What are some good reliable cars that are cheap ?

im looking to buy a car in the price range of 2000 - 4000 dollars.

Ive been looking into the toyota celic, honda civic, pontiac grand prix. Any other suggestions on what ar i should get.

Saturn SC2? I don't know how old or new you are looking but I have never been disappointed with any of my saturns. Hyundai tiboron isn't to bad either.

Unless you have a couple thousand extra to spen on repairs I would stay away from the pontiac! Its hard to find bad Honda and Toyota but not impossible

....Unless you have a couple thousand extra to spen on repairs I would stay away from the pontiac! Its hard to find bad Honda and Toyota but not impossible

WHAT?

No, the things that go wrong with pontiacs are Lower Intake Gaskets, Crank Position Sensors, MAF sensors, and wheel hubs. All of which are easy repairs and the parts can be purchased at any auto parts place for a decent price.

Can't really say that about honda's or toyota's. Although very good cars, When an issue does happen, you better have thousands to throw at it due to high labor costs and part availability.

Friend of mine broke a timing belt on his honda prelude v-tec, 2.2 DOHC (h22a1). The darn thing, man I went through a fiasco with it. Not to mention replacing all the bent valves, the head gaskets were hard to find, I went through 3 different timing belts before I got the right one, once putting the belt on, found out that the tensioner was shot and the waterpump on there was the wrong one and wouldnt line up to the t-belt cogs. What a mess.... Not to mention that the head bolts were dealer only. I walked in there and told the parts guy what I wanted and for what motor. He looked it up and goes, "that will be $13.75, do you want all 10 of them?". That question caught me off guard. I looked at him and said yes. Then he said, "ok, your total comes to 145.00" WHAT?!?!?!? No, I think I'll pass on them head bolts. Anyways, started the rebuild process on that car in feburary, and wasn't able to finish untill june.

Bottom line, buy what you want, test drive numerous cars before you decide, and take the one that fits you.

Recommending a Saturn but dissing a Grand Prix? Wow, you have exquisite taste Airjer.

Every Saturn I've ever seen is burning oil badly at about 140k, and usually have blown a head gasket before that, especially the twin cam models (which the SC-2 is). As Tim stated, test drive anything you're interested in. The Grand Prix is a great looking car and other than a few issues that all cars have, very dependable. We have members at the Grand Prix Forums with a ton of miles, one has over 325k miles and it's still running great. The other cars you mentioned are smaller, so if you're looking for something zippy, the GP may not be for you. As Tim stated, find one that fits you and your budget and do your homework. Any car from any car maker can be a lemon and no matter how dependable it is, if you don't like how it drives you'll never be happy.

First of all I have never had a head gasket fail on any of my DOHC 1.9's. I have seen and replaced many 1.9 SOHC heads due to head porosity. Yes they do burn oil but so do a lot of other cars, irrelevant point!

Second of all it would have been a lot easier to replace the t-belt at its recommended service interval and saved your buddy a lot of time and money. His negligence should not be a valid argument to the quality of the vehicle. Strike 2 for irrelevance, its not hondas fault maintenance was neglected resulting in needless and expensive repairs.

We service many honda and toyota vehicles that are in incredible condition with well over 250k miles. Most if not all of this have most of the original O.E. parts on them! I guess I would rather spend a couple of hours replacing a timing belt then a day and a lot more cash replacing a transmission, intake gaskets, wheel bearings, window regulators, chasing misc. electrical anomolies, broken sway bars, lower control arm bushings, Front timing cover gaskets, fuel pumps, alternators, water pumps, all the a/c issues, lets not forget all the EVAP issues while we are at it, and god knows when and where it will leave you stranded! You don't have to preach to me, I see and fix it every day. If you want to drive a car get one that spends less time with its wheels off the ground!!!

How is burning oil an irrelevant point when talking about dependability?

Tim never knocked Honda's quality, he just mentioned the fact that they can be difficult to get parts for and are too technical for the average DIY to work on. Do you even read posts before commenting?

My GP has had less done to it than my cousins Honda Accord of the same mileage and year, and what I've had to do has cost me significantly less. The quality gap has closed immensely between the Japanese and American cars to almost be non-existant, but our biased media has it out for the American car industry and won't let it go.

As I stated before, get a car that fits you, the way you drive, and where you live. I love my Grand Prix, and my cousin loves his Accord (neither of which burns oil BTW). All cars have their issues and making an informed choice is what will make you happy.

...Second of all it would have been a lot easier to replace the t-belt at its recommended service interval and saved your buddy a lot of time and money. His negligence should not be a valid argument to the quality of the vehicle. Strike 2 for irrelevance, its not hondas fault maintenance was neglected resulting in needless and expensive repairs.

Yes, replacing the belt at the recommended change interval would have been better, but how many timing belts do we break on our 3800 GP's? How many timing belts do we have to replace?

To add one more thing... To the OP. Do internet research, and its usually best to test drive all the vehicle's your intrested in all in the same day one right after the other.

If you want to drive a car get one that spends less time with its wheels off the ground!!!

:shakehead

I did 12 years ago called a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. It has never left me stranded. :grinno:

Nissan Sentra maybe.

:shakehead

I did 12 years ago called a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. It has never left me stranded. :grinno:


Isn't that something Bob?

I was dinking around with my car the other day (cleaning the bird sh1t off actually) when I though to myself. Jees, is this car really 10 years old already? For its age, it sure doesnt look it, body and hardware are holding together nicely. Plus the motor is as strong as the day it rolled off the assembly line (even more so now :naughty:) And has never left me stranded either.

Well, I don't know if any of us has asked him this question or not? Do you want something that is fairly easy to work on? Gas mileage, even cup holders? Tell us what some of the things that you like so we can tell you what features are available in the cars we have or know about.

The first part of the OP's post is self explanatory. See below.

im looking to buy a car in the price range of 2000 - 4000 dollars.

Personally I would not buy a used car in that price range. I don't care if it is a domestic or import.

It will probably be a money pit!

just one little comment...how many times was the 3800 motor voted best motor of the year by motor trend?

if you get a GP...just make sure its got the 3800 and not the 3100.

The 3100 is a good motor. I've got nothing bad to say about it, but the 3800 beats it in power and reliability hands down.

Well, I'll never own anything else with a 3800, I have a buick regal with that in it now it's been a pain, everything about it. Biggest thing was the plastic bypass hose fitting, it broke off and I had a time with that I tell ya. Not sure what all GM vehicles with this motor has this or not but if you get it I would definitely check to see what kind of fitting is there and if it is plastic go ahead and replace it before it breaks off. And what is up with plastic intake manifolds? Well, this isn't a motor issue really more of a space issue surrounding but everything is impossible to get to, may be more area to work with on the grand prix but not sure. I had to raise the engine up just to drop the oil pan to change the gasket.

That is why I love my 1986. I can climb in the engine compartment if I need to. And the only thing I have had to replace on it is the tires, fuel, and break lines.

Well, I'll never own anything else with a 3800, I have a buick regal with that in it now it's been a pain, everything about it.

Likewise I have two Regals. A '01 GS (75K miles) which is been totally trouble free since purchase new and a '99 LS which had some of the typical issues seen with the Series II 3800 VIN "K" engine but to date has 140K miles and now 10 years old. Both cars are still going strong.

Likewise I have two Regals. A '01 GS (75K miles) which is been totally trouble free since purchase new and a '99 LS which had some of the typical issues seen with the Series II 3800 VIN "K" engine but to date has 140K miles and now 10 years old. Both cars are still going strong.

Bob, he's saying he will never own a car with a 3800 again. LOL

ctwright, coolant bypass elbows, LIM gaskets, and upper intake manifolds are pretty common fail points on the 3800. All of which are relatively easy to replace all things considered.

Raising the motor and dropping the subframe to change the oil pan gasket is going to be pretty much the norm for every FWD vehicle on the road today. Its usually either you have to drop the frame to change the oil pan gasket or drop the frame to change the trans pan gasket. Just the way it is.

It is his choice Tim. :dunno:

I would not hesitate to buy another SII 3800 L67 or L36 equipped GM car. I thought I would never live to see the day I would buy a Ford product but I did. A '08 Ford F-150 King Cab 4X4 with 5.4L Triton V8. I need it for off road use and transporting my dirt bike.

On the coolant bypass elbows the only reason why I have broken them is due to replacement of the LIM gaskets and removing the tensioner assembly not that they leaked on their own although it does happen.

ctwright, coolant bypass elbows, LIM gaskets, and upper intake manifolds are pretty common fail points on the 3800. All of which are relatively easy to replace all things considered.




Exactly my point, they are all common fail points because GM decides to not use any good common since and use cheap parts in their vehicles that any idiot should know won't last.

And about the subframe on the buick. The part that is blocking the oil pan from coming out, isn't the frame section that is going from the left to right, it's a piece welded to that frame section and it's only blocking it by a bit, there is absolutely no reason for that piece to be there other than to stop you from dropping the thing, I'll try to get a chance to take a pic to show you exactly what I mean. The frame section I'm talking about runs along side the oil pan, and the part I'm talking about that is welded to it is only under a small section of the oil pan making it impossible to drop it without turning it into an all day job and requiring tools you wouldn't normally have. If it was there to protect the oil pan it should be under the whole thing, that is there for no other purpose to cause agrivation, I've looked over it really well and it is nothing but a block to stop the average Joe from working on his own car.

GM has gotten shoddy with all their parts recently, and to tell you the truth, I dont think has ever gotten a LIM gasket right.

I'd like to have a look at the part of the frame that is blocking the pan to be removed if you could get a picture.

Tim it is the same issue with the Grand Prix and other similar GM "W" body cars like the Intrigue, Monte Carlo, Lumina, etc. and I'm quite sure models like the LeSabre and Park Avenue and Pontiac Bonneville so it is no new revelation. It is the FWD design as you pointed out earlier.

This isn't the best view available I wasn't going to go through the trouble of jacking the car up and putting it on stands but I hope you can get a good idea of what I'm talking about.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=503/607020oil_pan_blocked-med.JPG

I believe in 2001 or 2002,GM went to an aluminum oil pan on the series II 3800s which the pan gasket does not leak.The series II 3800 and Series III 3800s do interchange and the book is wrong on the interchange.The intake manifold has to be changed with some other parts.My father knows someone that has done this.If it has that 3.4 DOHC,run away from it.It is very expensive to fix if it breaks

Wow, it still looks very oily under there. Did you actually get the pan gasket swapped out?

Mine is seepling slightly too. Only about a half quart between oil changes. Its been like that since I got the car and it has not gotten any worse so I dont really have any intention to change it.

Have you inspected your valve cover gasktes? It could be dripping from up top and making it all the way down to the pan.

Well, actually, I just had done it last week, and that is probably I guess why it's still fresh in my mind and irritated with it. I haven't cleaned it any since, I haven't really taken it anywhere other than to test it out, gauge is showing good now though which is a relief, it was getting close to the red mark when coming to stop and would turn off before even getting a chance to turn it off myself after seeing it drop to that point. That was where I removed the timing chain cover and changed the oil pump gears, and decided to change the oil pan gasket while I was at it because the bottom was so oily.

Reason I haven't drove it though is because I screwed up a couple mounts doing the job, hard to try to get them to line up just one person going back and forth from under the car to the engine hoist lowering it, and one of them got twisted and turned sideways when I let the engine down, I thought I had it lined up before dropping it but I didn't. Motor jumps around like crazy now, gonna try to replace all the mounts next weekend, it's a 93 so probably need new ones anyway.

I believe in 2001 or 2002,GM went to an aluminum oil pan on the series II 3800s which the pan gasket does not leak.The series II 3800 and Series III 3800s do interchange and the book is wrong on the interchange.The intake manifold has to be changed with some other parts.My father knows someone that has done this.If it has that 3.4 DOHC,run away from it.It is very expensive to fix if it breaks

I didn't know 3800's came with an aluminum oil pan.

Not sure how intake manifolds interchanging between series 2 and series 3 3800's came into play.

I love the 3.4DOHC motor. Its the best! :rolleyes:

Not sure how intake manifolds interchanging between series 2 and series 3 3800's came into play.



:confused:

Me too! :lol:

Yeah and as usual he mentions his father while we know people that actually did the conversion on the UIM for what it is worth. I didn't post this thread at our Tips & Maintenance subforum for nothing. See link.

Click here (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=701174)

When he mentioned aluminum oil pan, I was intrigued. Is there really such a thing?

Off topic a bit here, but would an aluminum subframe from say a 2002 impala direct fit into our GP's instead of that heavy cast one?

When he mentioned aluminum oil pan, I was intrigued. Is there really such a thing?

Maybe aftermarket. As far as '97 - '03 Grand Prixs with SII 3800 engine L36 or L67 it is the same old stamped steel oil pan and same old pre-formed gasket. My '01 Regal GS doesn't have an aluminum oil pan stock. :grinno:

The 3100/3400 V6 engines have an aluminum oil pan at least our '02 Olds Alero GL2 has one.

Answers my question Bob, thanks! Guess I'll just be happy with what God gave me.

About 2001 and up Bonnevilles,Lesabres and Park Avanues do have an aluminum oil pan

About 2001 and up Bonnevilles,Lesabres and Park Avanues do have an aluminum oil pan

Are you sure?

Are you sure your not thinking of the 3100/3400 motors and not the 3800?

You dont have any spairs laying around do you?

Well, I know he said 2001 and up and you asked if he was sure it wasn't the 3100/3400s. To the one who said it's aluminum, which ever vehicle it is if you have it crawl under it and see if a magnet will stick to it, if it does it isn't aluminum.

I'm not 100% sure but I think '00 and up GM "H" body cars like the Buick LeSabre and Pontiac Bonneville until discontinued by GM do have aluminum oil pans. Neither one have the 3100 or 3400 engines either, only the SII 3800. But that doesn't mean all GM cars with the SII 3800 engine can use it or it is backwards compatible. The "H" body cars use a different subframe versus the GM "W" body cars like the Grand Prix, Regal, etc so there may be fitment issues. And the way the engine and transaxle mounts is different.

According to my documentation the GM Part number is supposed to be 12587389. The part listing specifies LeSabre and Bonneville only.

We can have our GM parts specialist Rich - Richtazz confirm this.

I am talking about the 3800s with an aluminum oil pan.I parted out a 2002 Buick Lesabre with the series II 3800 w/an aluminum oilpan.The pan gasket on them is a one piece rubber gasket

I am talking about the 3800s with an aluminum oil pan.I parted out a 2002 Buick Lesabre with the series II 3800 w/an aluminum oilpan.The pan gasket on them is a one piece rubber gasket

:rolleyes:

As a reminder this is a Pontiac Grand Prix forum so lets keep the topic on target. The LeSabre is irrelevant at this forum. Show me a SII 3800 equipped '97-'03 Pontiac Grand Prix that has an aluminum oil pan.

Second of all it would have been a lot easier to replace the t-belt at its recommended service interval and saved your buddy a lot of time and money.
I would like to go my whole life without ever being a vehicle that has to have major engine work as part of a scheduled maintenance.

I would like to go my whole life without ever being a vehicle that has to have major engine work as part of a scheduled maintenance.

Changing a timing belt is not "major" engine work per say. It is rather extensive, and if you havn't worked on cars before its best left to the pros (who usually charge 600-1000 on the job depending on the car)

Then its best to stick to ohv/pushrod type motors like the 3800's and not buy any that are SOHC or DOHC with timing belts.

So many people think that pushrod technology is primitive as in comparison to OHC type motors. But its hard to beat the 3800 motor in reliability and economy (32+mpg).

Changing a timing belt is not "major" engine work per say. It is rather extensive, and if you havn't worked on cars before its best left to the pros (who usually charge 600-1000 on the job depending on the car)

Then its best to stick to ohv/pushrod type motors like the 3800's and not buy any that are SOHC or DOHC with timing belts.

So many people think that pushrod technology is primitive as in comparison to OHC type motors. But its hard to beat the 3800 motor in reliability and economy (32+mpg).

With 365,000 miles, I'd have to say my 97 is the best car I've ever owned. I'm sold on the 3800.

I guess I will go out and say you could find a reliable used far for under $4k. A lot of those mid-late 90's Hondas would actually make for a great DD. Also, the 3800 W bodies seem to hold together quite well from my experience and are cheap to own. Do some research and take some test drives and I am sure you will figure it out. Best of luck!

To answer the oil pan question, it is true that the B and H-body cars came with aluminum oil pans. They use the same gasket and oil pump pick-up screen as the W-bodies, but I don't have any info on whether or not it will clear the W-body subframe. If it will, you'd be good to go

Aluminum pan GM part #12587389 as Bob mentioned earlier.
OEM steel GP pan GM part #12563240.

Regretfully, none of my local dealers have both on the shelf to do a side by side comparison to see if they would interchange and clear the W-body subframe.

Thanks Rich. If I get a chance I can compare them at a salvage yard but don't hold your breath since I am busy. :lol:

The subframes are different to include the way the engine and tranny mounts. They do not have the two wishbone froward engine mounts. And the passenger side mount is a PITA and makes removing the serpentine drive belt difficult. I've worked on a few '97 and up LeSabres.

I hate that darn passenger side motor mount on them cars. Same way on the Grand Am's and Alero's with 3400's, right?

Same way on the Grand Am's and Alero's with 3400's, right?

Yup, a real PITA.

Just my gut feeling but I don't think those aluminum pans will fit on our GPs due to the subframe, etc.

Might be a nice Mod though if it does.

Anyone willing to give it a shot?

I think you guys will be hard pressed to make the aluminum oil pans fit the 97-04 W Bodies.. For these years you have the front mount and bracket, the bracket will prevent you from fitting the aluminum oil pan and oil filter adapter on to the motor.. 05+ series III engine all had the Aluminum Structural oil pan and the front mount was a redesign..

But, the earlier aluminum oil pans used a gasket much like out valve cover gaskets...

The series III aluminum oil pan used no gasket, there is simply a bead of RTV ran across the face of the pan and the pan is glued to the Block...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Jr3800/L26%20Series%20III/L26CamInstall050.jpg

I had to yank this aluminum oil pan from my L26 series III thats going into my van( U body 95 Transport )... This van was set up a lot like a W Body in terms of the dog bone and the front mount... The mount would not clear the aluminum oil pan... I could not grind much from the oil pan without destroying it, nor would I have been able to cut enough off the motor mount without destroying it... So I had to revert to the Stamped Steel oil pan..

But that aluminum oil pan will fit my 95 Bonneville, so at the least it will get some use...LOL


There is a possibility that the mount you guys have could clear the oil pan... Does anyone have a W body front mount and an aluminum oil pan to test with? I know that mount gets extremely close to the block and makes oil pan bolt removal as bad as removing the oil pan..

Great Info!

I would be afraid a silicone pan gasket would leak. Would a rubber gasket work in its place?

I think you guys will be hard pressed to make the aluminum oil pans fit the 97-04 W Bodies..

I agree and really not worth it.

BTW - How's life at the Bonny forum and Walmart?