LIM or Head Gasket question again

Hi all, I need to determine if its one or the other or both. This is a 1999 Venture with 183K. I know the mileage is high, but the times being what they are, I think I'll take a crack at it, as I have down a head gasket before on a Dodge Caravan.

The symptoms are, erratic heating. Sometimes it will stay near the normal area or it will go straight to the hot area. I was and still am having a misfire on #2 cylinder (Posted earlier about that). At first I thought it was a stuck thermostat, because the first time it overheated, I shut it down and went out to feel the radiator hose and it was warm. When I restarted it. it went right to the cold side of the gauge. I continued driving it without any problems. After work later that day, it worked fine. I took the radiator cap off while the engine was running that night and I did see some small bubbles near the top of the filler neck.

The next day it did pretty much the same thing, went right to hot again. I finally parked it and called the wife to finish bringing me in to work. After work that day, it did show an overheat condition again on the gauge. I just stopped when it got hot and let it cool down and went back and finished driving it home.

Yesterday I took another look and just let it set and idle while I bled the air out of the bleeder screws. There was a lot of air in it. It set there for at least 20 minutes and stayed just about at the normal range.

Before I started it, I checked the compression on the "easy" side and I got, #2-105 lbs, #4-140 lbs., #6- 110 lbs. Does that sound OK to you guys?

I also took a sample of the oil in the base and it didn't show any water in it at all.

I should add that I have been putting "some" Dexcool in the expansion tank over the last year or so. I might have used a gallon out of the 2 gallons that I had made up.

Also, this has had a LIM gasket replaced once before by a dealership at about 83K and have had no problems at all until now.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Toni.

It sounds like head gaskets to me. The erratic overheating and the extreme temps you get so quickly are just what to expect with a head gasket. The 104, 140, 110 sounds like a bad head, not gasket. The difference between cylinders is too high. I'm guessing that you have bad rear head gasket and also cracked valve seats in the head.

It will strand you out on the road somewhere if you don't plan the repair on your terms not the van's:naughty:
Look over the head gasket posts and size up the repair. Not that bad, but you need to plan for the time and have the kit in hand first.

Im having the same problem ,the same symptoms. I just did my LIM last november. I thougt it was my termostat ,so I replaced that. I also replaced water pump and rad cap. Bled the system and it was O.k for a week . Then yestarday van got over heated again. So this morning I took everythink right down to the LIM. Tomorrow I start pulling heads. I ve never done heads yet, how much more time is there to pull them, any tricks? I also will change oxygen sensor and egr valve because Im getting faults Po 1404 Po 301 Po 141. Thanks for any input.

Thanks merc 81,
I had a feeling it might be the head(s) anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to remove the upper and lower manifolds anyway when doing the head gaskets? I figured why not do both while I'm right there. Hopefully won't have to ever go back again.

I'm right with you 2000, actually you're one up on me, I've never done either. I know there's a lot of info. on this site, so I'll make good use of that.

Any recommendations on the gaskets? I think I read where Fel-Pro were among the best. I'm not sure what NAPA sells, but they gave me a quote for $160 for the head set and intake set. The head bolts were separate, which surprised me as I've heard that it is recommended that they be replaced with the gaskets.

I need to look over the posts and see what I'll need for extra tools. I'm pretty sure I'll need an inch/lb torque wrench and I believe a set of crows foot wrenches. A tube of RTV sealant and a new set of plugs while I'm right there. I had bought a thermostat last fall and haven't used that, so I'll put that in.

Anything else that anybody can think of??

Thanks Toni.

Only crows foot wrench you need is the 10mm for 2 of the LIM sides. If you do not have one I think I would just buy a flex head 10 mm ratcheting wrench.

A 13mm ratcheting wrench might be nice too. Most everything is 8mm, 10, 13, and 15mm. (Most 10 and 13mm.) You may need to get a six point 15mm DEEP socket for the one head bolt that holds the A/C bracket. I busted a cheap one trying to get it loose.
Also various extensions including some pretty long ones to get to the back side exhaust bolts from under the van. I have a pretty complete set of 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" sockets and I used them all at one time or another.

I think for less than the $160 you can get the complete FelPro kit from RockAuto. It comes with new valve stem seals, EGR gaskets, exhaust manifold gaskets, etc. That is what I ordered last month. The head bolts are another ~$28 or so. I also picked up a Denso O2 sensor and new spark plugs and wires too. Most likely you will break 1 or 2 exhaust manifold studs but if you are careful you may not. (I broke 2 and was surprised to get charged $40 by machine shop to get the broken studs out!)

The kit comes with new gaskets for the valve cover bolts but it took me a long time to change them out. They are hard to get out of the old gaskets and I don't know I would change them if I had to do it again unless there was an obvious leak.

The book time is 16 hours. I suspect I took 30-40 - it seemed forever! I do not see how anyone can do it in 16 hours especially if you are going to clean things up as you go. I really recommend taking careful notes as you go and laying the bolts and parts out so you do not have to rely on memory going back in. I use an empty egg cartons and label as A, B, C, etc. as I drop a few bolts in each section while documenting what they are for on my log book.

I too had just done the LIM gasket back in November. For those reading these post it does make sense to go ahead and do the headgaskets if you have any doubt at all. My gaskets at 136k miles were very rusted and in bad shape - despite several coolant chages with Dexcool. I have switched to G05 for the future.

I went back with new AC delco plugs just like the ones that came with the van. They are $6 each but the first set lasted 136k miles and two of them were still in spec. (On the others the small platinium button was gone on the ground electrode making the gap 70 instead of 60. ) I figure these are a change once and forget it deal.

Don't let the funny headed bolt that holds the oil dip tube in place bother you. It has a funny head and I wasted a few hours trying to find a special socket (E8?). I found out a standard socket (I think 1/4 inch or 7mm) worked just about as good.

I hate doing the alternator and that one valve cover bolt on the lower backside that is blocked by the coil pack mounting stud.

I ended up with about $275 in parts and another $200 for the machine shop to go over the heads.

There are a couple of places when you can use someone to help you for a minute or two. Especially going back in with the heads. I had a problem with the rear exhaust pipe flange being in the way - I couldn't see it and could not get the head to set down correctly as I had mounted the rear exhaust manifold on before installation on the block. I scratched up one of the head gaskets a bit but it seems to doing fine after the first 100 miles. It is foolish to take a chance with scratching the new gasket after all of this WORK. Now I can understand why someone said to take the exhaust down-pipe off from the cat as that would have prevented the mounting problem I had.

It might be easier to put the rear head on first and then go under the van and install the rear exhaust manifold and heat shield. I don't know, maybe Merc81 and others will tell you how they did the rear side.

And BTW, I was having the heat gauge going up and down as others describe for sometime. Now it has been rock solid again so hopefully I am good for a while. I am not ready to declare victory until another couple hundred miles are driven though.

Last, you really are not going to be able to see enough coolant in the oil to know of a problem. My oil looked just fine but lab test showed it to be in terrible condition with coolant. The lab called me both times and said get the oil out now! I think that is why the cams are going south as people don't understand how bad the coolant contamination in the oil can get long before you can begin to see it visually.

Wow that's a lot of info. Cressidaadr, that should help some, thanks. I actually wasn't even thinking about the exhaust manifold. If I remember right, I think I left it on the Dodge when I did that one. Not sure on this as I really can't see it anyways. As far as broken studs go, I work a regular job in a machine shop environment, so "should" be able to remove any of the ones I break off and check the heads with a straightedge for flatness.That will save a few $$$$ there.

So you did use the Fel-Pro gaskets then. I'll need to find out what my local NAPA sells.

Yes I read somewhere that crows foots are needed, but I don't know where. And that the LIM is torqued with an inch/lb. wrench and not a ft./lb. one. I do have a pretty good set of tools, but not everything. I usually buy them as I need them, a little at a time.

I expect that this job will probably take me in the neighborhood of 20 to 24 hours. I'm certain that I can't do it in 16 hours. I'll just pick away at it until I get tired of it and then go back and try it again. Especially the first time through, it always takes more time. When I was running Subaru's, I could do a timing belt change in less than 3 hours. The first time it was at least double that. I was thinking I could use my digital camera and take a few shots as I take it apart, maybe that would help some.???

I do believe that I'll switch over to the green type coolant from the Dexcool though. I'm not convinced that in itself is the problem, but I have noticed that the Chevy Aveo that we bought last year has the green stuff, so evidently GM has switched.

Thanks again for input and interest in this project.

Toni.

:cool::cool::cool:
I couldn't have said it better Cressidaadr. You will most certaintly need the 15mm deep well for that front left head bolt, and Cressidaadr is right, you need only obtain the 10mm crow's foot for the angled LIM bolts.

I found that if I remove the exhaust hanger bolts back of the cat. converter when you remove the exhaust at the rear manifold, the whole thing will just lay down out of the way for the head job. Do that first as the engine will roll forward a lot more once the exhaust is free from the engine manifold. You should get a ratchet strap and use it to hook down under the engine on rearward frame member and run forward, between the grill and the radiator and then above the engine to the driver's side engine mount. Its best to have a helper for this part so you can pull the engine way forward (rolling it) and then your helper uses the ratchet strap to hold the engine in place. You will want to remove the exhaust manifolds before the heads I think as the space is tight with them still attached.

Please, take lots of pix. I'm afraid I didn't when I did my heads and wish I had. I do have photos of the engine replacement at http://cemrweb.cemr.wvu.edu/~mathews/venture/
There may be something in there that is helpful.

Merc81, I didn't realize you did an entire motor removal and install. That must have been a project. I considered doing that, but with the rust starting, I opted out. There was a guy in the forums asking about if this could be done, I guess it can, but you'll need a sturdy beam to pick the van up with. I guess I'll just do both LIM and head and be done with it. That should keep it going until I'm through with it. I like the van, but hate the engine and transmission.

Toni.

Actually, I've done 3 engines now. Its really easy with the subframe construction.
Pull the front wheels, the steering shaft, the strut pins and some connectors and the whole drive line comes out--takes about 2 hours tops.

I don't mention it much in the forums as most folks don't have a way to lift the body up, but I don't think I'd do any serious work on this engine with it in the van ever again. Its just way to accessible once you drop it out.

I like the driveline GM uses. The tranny when working shifts like silk--you can't even feel it shifting and the engine has way more power than needed for the van yet still gets 20-22 mph. That's better than any van on the market yet as far as I know.

They had some problems, but by the time the 04's and 05's came out I think those issues were in the past for the most part. Dunno, I can't afford a van that new :smile: but I don't see any posts about 2004s and 2005s.

Merc 81, I haven't totally ruled out replacing the engine. As I am concerned about the cams because I've read that they can delaminate and snap, due to coolant contamination. I do have access to a gantry at work that "should" be sufficient to lift the front end up high enough to remove it. After seeing the pictures that you posted, it looks like it could be done.

I found a used engine for $975, use my intake he says, with a 90 day warranty. It has 76K miles. Would help rule out some of the other problems that I might have going on with cracks between the valve seats, etc.

I can't really sell it or trade it is "as is" right now, what could I get for it? Maybe $500. I'd have to least repair it to make it worth something. I'd rather keep it as I said, I really like it. It rides great. The mileage is pretty decent for that size engine and I agree with you it shifts like silk, when working properly.

I guess I'm at odds with this, I'm not sure what to do right now.

Thanks for your help with this thus far. Toni.

Hmm. Tough choices now. I'd go for the engine replacement regardless--to me the question is do you want to spend a $1000 for a used engine or $2k for a rebuilt with 4 year warranty.
The effort to do the head job along with the cost of rebuilt heads (makes no sense to reinstall 100k + heads in an engine) while you have the uncertainty that the cam may not have much life in it is a pretty large roll of the dice.
I lost that bet twice. :disappoin

Here's the thinking I had. I liked the vans. Body was good, not a factor. The one I drive had all the goodies inside (the olds premiere model) and I knew I couldn't purchase another van that had all the luxuries these have. Gas mileage is great--as good or better than anything out there today. Van handles like a coupe, I love driving it. So, how hard is it going to be to change the engine and how long will the engine last if I do?

I'd go with a new (rebuilt engine). Piece of mind is priceless. I don't worry if I decide to drive to Florida or just across town now.
Your used engine is going to cost you more time to reassemble than a new one since its going to need cleaned, then assembled. New engines don't need cleaned, just assembled. At 76k, that used engine is just now coming into range for head problems, cam problems, etc. You will be doing the LIM now, but who knows if it already needed it or not? Almost any engine but this one I'd feel pretty good with a used engine ( I have one in my '93 s10) but this particular engine needs to have had good care or its going to give you grief.

Yea, I'm being a windbag here, but trying to talk you into the rebuilt. Engine change time is about: 2-3 hours coming out so figure 4 - 6 hours there, then add the time it takes to exchange all the 'stuff' and put the engine all back together. Say another 4 - 6 hours.

This is a weekend job if you have the tools/parts/hoist on hand. If you intend to sell the van, get the used engine, otherwise make yourself feel good and buy a rebuilt.
:p

I'm still weighing it out, but I am leaning towards a repair of the existing engine. For one reason, I really don't have a good way to lift the van up. I do have access to a gantry, but I would still need to get the framework set up out in the driveway. I suppose I could put it together and then pull it up like setting up a wall on a house. Sounds like a lot of work to me. You must have a sturdy beam on a garage or something, in order to do your lifting.

Besides here in Maine we are in the rust belt and I have already done quite a bit of work underneath the doors, on the rocker panels, in order to get it back to inspectable and I am starting to see signs of it again. I figure the van may only have a couple years left in it anyway. I don't think I can, in good conscience, put too much into it at this point. I just need it to hold up until I can get my finances back to where they should be.

I will be back I'm sure with some questions during the process. I'm not going to hurry it at all. I'll use the information that's posted here and I think I can get it done in a reasonable amount of time. Kind of waiting for some warmer weather, as we're a little behind you in the southern climes.

All the best, Toni.