some people want a new car that is fuel efficient and small. Personally I want performance, a good suspension, leather, and nice sound system. Since these views are way different what are we to judge on? Well in America usually it is the 0-60 time. Why? Who cares how fast you can get to the speed limit. Once you get there you are like everybody else. Unless the time is way slow it doesn’t matter. Top speed? Once again unless you are racing across the Nevada Salt flats it doesn’t matter. There is always traffic or curves in the road you have to slow down for. So we should base it on suspension and ability to corner. Well no. If you can corner but not speed up than that is no good either. But this is all performance stuff. What about the interior? Did you completely gut your civic except one Recaro and those fancy diamond plate floor mats? Or are you rolling in a car that has the finest leather and hand carved wood? I think that neither is wrong and it is totally personal choice. If there is to be a car competition there should be a balance among these things and also based on price. The Fast and Furious dumbest part of the movie goes to... Ferrari and Supra Race. I don’t care if the Supra wins or not I would take the Ferrari over a Supra any day. Performance is not everything.
G20 or the A4. Who chose to put the G20 against the A4 and not the S4?
Stock S4 vs. Stock G20… I would say the S4
Stock A4 vs. Stock G20…I would say the G20
Modified A4 vs. Modified G20…I would still say G20
Modified S4 vs. Modified G20…I would say S4
We could go on forever and ever with every car ever built and some that weren’t and it would be pointless. The A4 is a fine car but if I got and Audi it would be the S4. If I were to get and Infiniti I would get the G20. And Infiniti is way down on the list of brands I would buy but the first to have what I want at a price I can afford. I am a Volvo guy. Volvo is at the top of the list. For the last 3 years, I owned a Volvo, have all the catalogs for performance parts, bookmarks for everything Volvo on the net, and learned practically everything there is to know about them including trying to learn Swedish. If I had $40K I would either be first in line to order the S60R if it ever comes out or spend it all on customizing an older Volvo. But I don’t so I will do neither. I am a member of clubs and online forums and I still have not left them. I modified my Volvo and came up with things that no one had done before. One of the biggest things was I made an indiglo emblem for the front. I don't know anyone else in the world that did that. If you do email me at coling@spu.edu My car was called Turbobrick because the Volvo is known as the Swedish brick and mine had a turbo. I didn't come up with the name, it actually is a club for Volvos and I use the name in general for all turbo Volvos. People would see my car around town and later they would say ''hey we saw the brick the other day'' as if it was a Ferrari or something. Some people from school would be all laughing at me for having stickers and seat belt pads not knowing my Volvo had some power. Because they laughed at me I thought my car was okay but not great. I grew up in a rich neighborhood and so my $6K car was one of the cheapest cars at school. But this guy who was popular and I sort of knew but wasn’t close friends because I didn’t hang out with that crowd, told me I had the coolest Volvo in the entire town. I was surprised since there are $45K Volvos running around and my Volvo was cooler then them. Although I thought I would never get rid of it I decided to before it broke down again. I wanted to get a new more reliable car that was smaller since I would be moving to the city in the fall. Obviously my only choice for small Volvo was the S40 and it didn’t have stick so I had to look for something else. While as was out looking for a new car for my dad I stopped at a dealer and they immediately asked if I came to see the 850R they got. After test driving this old crappy Corvette my dad thought he wanted I came back to see about 8 or 9 salesman peeking in the windows of my car. They all had seen it many times but never up close. They all thought it was a cool car and wanted to find a car for me so I could trade it in and they could have it.
Before Volvo I was into Acuras. My family has had a couple Integras and I thought that was what I wanted. But the one I wanted was too much so I started looking for something similar. I drove a bunch of cars that I thought I would like but didn’t feel comfortable in. I looked into the G20 and when I found out that it was the same as the Primera that ran in the BTCC I started looking into it more. I didn't choose the G20 because I wanted to show of the Infiniti emblem like some people try to show off. I fact I am removing it and putting a Nissan emblem on it. I came up with a list of modifications and tried to picture it in my head. All I had to do was drive it. When I drove it I knew it was the car for me. The one I got doesn’t have leather, a good stereo, or a powerful engine. It was perfect though and I am happy with what I got. I want to do body kit, JDM everything, leather, system, and performance stuff like CAI and exhaust. After I do a few things I hope people will feel the same way about my new car as they did about my old car. I will know it when I here people that I don’t even know say "Oh look there goes that cool Primera’’

Long story short…You don’t have to have the most expensive or fastest car to be happy.

Originally posted by G22DET
I don't think there is a need to start an all out war here

Good idea, I stated my opinion and didn't try to go after people except I question something you said. It could just be my ignorance though so don't take it personal.

Originally posted by G22DET
A4 has FAR MORE aftermarket support??? NOPE! C'mon...we have SR motors!!!

Where can I buy a bolt on supercharger to up the output to 300hp? They have them for VW/Audi. Or turbo or nitrous or what ever you want. Swap a 2.0l 90hp I-4 for a 2.7l 300hp V6 is the most normal thing you can do to a VW.

Now I'm not being sarcastic, but where is the SR engine aftermarket?
With out doing a engine swap what can I do to my G20? From driving different cars that are weighing differnent amounts I feel that I would be happy with about 230-250HP for my car that weighs 2900

How would I start modifying?

Also what is the differences between the pre 93 and 93.5 and after engine?

Originally posted by G22DET
oh no...i think b00gie just started WW3 and he just came back to AF???

I dont think there is a need to start an all out war here though, it's all personal opinion.

I have no problem with personal opinion, but dammit, don't call me ignorant (I brought up the lap times). That is what I take issue with. If it wasn't for that I probably wouldn't have even touched it.

Originally posted by TRBOBRK
Where can I buy a bolt on supercharger to up the output to 300hp? They have them for VW/Audi. Or turbo or nitrous or what ever you want. Swap a 2.0l 90hp I-4 for a 2.7l 300hp V6 is the most normal thing you can do to a VW.

Well, you can't buy a supercharger for the SR20 (superchargers suck compared to turbos anyway). But, you can buy a a couple of different turbo kits. As for engine swaps, it doesn't get any easier than the SR20DET.

Originally posted by TRBOBRK
Now I'm not being sarcastic, but where is the SR engine aftermarket?


Alive and quite well if you know just a bit of where to look. We don't have as broad a range of offerings as for VWs or Honduhs, but almost all of what we do have is very high quality and the price is reasonable.

As I mentioned there are two turbo kits and an engine swap that even the brain dead can do. There are several companies producing cams for the SR20, however the two real considerations are JWT and JUN (and possibly Piper, but I'm not familiar with test results for them). JWT offers cams that will net you around 16 hp with only the cam change. They offer cams that will net you close to 30 hp with a valve spring and retainer change (required due to the valvetrain harmonics and the more aggressive cam profile). There's several headers available, but most people choose the Hotshot because it makes the most power and is high quality. There are all sorts of goodies available to build a killer engine (see my website, specifically the Beast articles for some info on that). In sort, there is an excellent aftermarket for the SR20. There just are not as many companies offering parts, but the ones out there are generally not crap, unlike the situation with many cars.

Originally posted by TRBOBRK
With out doing a engine swap what can I do to my G20? From driving different cars that are weighing differnent amounts I feel that I would be happy with about 230-250HP for my car that weighs 2900

How would I start modifying?

Oh my. How about 400 hp to the wheels with off-the-shelf bolt-on parts? This is repeatable and is not a one-off shop special. The F-Max turbo kit has been used by many to produce anywhere from 250-400 whp. People all over the country have used this kit, installing it themselves in their own garage. You don't have to go to a specialist to get it done. BTW, this is with stock internal engines with the USM 9.5:1 CR engine! No internal mods what so ever. Hotshot makes a kit that will get you about 250-300 hp to the wheels on a stock internal engine.

If you are interest in these or other performance upgrades for the SR20, I or others here can send you to the right places - places with good folks who won't rip you off.

Originally posted by TRBOBRK
Also what is the differences between the pre 93 and 93.5 and after engine?

The 91-93.5 engine has the high port head. The 93.5 engine does without the AIV valve on the front of the engine. The 94 and later engine has the low port head and later versions have more emissions crap added to it. This was discussed in greater detail in another thread that I cannot remember the name of at the moment.

Geo, sorry. I did not mean to affend you personally. I didnt even take notice as to who started the 0-60 thing.


I was just trying to make a point that 0-60 times are not what its all about. And should not be the "default" measure of superiority.

Its like judging a book by its cover, or a man by his shoe size! :D


In my opinion (take it or leave it (as I tried to point out earlier)) what "makes" a car is the quality, design, materials, performance, aftermarket support ALL put together, not one.


I saw a bunch of people jumping on the speed comparison. A bunch of people who months ago where saying that speed wasnt all that when someone came here and posted how an M3 is a better car. Why all of a sudden a switch in opinion?


I still think the A4 is superior in many ways.
I am happy with my G20, I dont regret buying it.
I am purchasing a new car in a year or less.
An A4 is on my list of options.

:)

Well I might as well join in this war and add a European's view...

The Audi A4 is considered an executive or possibly entry level luxury car over here. The Primera is considered a family saloon and a rep-mobile. Audi is up there with BMW and Mercades, whereas the Primera is viewed in the same way as Ford, Vauxhall (GM), Citroen and Peugeot.

The Audi A4 range is fairly varied - there are fairly low spec entry level cars (1.6 and 1.8), luxury models (usually 2.0, 1.8T or TDi), and sport models (quattro'd 1.8T, V6, and TDi V6).

Most of the "sporty" Audi A4's would give my Primera a good spanking in a straight line, and having never driven one, I can't say how it would fair on a track. I should think that the Primera and a FWD Audi A4 would be a close call, but a Quattro would blow it away.

The Primera and Audi A4 are in two totally diffferent "classes" over here though, and thus, two totally different price ranges. The Audi A4 is around 40% more expensive than a Primera.

In the UK, I'd say that the Audi has far better aftermarket support - support for the Primera is absolutely terrible over here. In particular, there is alot of support for the 1.8T engine.

There was someone that was saying about the Primera's dominance in BTCC - if you remember, when Audi entered their A4 quattro, it beat everything and it was deemed an unfair advantage.

Originally posted by Anthony
Well I might as well join in this war and add a European's view...

The Audi A4 is considered an executive or possibly entry level luxury car over here. The Primera is considered a family saloon and a rep-mobile. Audi is up there with BMW and Mercades, whereas the Primera is viewed in the same way as Ford, Vauxhall (GM), Citroen and Peugeot.

The Audi A4 range is fairly varied - there are fairly low spec entry level cars (1.6 and 1.8), luxury models (usually 2.0, 1.8T or TDi), and sport models (quattro'd 1.8T, V6, and TDi V6).

Most of the "sporty" Audi A4's would give my Primera a good spanking in a straight line, and having never driven one, I can't say how it would fair on a track. I should think that the Primera and a FWD Audi A4 would be a close call, but a Quattro would blow it away.

The Primera and Audi A4 are in two totally diffferent "classes" over here though, and thus, two totally different price ranges. The Audi A4 is around 40% more expensive than a Primera.

In the UK, I'd say that the Audi has far better aftermarket support - support for the Primera is absolutely terrible over here. In particular, there is alot of support for the 1.8T engine.

There was someone that was saying about the Primera's dominance in BTCC - if you remember, when Audi entered their A4 quattro, it beat everything and it was deemed an unfair advantage.

Thank you.

You helped support many of my earlier points.


:)

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Geo, sorry. I did not mean to affend you personally. I didnt even take notice as to who started the 0-60 thing.

All's good Boogie. No sweat.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
I was just trying to make a point that 0-60 times are not what its all about. And should not be the "default" measure of superiority.

Oh, I most definitely agree with you there. Performance measurements are not the end-all. My real point was that they are not unimportant either.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
In my opinion (take it or leave it (as I tried to point out earlier)) what "makes" a car is the quality, design, materials, performance, aftermarket support ALL put together, not one.

Boy, no question. Some cars are more than the sum of their parts and others you wonder how a company could use such good parts and still produce a piece of crap.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
I saw a bunch of people jumping on the speed comparison. A bunch of people who months ago where saying that speed wasnt all that when someone came here and posted how an M3 is a better car. Why all of a sudden a switch in opinion?

Yeah, I agree, that is not right. One should be consistent in forming an opinion. If the payment wouldn't just annoy the hell out of me, I'd buy an M3 without question. Hell, I'd even buy a new 330.

Thank you guys for toning it down, you could hear the yelling in the other forums. Keep up the debate since that is what should be happening. And just for the record, Audi!!:D:D

Originally posted by b-b00gie
I saw a bunch of people jumping on the speed comparison. A bunch of people who months ago where saying that speed wasnt all that when someone came here and posted how an M3 is a better car. Why all of a sudden a switch in opinion?

Originally posted by P10DET
Yeah, I agree, that is not right. One should be consistent in forming an opinion. If the payment wouldn't just annoy the hell out of me, I'd buy an M3 without question. Hell, I'd even buy a new 330.

I will admit that I was the one who brought up the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times of the A4-vs-G20.

BUT, my opinion has always been about straight line performance and just recently within the last 3-4 years about overall driving performance (road course, cornering, g's, 0-60, 1/4 mile, slalom, etc). So, just for the records, I did not change my position/opinion in regards to speed at all. I just have a larger perspective to what overall performance is and not just straight line performance.

Originally posted by JustinP10 Where did you get that time for the G20? The quickest I saw was a 16.5... [/B]

That was an error. My error. I actually got those times from Car&Driver and Motor Trend (www.G20.net). The actual times they posted where 0-60 @ 8.3 and 1/4 mile @ 16.5 :bloated:

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Lets not forget something... Your "Infiniti G20" is nothing more than "Nissan commuter car in leather clothing". Some people start to think that since they own a G20 that they now own "luxury" because they own a car in the "Infiniti" lineup which was created for snobbish American materialistic eyes.

And when I sold my '91 NX2000 to purchase my 1996 G20 back in March of this year, it wasn't because it was a Infiniti. It was because it was a rebadged Nissan with an SR20DE that has great all-around performance potential, good gas mileage not great, with a nice list of luxo options, 4-doors and a place to put a baby seat in. Oh, I liked the style of the body and I have since it first debuted back in 1990 as a 1991 model.

Hell, I wished they brought it over here as a Primera back then. Would have been a hell of a lot cheaper when new. But they needed to add a entry level car into the Infiniti lineup for the American consumer since they only had a Q45 and M30 in 1990. It just happened to be the Primera rebadged. Oh well.

duuuuude...how can anyone say that there's no aftermarket support for the SR???? c'mon, it's probably the most popular engine to modify, even more so than the B-series Honduhs. I am not just talking about the US market cuz we are flooded with Honduhs....take a look around of all the japanese tuners and almost everyone has something for the SR.

BTW boogie..i like the current A4 as well...but have you seen the new one that's gonna be out? i dotnknow if i like that one, although the back looks aight.

Personally, I don't give a hoot about performance and power. My main concern is reliability and ownership costs. OK, so the G20 is "slower" than the A4/S4. With all the aftermarket addons out there, that can be fixed. I'm willing to bet that a G20 can handle better that a A4/S4.
And a G20 is just a fancy Sentra? Isn't that exactly what the Audi is to the Volkswagen? Now comes the good part: which is more reliable and cheaper to own? If perfomance alone is an issue, then you can opt for those German marques which can be pretty pricey. But if you want performance and practicality, a G20 with mods really is a better bargain.
Your car can't perform if you can't keep it out the shop. Let's not get into a heated debate over which is better. It's all a matter of taste(and money).

:cool: :cool:

Originally posted by howard_w13
OK, so the G20 is "slower" than the A4/S4. With all the aftermarket addons out there, that can be fixed.

And a G20 is just a fancy Sentra? Isn't that exactly what the Audi is to the Volkswagen

Two things... that could go boh ways. you could also mod the a4/s4 to be faster/handle better, etc... But if i'm not mistaken isn't the S4 way more expensive than an A4 or G20? I thought that was up closer to M3 territory as far as pricing?

And there are difference between the Sentras G20's (different platform all together) and Audi and Volkswagon are also quite a bit different as well. While drivetrains may be the shared... IMO it's in many cases the little stuff that adds up to make or break the car. If our cars had crappy interiors that fell apart, or seats that would tear, wear out, whatever, the car wouldn't be the deal it is, or if it had poor looking interior parts that didn't line up, or just looked cheap it'd also ruin the car. Same for the audi VW stuff. Personally I think the newer VW's are very nice, my mom has a relatively new Jetta, and it's really nice, while the audi may be nicer, i wouldn't take anything away from Vw at the same time. I'm sure a pretty fair comparison could be made between the interior of a Jetta or Passat and the G20. Ok, that's probably enough from me on this thread. I'll leave you guys with some words I'll never forget when i hear about an Audi... Any contest of speed... hahahah :D

I'd hardly say the SR is the most tuned engine and has a huge aftermarket. It is large, but I wouldnt say huge. Also most companies that offer SR parts manufacture them mainly for Silvias and SE-R's.

I guess the problem is: there is little aftermarket for the G20.

I bought my 2000 G20 in 99... Until January of 2001 there wasnt even an intake out for it. There still is no cams. No ECU. No "plug and play" turbo kit. Still issues with headers. Only one cat-back offering (6/01 debut). Maybe its just the G20 market that is small.

If you look at other cars, these types of things are available a lot sooner. And not just from one manufacturer.


Anyhow I'll drop this whole performance thing, but just as Justin said: you may say you can modify your G20 to surpass an A4 per say, but dont forget that you can also modify that A4 also. A simple ECU upgrade ($650) will add 45 wheel HP to a 1.8T, adding 45 wheel (ahem real) HP to an SR20DE is much more expensive. Cams, header, cat back, CAI, underdrive pullies will probably give you an added 30 whp (if they have all these parts available for your model year) and will cost you close to $2000.

Want turbo? shell out even more money ($3000+) and even then you will still only be at 200 whp. The 1.8T is 170 HP (150 whp) stock and after the ECU upgrade you are at 195 whp (cost $650) To own a 195 whp G20 you need about $4000 in upgrades. :(

Just by upgrading the 1.8T from its stock K03 to a K04 combined with that ECU upgrade and you are now at 240 whp for far less money than you spent turbo'ing the SR.


I know some people dont want to hear me. But I do have lots of "VW/Audi" enthusiasts as friends, so I do know a thing (or MANY :D) about their cars.

I like cars in general, not just the one I own, so I try to stay pretty open minded. :)


Anyhow....... I think I'm done rambling.

Luke, yes I like the new A4. It looks pretty hot with the Oettinger kit. www.oettinger.com if anyone is interested. Its the 2002 Audi A4 chassis model '8E'

I had the chance to buy a Audi A4 when I was looking to get a new car. I didn't like the interior for starters. Secondly, in Canada the price difference ends up being WAY more than the difference in the US (after currency exchange that is). That was even for the front wheel drive model. VW's prices in Canada are stupid here. A new loaded G20 is priced a couple grand above a loaded Golf VR6. :confused:

The A4 might be a better car and can be tuned for less but don't forget the initial price difference. It's over $8K in Canada...that's a lot of SR20 boost baby! :D:D:D Anyway I love my G, if Joe Blow next door doesn't, it's not my problem because I have a smile on my face EVERY time I get in my G. I don't ever intend to sell my G. It will be paid off by the end of the year. It might not be as powerful as an A4 but ironically enough I bought it for the engine. :silly2:

I'd say in Canada here at least the G20 and A4 aren't even in the same league, even though they are both considered 'entry level luxury' sedans. Now wait till the G35 comes out, more compareable price wise, and see who the winner of that catagory will be. :devil:

Originally posted by Anthony
I should think that the Primera and a FWD Audi A4 would be a close call, but a Quattro would blow it away.

Only when it rains. The A4 vs SE-R lap times from the track event were for an A4 Quattro. I should think a G20 or Primera (150PS model) should give it a good run. I think a P10 (lighter weight and no log rear axle) would blow the A4 into the kitty litter.

First of all, please believe me when I say I'm not an A4 hater (I do like the car, however over rated). I also am not blind to the fact the G20/Primera is not a world beater. I am simply replying to some of the comments that have been made and in large part I've stayed away from pure opinion.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
I guess the problem is: there is little aftermarket for the G20.


In large part, that is true. Nissan just never figured out how to market the G20 in North America. They initially tried to market it as a sport sedan, just as the Primera is in the rest of the world. But, being part of the Infiniti line, they got cold feet and decided it should be a baby luxo car. I've always thought they were stupid for that. BTW, I remember very clearly when the G20 came out (I wanted one then) and at the time they did try to market it as a BMW 3 series competitior. From purely a performance/dependability stand point it was (remember the early E30 was a dog). But, the gold chain and yuppie crowd would rather pay for the image of owning a "beemer." :puke:

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Anyhow I'll drop this whole performance thing, but just as Justin said: you may say you can modify your G20 to surpass an A4 per say, but dont forget that you can also modify that A4 also. A simple ECU upgrade ($650) will add 45 wheel HP to a 1.8T, adding 45 wheel (ahem real) HP to an SR20DE is much more expensive.

Oh, that reminds me, the A4 that I've been talking about being beaten by an SE-R......

SEaRl has a A41.8T Quattro with the chip, a full suspension and race tires. With all that crap, he was beaten by 4 seconds a lap by a bone stock SE-R with street tires and bad dampers. That is the truth and there are several witnesses.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
I like cars in general, not just the one I own, so I try to stay pretty open minded. :)

Same here, whether you believe it or not.

I'm not trying to argumentative, but again, when it comes to the performance, I'm quoting facts.

Hi there is no way that a a4 can beat a p11 in any contest of speed ,my brother have a A3 1.8t , the last time we run in a road racing I beat him for about 8 seconds ,I have 2 magazines that include a test with the A3 ,primera ,renault megane,honda civic ,almera gti,astra gsi....etc in parana circuit ,I will post the result ,you will see audi owners that there is noy WAY with the A3(the a4 have nothing to do if you compare even with the A3) in slalom brake and laps in the circuit ,can beat a almera and not even close to the primera .Hope you can undertan my bad english.

my intention was to recruit you in the war against some smug a4 owners on edmunds.com. i didn't intend to start a flame war.

boogie,

you're right, it's going to cost more to get your g20 the hp, but it's also going to cost you a lot more to buy one. 4 more gs is typical. and the audi is less reliable. not everyone goes through a car every two to four years.

i've also heard that chipping an audi/vw comes at a cost. i've heard from some audi owners the chip made their car a b#tch to drive. don't know how much water that holds.

as for nissan's/infiniti's handling of the g20 line. terrible

when the p11 was re-introduded they should have had these options.

1. g20 with sr20de
2. g20 with sr20vvl with stick or cvt
3. g20 with sr20det, with and awd- i'd pay 28 gs for that.

that would have been a killer line up.

i'm just waiting to buy another p10 or p11.

I was actualy going to buy a Audi A4 Quattro before the dealer at Audi wouldnt lower the price and my friends Dad (a Infiniti dealer) gave me a real good price on my G20. I actually wish I got the Audi a lot. I love my G20 but the Audi is just better. I mean you get a chip and you got 200hp! It takes a lot to get a G20 up to 200hp unless you go DET.

hi... this is the voice of reason.

there are three(four?) options for an a4.
1.8t fwd
1.8t quattro
2.8 quattro

so what are we comparing to?
the turbo motor which is a little underpowered in that big awd car, or the v6 which kicks it around pretty nice?

this is like comparing a civic si to a v6 camaro...
you cant take a top o line car from one line and dog on the "lowend of the totem pole" car from the other make...
if you take your top end g20 vs the 2.8 w/ quattro, who would win?
not "topend g20 vs 1.8t fwd"

at least make it logically fair...

and i love audi.
i dont know much about the g20, but i know it is a nice car...
and i wont dog it at all...
but it just needs to be looked at on what is an even ground...

and i agree that the nissan aftermarket sucks here, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist... the only downside to importing an sr20det motor is that you can only have it fwd... kinda shitty...
but it would be hella cool...

and i am glad the point was made about audi being banned from btcc w/ its quattro b/c it wooped ace on everyone... but i talk too much...
just see what i meant... and at least compare evenly...

Originally posted by flylwsi
so what are we comparing to?
the turbo motor which is a little underpowered in that big awd car, or the v6 which kicks it around pretty nice?

I am specifically comparing it to a car whose owner (a former owner of a monster turbo SE-R that was featured in SCC) boasted that his 1.8T Quattro A4 with chip, suspension, and race tires, could beat any SE-R in any contest of speed. :p A bone stock early SE-R with blown struts and crappy street tires kicked his ass. :D

Originally posted by flylwsi
at least make it logically fair...

I'd wager that a stock G20 would beat a stock A4 (any version) on a road course. I'm not trying to dog the A4, but guessing (admittedly) based upon the above ass kicking, the mods to the A4 and knowing the SE-R and G20 intimately. The G20 is an excellent handling car and while the later G20 (P11) is way underpowered for its heft, the handling would make up for the power deficiency on a road course. This is certainly speculation, but it's not without any basis either.

Originally posted by flylwsi
the only downside to importing an sr20det motor is that you can only have it fwd... kinda shitty...
but it would be hella cool...

Thanks. See December's Sport Compact Car. :D

Originally posted by flylwsi
and i am glad the point was made about audi being banned from btcc w/ its quattro b/c it wooped ace on everyone... but i talk too much...
just see what i meant... and at least compare evenly...

Oh most definitely. They've been banned from virtually every series they ran. I think there was some talk at one point (over ten years ago) of banning them from WRC. Now everyone has AWD of course. But, I don't see Audi kicking ass there now.

Anyway, the A4 is a nice car. I probably wouldn't buy one even if I was in that market, but then again, I couldn't tell you what I would buy. I normally stay out of comparison discussions, but I entered this one with direct comparison information. Now it's come down to speculation (even my part), so this is where I will bow out.

Both are excellent cars. Both are under powered and certainly over weight.

im not sure...
an awd car like the audi has a lot of grip...
not as much as an s4, but hey, im not complaining...
the se r is also designed to be more of the sporty car... the a4 is a luxostyle car... and i agree, im glad your cocky a4 guy got whooped...

however, if it were really fair, since the se r is top o the line for the sentra... why not compare it to top of the line s4? it handles like rails and you would need two se r's stock to catch it... and im not doggin, but if the se r is the top of the line w/ great susp and all that, then the s4 is your man... but hell, when you gotta double the price to get an s4, i d take the se r...
hmm...

and yeah, i read the whole g20 motor swap, that is why i brought that up...
i get all those issues about a wk before they come out, b/c the place i work at advertises in em, so we get free copies... luv it...

Originally posted by NismoPC
I do not know how actual these are, but I am not impressed at all. I got this from http://www.car-stats.com/

1997 A4 Quattro 1.8T
0-60: 8.3 1/4: 16.3
1998 A4 Quattro Avant 1.8T
0-60: 7.4 1/4: 15.9
1999 A4 Quattro 1.8T
0-60: 8.4 1/4: 16.2
2001 A4 Quattro Avant 1.8T
0-60: 8.5 1/4: 16.3

That isn't much better than a P10 G20 doing 0-60: 8.3 1/4: 16.3

Sorry but that doesn't sound right. 2001 A4 1.8T had 170bhp and it weights the same as 2000. So it is faster than 2000 but yet you state it's slower. 2000 and prior only had 150bhp. 1997 A4 is lighter than 1998 A4 and yet you state 98 is faster.

Originally posted by flylwsi
however, if it were really fair, since the se r is top o the line for the sentra... why not compare it to top of the line s4?

Well, if we really want to be fair, let's compare it to a Skyline GTR. :D

Hehe. Just teasing you. I said I was through with this thread, but I couldn't resist the jab. :right:

Thanks for the kind words about my article.

Originally posted by P10DET


I am specifically comparing it to a car whose owner (a former owner of a monster turbo SE-R that was featured in SCC) boasted that his 1.8T Quattro A4 with chip, suspension, and race tires, could beat any SE-R in any contest of speed. :p A bone stock early SE-R with blown struts and crappy street tires kicked his ass. :D

I will have to go check the SER list archives but I always thought the A4 in question was a 2.8 model, pre the 5 valve head.

I know, I know George, check the archives :)

BTW the way I read your article, very well done and great pictures as we've come to expect from you. Good pic of the power steering cooler rerouting, I like to think I helped a little with that. Also the intercooler is a very nice setup, much cleaner than what I had, although likely more expensive.

Regards,
Antony

Sorry guys...I have driven the A4 1.8T Quattro...I have ridden in a 2000 G20....and I love my 92 G20...but that A4 just puts the G to shame...
it is damn fast..handles like an indy car

Originally posted by junglist
but that A4 just puts the G to shame...
it is damn fast..handles like an indy car
You've driven an indy car? :eek:

Bring that A4 to Shannoville this summer I'll give it a run! :D

first off..the A4 I drove is not mine, it is a friend's....second...it was stock..no add-on parts needed to smoke a G
third...no I have not driven an indy car...figure of speech. Forth...if I could bring it Shannonville..it would smoke your G.:D

show up or shut up ;) bring the A4..since you started this..and we'll see who smoke who?

Hm one is in Ontario and the other in California.

I'm in Ontario. Even with ALL my mods I still come in WAY under the price of a stock A4 1.8t Quattro. And I promise you I'll smoke your ass! :D

Face it like I said before stock for stock the G20 can't really touch the A4 Quattro, but the price difference really puts these two out or direct competition. And once you aftermarket the G20 up to the price level of and A4 (~10K CND), well there's nothing like a G. :D

Well you could also skip buying a BMW M3 and buy a Honda Civic and put the extra $40,000 USD into performance upgrades to make it faster than an M3.

Doesnt mean its a better car.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Well you could also skip buying a BMW M3 and buy a Honda Civic and put the extra $40,000 USD into performance upgrades to make it faster than an M3.

Doesnt mean its a better car.
It's all subjective. The guy that pours $40K into a civic has a pretty unique civic and yes to him it is probably a better car than a stock M3.

I think G20 + $10K is a better car than a stock A4. You might not but then again noone is forcing you to buy a G20, Civic, BMW or an A4.

I'm done with this because at least here in Canada the price difference between the two cars is so vast that it doesn't even warrent a comparison. Let's compare a Civic EX with a Subaru WRX while we're at it. :silly2: