Protecting Decals from TS13 Clearcoat

I just blasted a couple of decals with Tamiya TS13. I have to sand them off and replace them. It's just lucky that they're in an easy-to-sand location and I have extras.

I've never had a problem with clear coating decals before, but I've heard other modelers complain about trouble with TS13. These decals survived a couple of "mist coats" nicely, but when I applied a wet final coat, all hell broke lose. The rest survived, but two decals made by Cartograf were ruined.

For my next model, I'm planning to try another brand of clear coat. But I need to finish this car with Tamiya or I could run into compatibility problems. With no more spares, this will be my last chance, so:

Aside from a) not clear coating them, or b) giving them only a dry mist-coat, is there anything I can do to protect my replacement decals from the same fate?

Ddms

I've used Mr Hobby Top Coat (Gloss) over TS paints with no compatibility problem.

Some people also liked to use Future floor polish over decals with successes. It depends on the size of decals, but Future can easily be drybrushed as well.

Don't apply wet coats- it's pretty simple.

Apply TS13 in mist coats, and leave plenty of time (1-2 hours) between coats. After you have several mist coats built up, you can move on to heavier mist coats. But if you spray it on wet, you're asking for trouble. It's not the sort of thing you do in one session. It's wise not to try to do it all in one day (or even in one weekend). It's not hard, but it really takes some patience. Like modeling itself. ;)

Throw the TS-13 in the bin and use another clear. Although I know that some people swear by the stuff and get great results, I've ruined more models than I care to mention with it and as such will never use it again. In my opinion it's just too 'hot' and burns the decals every time. I can't be waiting and waiting, applying mist coats etc. It's easier with Zero 1K or 2K, Finishers Auto Clear or Gunze Top Coat and your decals will not melt.

Throw the TS-13 in the bin and use another clear. Although I know that some people swear by the stuff and get great results, I've ruined more models than I care to mention with it and as such will never use it again. In my opinion it's just too 'hot' and burns the decals every time. I can't be waiting and waiting, applying mist coats etc. It's easier with Zero 1K or 2K, Finishers Auto Clear or Gunze Top Coat and your decals will not melt.

What about UPOL and Mr. Hobby?

I'll need to coat the car again after I replace the decals. Will those all be okay over the TS?

Ddms

is ts-13 the only one that has this problem of melting decals? :confused:

you could try and do a couple of coats of ts-79 (semi gloss clear) build up a protective layer let it set and then go to the ts-13 over that. i havent tried this but it might work. it would work like a protective layer.

what ever you decide to do it would be a good idea to paint some scrap peaces you have laying around. i do this a lot, i have a few spare kits laying around that i bought more for parts than the kit it self. ill take the body prep and paint the exact same way that i plan to with whatever project that i am working on. as i do each step it lets me see how everything reacts with one and another. i have saved a lot of models by doing it like this.
try this and if you have some spare decals as well you could lay those down and you can try doing a ts-79 in between the decal and the ts-13.

hope this helps. good luck

I don't know for certain, but I've heard someone somewhere say that the TS-79 and TS-80 are just as hot as the TS-13 - so be careful if you try this!

Don't apply wet coats use TS13 - it's pretty simple.
:D
Use Mr Hobby Top Coat instead and you won't have any problems and you will have all the shine you could wish for. Great clear, decal safe, polishes well (although I have never needed to polish it).

Some people also liked to use Future floor polish over decals with successes.
Funnily enough, I am experimenting by using Future(Klear) on my current build after seeing the great results that Sean gets with it.

I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, if you look at the $/effect ratio I have to say it's a winner! It costs next to nothing and the results were, to be honest, much better than I expected.

On the other hand, if I compare the quality of effect and experience of using it to my favorite clear to date (Mr Hobby Top Coat), then Mr Hobby wins hands down.

My biggest issue with it is that when I brushed it on, the effect was far from what I have seen others achieve (simply, I can't do it that well). Airbrushing it on was much easier but the risk of runs is high and I had to sand some away on a couple of places. However, I think that with a little practice, I could learn to get a "feel" for it. Because coats are somewhat thinner than with eg Top Coat, you need to apply a few more with Future IMO

Net opinion: Definitely a useful thing to have in the paint armory but not for use on every occasion. Now I need to try and find another bottle of the stuff cos it's not sold here in Poland at all.

Finally, I highly and strongly recommend that you don't buy the next sexy looking kit you see on eBay but instead re-allocate that money and buy a dehydrator. I promise that you will thank me for the suggestion ;)
To paraphrase MasterCard: Dehydrator = 20-30euros; increased modleling pleasure = priceless :):)

As with all clear coats known to be hot, you should always spray light, mist coats first. This lays the least amount of clear onto the decals first and with several coats, builds up a thick enough barrier to allow you to spray more heavily. If you use clear coats that are known to be safe, then you can be more relaxed when spraying. If you're not sure, it's always good practice to spray on light coats first anyways.

As with all clear coats known to be hot, you should always spray light, mist coats first.

That's always worked for me in the past. But this time, the mist coats failed to protect the decals, and... KERBLOOIE! :crying:

The ruined decals are Cartograf; the rest are Renaissance. Seems like there's a lesson there also. But I'm not sure how much good it will do; we don't often have a choice of decal manufacturers for the same kit.

I can get Mr. Hobby at my LHS, but I'd have to order the others on-line. So it looks like Mr. Hobby gets the nod. (I really like their putty, by the way, so this could be a trend.)

Ddms

I´ve been there, so I can understand the pain and disappointment you´re going through. I´d go with what MPWR said. Only apply mist coats and take your time - even days are quite a short period of time, when you take into consideration that you would need to redo all the work...

Robert

Two mist coats aren't enough to protect the decals, but four mist coat + four semi-wet will do. No full wet coat necessary, like MPWR suggested.

What about UPOL and Mr. Hobby?

I'll need to coat the car again after I replace the decals. Will those all be okay over the TS?

Ddms

Mr. Clear is good, I like Zero's clear also. I don't ever bother with Tamiya clear, their colors and primers are awesome, but the clear blows

Progress Report:

I was able to easily remove the damaged decals with Scotch tape - despite the fact that they'd been cleared. So I sanded the area lightly, put on new decals, and I'm once again ready to give the car its final clearcoat(s).

Checked my LHS for Mr. Hobby Clear. I knew they carried it, but had never checked the price. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Wow - $17 for a medium-size spray can! Decided to try online. Steve Noble mentioned UPOL as preferable to Tamiya TS13, so I bought two cans for $5 each, plus about $8 shipping, from Sam Ditchek & Sons. Two for the price of one, even including shipping.

It probably won't be here for a week. I'll use the break to clean up my work area and organize some stuff. Maybe even start another kit.

Now I'm just hoping the UPOL won't react with the TS13 that's already on the car. As always, I'll start with a couple of mist coats.

Ddms

No one has mentioned this so here goes. From my own experience I've noticed that ALL lacquer-based clears can be detrimental to the well being of my decals.

There are generally 4 types of paint based on the solvent used to maintain the color and binder in a liquid state: lacquer, acrylic, enamel, and polyurethane (2k).

In my experience it is the lacquer solvent that damages the decal, not the clear itself. Thats why lacquer based TS-17/79/80 all damage decals but Tamiya's other clear, acrylic based X-22 is harmless. (Future is basically watered down X-22 BTW.) Testors/Model Master spray-can clears are also lacquer-based and can curdle decals instantly.

I have found DuPont's 2K clear is harmless and rock hard. It's what I prefer. I've never tried enamel clears. Be careful, read the labels and experiment with extra decals if not sure.

No doubt some guys have successfully avoided sudden decal death through light misting lacquer clears but they're successful by exposing the decal to as little lacquer thinner as possible and taking a risk every time they do it. Besides, it takes longer and who wants to keep shooting and sanding dull misty finishes?

Lacquers are designed to melt the previous dry layer so they combine seemlessly. The paint becomes one big coat so you don't get rings when color sanding through layers like with enamels. Thats why the solvents are "hot". I say avoid anything that looks or smells like lacquer when working with decals. There are much better alternatives. You should be ok shooting acrylics or 2k over a previous layer of lacquer clear but, again, test in an inconspicuous place.

I have found DuPont's 2K clear is harmless and rock hard.

I've used it. It's great stuff if you want ultra super gloss, but I build old race cars, and they don't want to be that shiny. It's also really hard to strip off, and multiple coats don't blend into that single coating like lacquer does. Because of that characteristic, the lacquers are easy to patch. As you suggested, you get a seamless repair. But in my experience, there's no patching urethane. If you screw up, you have to repaint the whole car.

But your message does raise the excellent point that I may have thinned the TS13 too much. I like thin lacquer because it's easy to spray and it produces less paint build-up and less orange peel. But maybe I overdid it this time.

Of course, the urethanes are thinned too, with UR40 - at least that's the reducer that my auto paint supplier recommends, and it's what I use for urethane base coats. I don't know what UR40 is, chemically speaking, but it smells and acts a lot like lacquer thinner. It's my guess that if you thin urethane (like Dupont, PPG and Zero) way down with UR40, it will eat decals just like TS13 thinned way down with lacquer thinner.

Synthetic lacquers are so good in so many ways that I'm inclined to try work around the decal issue. Seems like the trick is to find the right consistency - thick enough to keep from dissolving the decals; thin enough to minimize OP. Assuming I don't just shoot the UPOL straight out of the can, that's what I'll shoot for :smooch: on the next go-round.

Ddms

Everyone has a preference based on experiences, convenience and so on. The main thing I hoped to convey in my post is that these paints can be categorized into families based on their chemistry. Once you know the type you can make some predictions about how they will behave on models and decals and when combined with one another.

I have never used U-POL 1k but the pic SteveNoble posted shows that it is an acrylic paint so it shouldn't eat your decals even sprayed heavy in a 1:1 ratio like he suggested. Mr. Hobby Aqueous is also an acrylic and shouldn't hurt decals. But as always test first any time you try something new! They all have personalities.

I use DuPont ChromaClear 2K because it looks great and is durable. I shoot it with reducer 1:1 also and have never had a problem with decals. It is very shiney and I hardly have to polish at all when I shoot it reduced that thin. But it's fairly expensive and poisonous as hell (harmless to decals but can kill people!) because of isocyanates so a respirator is required. I use an old scuba tank and am sure I look ridiculous spraying.

Good luck.

I have never used U-POL 1k but the pic Steve Noble posted shows that it is an acrylic paint so it shouldn't eat your decals even sprayed heavy in a 1:1 ratio like he suggested. Mr. Hobby Aqueous is also an acrylic and shouldn't hurt decals. But as always test first any time you try something new! They all have personalities.

It is an acrylic but more auto acrylic not like say Tamiya acrylic (water based) It's a lot stronger in both smell and potency, but essentially no where near as harmful to decals as the Tamiya TS-13 Clear. It's also a bit stronger than the 2K urethane clears, I would say. Maybe still go easy on the very heavy coats and build it up slowly.

How about you just don't bother putting clear over your decals? Problem solved. Do they clear over sponsor signs and decals on real cars? I think not. It looks very toy-like and fake to me. Ok, ok, some decals should be cleared - decals that are simulating base-coat paints, maybe some others. And it protects them, but so should future or wax (I hope). Anyway, I know this is a religious issue, and many here vehemently disagree with this, and I'll probably end up chaning my mind for all I know, but it's worth keeping an open mind. I'll just say that I think well applied decals look very realistic with no clear over them - they look like they're painted on.

Mark, you are right. In many cases, the decals look much better if they are not cleared, but the problem is that this decals need a protection, if you have older kits you will understand why! The decals will yellow in time or they could simply crack over years! It's happened to me and i try to seal all the decals in my future projects equal if they are cars or airplains...

But regarding this topic, i really like very much Tamiya products, but this TS 13 is a monster! It eats not just the decals, sometimes attacks also the painting! I don't buy this stuff anymore, i go better with GS Mr. Hobby Top Coat or Tamiya X 22 acrilic clear. I am experimenting now also with automotive clear with hardener ( i think is a Dupont 2 K) and i am surpprised over the results. I must to make some test especially with Cartograf decals because this looks to be one of the most fragil on the market.

Regards,

How about you just don't bother putting clear over your decals? Problem solved.

It's definitely an option for future models. You're right; the decals on 1:1 race cars aren't clear coated. I have to admit, though, that I like the uniform, finished look of a model that's been completely cleared, even though that's not 100% accurate.

Right now my problem is to finish this car, and I don't really have a choice. Most of its decals are already cleared.

I made a mistake and ordered UPOL clear lacquer in spray cans - I hadn't seen Steve's photos of the acrylic. (Rats! But on the other hand, the UPOL acrylic might not have blended very well with the TS13 syn lacquer that's already on the car.) I usually decant and thin TS13, but I'm thinking that excessive lacquer thinner was what dissolved the Cartograf decals. I'm also thinking I should wait overnight before applying successive coats. Maybe that will give the first coat a chance to cure a bit and protect the decals from the next onslaught.

So my inclination at this point is to spray the UPOL in mist coats directly from the can.

Ddms

Received the two big 500 ml spray cans of U-POL Clearcoat from Sam Ditchek & Sons. Cost was $4.95 a can; totaling $18, including shipping via USPS. This is U-POL's 0804 synthetic lacquer, not the acrylic that Steve Noble mentioned. It's made in the UK.

[/URL][url]http://yhst-13811118617756.stores.yahoo.net/uppocanae.html (http://yhst-13811118617756.stores.yahoo.net/uppocanae.html)

So far I've sprayed two light coats directly from the can. It went over the Tamiya TS coat perfectly, with no decal problems whatsoever - whew! The nozzle is excellent - it puts out a very fine spray, almost a fog. I waited overnight before the second coat. Since I sprayed these coats light and dry, there's some fine orange peel.

I'll apply a wetter final coat tomorrow. Hopefully, that will produce even less orange peel. Even now, the OP is so fine that Tamiya Coarse Compound should do the trick with no need to wet-sand it. I'll get back to you in a few days about the polishing stage. As usual, I'm nervous about burning through the clear and ruining either the base coat or the decals.

Maybe I'll post some pix at that point. This 917 car body sure looks pretty in all its Gulf Oil splendor.

Ddms