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Heater Core bad in 8 months? Urgent - Help Please


Brent S
04-30-2009, 11:08 AM
I had my heater core replace Sept '08 in my '99 GTP at the dealer, and they flushed out the cooling system. They chared $1,000. Now, 8 months later, I brought it back because I smelled coolant again. The service mgr just called saying the core is bad again, BUT my coolant is contaminated which caused the core to fail. He didn't find out what the "contamination" is, yet. Does that sound right, that coolant can cause a brand new heater core to fail in only 8 months? What could contaminate it? Oil, trans fluid? How do I know whether it wasn't simply a defective core? Any advice before I get hosed? (sorry for the pun)

richtazz
04-30-2009, 12:03 PM
you service manager is full of @$#%! Antifreeze contamination may cause the core to clog if whatever is in there blocks a passage, but it will not cause a physical failure resulting in a leak. Even if you have an oil leak say from a bad LIM gasket, that would not cause a heater core to spring a leak. If they flushed the system, find out what he says is contaminating the cooling system. It sounds like he's trying to get out of doing it again for free.

Brent S
04-30-2009, 03:31 PM
I really appreciate the reply. I spoke to another non-dealer mechanic that I've used, and he also says he never heard of oil (or some other "contaminant") mixing w/ coolant to form a corrosive mixture to rot-out a heater core in 8 months. I'm kinda stuck, because the dealer doesn't seem to be able to tell me what the contaminant is, where it's coming from, how much would it be to fix, etc. etc. And If I take it somewhere else, I'd have to pay for the second core, and possibly any other so-called contaminant problem.
How can you tell if the coolant is contaminated?
How do they determine if/where oil is coming in? Do they pressurize the oil system some how?
Any other recommendations?

richtazz
04-30-2009, 03:51 PM
If he can't tell you what the contaminant is, how did he determine it is contaminated? They flushed your system when they replaced the last heater core, so either they didn't get all the flush chemical out before adding new coolant and that's what corroded the new core (and why he won't tell you what the contaminant is), or he's full of crap and trying to take you for a ride. Put your foot down, go over his head to the service manager or the Dealership manager, and tell them to make it right.

BNaylor
04-30-2009, 06:12 PM
Is there a confirmed leak coming out from any part of the radiator? The oil or combustion byproduct contamination could be bad intake gaskets mainly LIM.

When radiators fail leaking coolant will be visible or if clogged the engine will rapidly overheat.

Brent S
04-30-2009, 09:18 PM
I'm pretty sure the heater core is leaking, because it smells like coolant, especially when you turn the heat adjustment to Hot. It smells just like it did 8 months ago when the core went bad last time.
I don't think it's leaking much, because the coolant level never got low, nor did I notice any under the car. Although, I first smelled it on Tues, and brought the car right in.
Aren't there troubleshooting procedures to determine whether oil (or something else?) is leaking into the cooling system? Shouldn't they be able to provide clear estimates on what needs to be done?

BNaylor
04-30-2009, 10:44 PM
Ah the heater core. Sorry I missed that on your first post. Check underneath the passenger and driver's side carpeting. If you smell coolant then it should be leaking. I've replaced one and it is a PITA to replace. Was it an AC Delco or the original Delphi heater core? There is a difference between the two.

Brent S
05-04-2009, 06:51 AM
I didn't notice any coolant on the floor. But, you definitely smell it, especially if you turn the temp control from all cold to all hot, while the fan is on. So, there's coolant leaking somewhere in or near the core. I don't what core the put in last sept., but it was at the dealer, sooo?
Update: I stopped in the dealer to see the "contamination". There was about 1 oz of light brown frothy sludge on the bottom of the radiator cap and around the top of the filler neck. Being that the core & coolant was replaced 8 mo & 10K miles ago, it does appear like I am getting some oil leaking into the system (is 1 oz every 10K miles too much?). I suspected I was getting some last year, due to noticing this same type of sludge, and from the "Low Coolant" sensor issues I was having. So, I told the dealer to determine what's wrong and to provide an estimate. They required that I authorize 1 hour labor ($105) for this work.
Does it sound like a head gasket? LIM gasket? Are there standard labor rates for these services? Any idea what I should expect there estimate to be?

Brent S
05-04-2009, 07:10 AM
Another update: Just got a call from dealer, and they feel it's the LIM gasket, that's allowing oil to be getting into the coolant. Hopefully, they're not wrong, and it's not a head gasket. Anyway, they say to change that gasket, UIM gasket, hoses, thermostat, etc. will be around $1400, and they're replacing the heater core under warranty. So, since I didn't want to go for a new car, I'm going forward with this fix.

richtazz
05-04-2009, 08:20 AM
$1400 is highway robbery. There isn't 4-5 hours of labor in what they're doing, so I would tell them to get bent on the engine work. As far as the heater core, there is no way a little oil in the coolant caused the heater core to go bad. Take your car to someone else for an estimate on the intake work, and get them to state that the heater core leaking is unrelated. Then go back to the dealer and make them change the heater core under warranty.

richtazz
05-04-2009, 09:04 AM
to make my point, here's the breakdown of parts cost. This is full dealer retail pricing, no discounts whatsoever.

LIM gasket: 89017825- $66.40
S/C gasket: 24503911- $12.56
thermostat: 24505924- $17.42
upper hose: 10421339- $46.43
lower hose: 10423132- $40.07
_______
grand total for parts $182.88

Now, allowing $20/gallon for coolant ($40), miscellaneous items such as cleaning chemicals, hose clamps, etc... let's round the parts/supplies total to $250. That means they are charging you $1150 labor for a job that shouldn't take more than 5-6 hours at a dealership, so their charging you close to $200/hour. That's re-fricking-diculous!!!! Either that, or they're rolling the additional labor for the 2nd heater core into your estimate for the engine work.

Brent S
05-04-2009, 10:35 AM
Thanks much for the info. I'm waiting for them to call me back with a price breakdown.
This is why I try to do as much stuff myself, as I can.
Auto service is one of my most-hated industries. It's a tremendous industry, with no watch-dog or oversight agencies.........at least that I know of. For example: maybe the heater core was just a loose connection, or something? Who knows. There seems to be sooo much room for possible corruption, sabotage, fraud, etc. I may just lease my next car..........beat the hell out of it, and turn it in at the end.

Brent S
05-04-2009, 10:40 AM
Ok, just spoke to him, and he's going to call back with the breakdown. He's claiming around 10 hours labor, I guess. And that doesn't include the labor for the heater core. Is there some kind of standard labor rate for services such as this, that the dealers have? How would someone like me, know (or argue) that the labor should be less?

tblake
05-04-2009, 11:03 AM
I have a hard time believing bad LIM gaskets can cause oil contamination. The brown sludge is probably just dex-cool thats been contaminated by air in the system. (possible caused by bad LIM gaskets)

I just replaced my LIM gaskets in my GTP in my driveway and it took just under 4 hours. And I'm no GM trained tech (close maybe). Maybe you should try and tackle the job yourself. Refire to my and Bob's posts regarding LIM gasket replacement....

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=951637

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=936863

We could help you with torque specs and component locations if you forget where anything goes.

Sounds to me like the dealer is trying to charge you the hours for the LIM and the Heater core. My sources show that to remove and replace the Lower intake gaskets on an L67, flat rate time is 3.8hrs. Heater core removal and replacement flat rate time is only 2.8 hrs. So either way your getting hosed. Make sure you let them know 10 hours for LIM gaskets is unfair and you insist that its no more than 3.8 or threaten to go someplace else.

BNaylor
05-04-2009, 08:34 PM
My sources show that to remove and replace the Lower intake gaskets on an L67, flat rate time is 3.8hrs. Heater core removal and replacement flat rate time is only 2.8 hrs. So either way your getting hosed. Make sure you let them know 10 hours for LIM gaskets is unfair and you insist that its no more than 3.8 or threaten to go someplace else.

:confused:

I wish I was good enough to do a heater core in 2.8 hrs. Thats probably right for a super pro but still seems unrealistic. You have to remove or move back the center console and the plastic pieces under the dash are a PITA to remove and re-install. The job took me 6 hours darn near nonstop disassembly and assembly and my back didn't feel too good either for a few days. :grinno:

Brent S
05-05-2009, 07:16 AM
Another update:
Dealer is charging 5.8 hrs for LIM gaskets, 1.2 hours for 4 hoses, and 1.0 hour for extra "cleaning" because of the brown sludge "contmination" (8 hrs total). So, I argued and argued, but because they won't simply replace the core without addressing the "contamination" that supposedly caused it, I'm giving up this time, and I guess I'm getting hosed for a few extra hours of labor. Additionally, not only does their receipt state: "Warranty....labor and parts for 90 days or 4000 miles...", it also states: "warranty repairs to be performed at the seller's place of business...", so, I technically, I don't even have anything in writing saying that the heater core is still under warranty (but they claim it's still under warranty....luckily for me). Next time, I will try to do even more stuff myself, rather than going through this crap. I consider this to be my "charity"..........this and all the taxes I pay.
My next task will be to replace a front wheel hub that has extra play in it, so they won't fail my New York State inspection (Damn New York !!!). FYI: They quoted around $500 to replace the hub. Thanks for all your help.

tblake
05-05-2009, 08:00 PM
You can still just walk away.

If I were you, I'd replace the LIM gaskets myself, and then go back afterwards and have them replace the heater core out of warrenty.

500 for a hub swap is just plain out rape. I could do it in my driveway in an hour or less.

BNaylor
05-05-2009, 08:08 PM
500 for a hub swap is just plain out rape. I could do it in my driveway in an hour or less.

Darn Tim. Man, I must be slow or getting old. :uhoh:

I just did the left front driver's side on my GTP this past weekend. It took me a little under two hours but I normally take my time and try hard do the job right the first time. AC Delco hub and it came with the three hub to steering knuckle bolts with threadlocker. However, it did not come with a new axle nut so I got one from one of the local GM dealerships. The most time consuming part is removing the three hub to knuckle bolts but PBBlaster sure comes in handy. Plus it helps on getting the the axle shaft spline off the hub. No hub puller or sledge hammer needed. :lol:

tblake
05-05-2009, 08:31 PM
Darn Tim. Man, I must be slow or getting old. :uhoh:

I just did the left front driver's side on my GTP this past weekend. It took me a little under two hours but I normally take my time and try hard do the job right the first time. AC Delco hub and it came with the three hub to steering knuckle bolts with threadlocker. However, it did not come with a new axle nut so I got one from one of the local GM dealerships. The most time consuming part is removing the three hub to knuckle bolts but PBBlaster sure comes in handy. Plus it helps on getting the the axle shaft spline off the hub. No hub puller or sledge hammer needed. :lol:

Sorry Bob! I didnt mean it that way! :lol2:

I think that I'm so used to pulling apart the front end of my car that I could do it in my sleep.:shakehead

No sledgehammer needed for you? I usually need to take a couple good hard cracks at it with a large hammer to free it from the spindle. Then its just a matter of wedging a large flatblade screwdriver behind it and prying it off. I also find it easier to turn the wheel to one side and get a breaker bar in on the stubborn hub bolts.

Then a light coating of anti-sieze on the hub to spindle mating surface and the axel splines makes removal of it next time a little easier.

doctorhrdware
05-05-2009, 09:54 PM
Damm the stealership must be really hurting for money. $500 to change the the hub assy. I stay away from the stealership as much as possible. Need to save what little money that I get, which is not much.

BNaylor
05-05-2009, 11:08 PM
No sledgehammer needed for you? I usually need to take a couple good hard cracks at it with a large hammer to free it from the spindle.

Just a regular household hammer. I put (thread) the old axle nut on the end of the axle shaft spline and then put the 35mm axle nut socket over the axle nut. Tap on the socket. One tap is all it takes and since I do not have rust or corrosion issues I can pull the hub off the knuckle with my hands.


Then a light coating of anti-sieze on the hub to spindle mating surface and the axel splines makes removal of it next time a little easier.

I use Bel-Ray waterproof bearing grease on the axle shaft splines and inside the hub before installing the new hub.

Hopefully there won't be a next time. :grinno:

doctorhrdware
05-06-2009, 02:23 AM
Just a regular household hammer. I put (thread) the old axle nut on the end of the axle shaft spline and then put the 35mm axle nut socket over the axle nut. Tap on the socket. One tap is all it takes and since I do not have rust or corrosion issues I can pull the hub off the knuckle with my hands.



I use Bel-Ray waterproof bearing grease on the axle shaft splines and inside the hub before installing the new hub.

Hopefully there won't be a next time. :grinno:

Next time you can do mine front hub assy.:lol2:

richtazz
05-06-2009, 07:48 AM
In the rust belt up here, anti-sieze is our best friend isn't it Tim? PB blaster is another of my best friends, as it free's up rust better than anything else I've tried.

To Brent S, I would tell that dealership you have there to take a flying f#$k at a rolling donut. They are trying to bone you hardcore.

doctorhrdware
05-06-2009, 02:52 PM
In the rust belt up here, anti-sieze is our best friend isn't it Tim? PB blaster is another of my best friends, as it free's up rust better than anything else I've tried.

I love PB blaster how we were able to do repairs with out this stuff.

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