Lower and upper intake manifold gasket, help!

I have a 97 GT, and I recently had a shop look at my car because it was leaking coolant and they found I have bad LIM and UIM gaskets. They want to charge me over 1k for the job, and since I have no job, I don't got money. SO, how could I go about doing this myself? I can most likely get what I'll need but I just have really no idea how to do it, but I need to. So could any one give me some advice? Thanks

Here's a video of some guys working on an L67 supercharged version of your engine. You wouldn't have a supercharger, but an upper intake manifold though:
http://www.cpaclubgp.com/misc/lim-gasket.html

Here's my experience with replacing my gaskets about 3 1/2 years ago:
http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=2714720&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&language=&tmode=&smode=&s=#2714720

Here's a link to a how-to:
http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c15280217c80

Before blaming the gaskets, take a look inside the UIM thru the throttlebody and see if you see any coolant inside there, if so, the UIM is probably leaking coolant around the EGR, kind've a common issue, with aftermarket manifolds available to replace the entire UIM. You can even find 'em on eBay for not too much $$ (vs GM prices).

Here's a link to available UIMs:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=701325

If you decide to replace the LIM gaskets, here's a link to the GM aluminum LIM gaskets which are superior to the old plastic ones:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=700914

Let us know how it goes or if you need further help :).

Here's a link to a how-to:
http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c15280217c80



Good post. However, on the Autozone repair guides suggestion be careful because the UIM and LIM bolt torque figures are erroneous.

To the OP. Just send me a PM message with your email address and I'll provide a UIM/LIM PDF file that many members use or find helpful.

I'm working on a tech procedure for our Tips & Maintenance subforum and will have plenty of pics. Just hard to find time and it is tedious.

With Bob's procedure and less than $200, you should be back on the road in a couple of days. Be sure to have all your parts together, especially that nasty black plastic elbow. I labeled all my connectors and hoses with a Silver Sharpie and that made it easier for me since I'm not a real mechanic; although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.

Ha I had the same idea about labeling everything. But thanks guys for the info, and >$200 beats $1300 at a shop. I'm kinda nervous though cause I haven't done anything like taking apart the engine, but it seems pretty simple. Wish me luck I guess, I'll let you guys know

56K WARNING

:useless:

Some pics to give you an idea of the work. I've done so many of these job I don't even mark the connectors anymore. :uhoh:.....:lol: But for the first timer it is a good idea to do so.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/DSC02561-1.jpg


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/DSC02564.jpg


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/DSC02575-1.jpg


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/DSC02576.jpg
UIM removed


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/DSC02570.jpg
FelPro UIM gasket kit with throttle body gasket


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/DSC02571.jpg
Felpro UIM gasket installed


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/DSC02593.jpg
New Felpro LIM port and end seal gaskets. Use hi-temp RTV silicone sealant at 4 corners. Pinned gaskets.

Bob, your not going to be in the MN area anytime soon are you?

I'd pay you to help me out replace my LIM gasket and the g/f's 3100 LIM gasket. I've done enough of them, I'm just so sick of the work. (when it rains it pours)

I'm also considering a new set of radiator hoses and a new waterpump on my car at the same time I put new gaskets in. Probably a good idea isnt it?

Bob, your not going to be in the MN area anytime soon are you?

I'd pay you to help me out replace my LIM gasket and the g/f's 3100 LIM gasket. I've done enough of them, I'm just so sick of the work. (when it rains it pours)

I'm also considering a new set of radiator hoses and a new waterpump on my car at the same time I put new gaskets in. Probably a good idea isnt it?

Hi Tim,

No sorry. I wish I could though. However, I will be in New York for a few weeks in May but I guess that is not close enough. To be honest with you so am I. Still a PITA of a job.

We had a member about 3 years ago (nice looking female) :naughty: asked me to help mod her GTP and pay me but I had to refuse due to the job, wife, etc. :uhoh:.....:lol:

New radiator hoses is a good idea. Other than an obvious leak way to tell when to replace is when you remove look inside and see if any crud is built up. Also, stay with the OE GM/Delco hoses. The aftermarket brands like Goodyear is cheaper but the preform is not right and the hoses appear to be smaller in diameter. I wasted some money on them but wound up going with the GM ones. Same is applicable to the heater hoses.

BTW - I would only replace the water pump if proven bad.

SO, how could I go about doing this myself? I can most likely get what I'll need but I just have really no idea how to do it, but I need to. So could any one give me some advice?
Best advise is take your time. Whenever I do a job for the first time I either use a video camera or I write everything down in the order I take it off. That way you will know exactly how it goes back together in the right order. Something I've been doing for 25 yrs now. You can never be to careful. read up on it as much as you can from different manuals, not just one. Everyone says a six-pack helps but NOT on the first time doing it yourself. Good luck, you can do it.

Your car didn't overheat did it? You have to make sure the plastic plenum runners didn't warp or it will still leak.

Anyone with a '95-'98 GM car with the NA SII 3800 engine should replace the OE UIM by default. The replacement UIMs whether GM or aftermarket like Dorman or APN have the better design and are less prone to the EGR stovepipe meltdown issue. Also, the kits come with a modified EGR stovepipe which is easy to install and all gaskets. GM modified the UIM and LIM/EGR stovepipe in '99 and up models.

Hi Tim,

No sorry. I wish I could though. However, I will be in New York for a few weeks in May but I guess that is not close enough. To be honest with you so am I. Still a PITA of a job.

We had a member about 3 years ago (nice looking female) :naughty: asked me to help mod her GTP and pay me but I had to refuse due to the job, wife, etc. :uhoh:.....:lol:

New radiator hoses is a good idea. Other than an obvious leak way to tell when to replace is when you remove look inside and see if any crud is built up. Also, stay with the OE GM/Delco hoses. The aftermarket brands like Goodyear is cheaper but the preform is not right and the hoses appear to be smaller in diameter. I wasted some money on them but wound up going with the GM ones. Same is applicable to the heater hoses.

BTW - I would only replace the water pump if proven bad.

Very good to know about the hoses!

Just wondering, why not replace the waterpump at the same time? There is nothing worse than finishing up an engine teardown only to mysteriously be losing coolant.

If it were me and did all that work, I would replace the water pump at the same time. There are not that expensive.

If it were me and did all that work, I would replace the water pump at the same time. There are not that expensive.
I would defanetly change the water pump. When I tear apart something like this I ALWAYS change everything I can, as long as I can afford it. You said your money is tight but, it would REALLY suck if you get this all done and the water pump goes a week later. Take it from experience,:banghead: it's alot cheaper and easier to replace it now, it's already gonna be off.

Just wondering, why not replace the waterpump at the same time? There is nothing worse than finishing up an engine teardown only to mysteriously be losing coolant.

It is up to you Tim. It is your car. I do not replace parts just for the hell of it unless I see an obvious issue with it or proven bad. Bad waterpumps give off a noise or leak so if none of the above why replace it? Unless it is broken why fix it? Under that theory why not just replace everything?

BTW - All my GM cars still have the original water pumps so I do not see the component as a high failure item. How old is my GTP waterpump? Almost 12 years old now? You see what I am getting at.

I agree with changing the water pump (and t-stat too). If you're over 80k miles, your water pump is on borrowed time (Bob, you're been lucky). Replace it while the other stuff is out of the way. On your GTP, the p/st pump has to be unbolted and moved out of the way, as the pulley blocks access to one of the water pump bolts.

I don't see any factual anecdotal data that supports any premise or theory of arbitrarily replacing the water pump regardless of mileage. :grinno:

The radiator or heater core will probably crap out way before the water pump so why not just replace those parts?

Still it doesn't make sense to me. That is my story and I am sticking to it. :lol:

because the heater core is bitch to get to, :lol:

On the water pump, here's the story. This is why companies shouldn't let the bean counters have total control and a major reason why GM is in trouble.

On the old Vin-L 3800, the water pump was the highest failure part by a wide margin. When GM revised the 3800 to the Vin-K, the car guy engineers rerouted the serp belt to reduce the load on the water pump by 60% to alleviate this issue. Well, the bean counters got a hold of this, and their engineers decided to redesign the waterpump with a bearing that was 55% weaker that the previous one basically creating an engineering wash. Guess what part is still a top 5 failure part on the 3800? you guessed it.....the water pump. And here's the kicker, the weaker bearing saved GM $0.22 per car. GM's brass are idiots!

That is good to know Rich and typical.

But how many water pump failures are due to the bearing versus seals?. The use of Dex-cool probably had something to do with it. Dex-cool wasn't around with the VIN "L" 3800 engines either. IMO there is no question Dex-cool is better for water pump seals and the bearing due to superior lubrication qualities. The one water pump failure that I know of personally and helped the owner do on a SII 3800 engine was after the owner switched over to the green EL antifreeze after getting advice to get rid of the Dex-cool. It was just a leak and the pump made no noise.

BTW - The radiator started leaking months later and we had to replace that too. :rolleyes:

My pump on a 97 GP went out at around 75k miles. It started to make grinding noises so I know it was time to replace the water pump. At least for me it was a pain to replace. Had a hard time getting at the one bolt that was behind the power steering pump.

My '97 GTP has 96K miles and is subject to more abuse and higher rpms than the typical daily driver and plus it was a daily driver for many years before I decided to mod it and start drag racing. No issues with the water pump and I do not plan on replacing it until it fails. With these so called hard economic times I'll lose my beer budget. :lol:

Also, my '01 Regal GS has over 75K miles and wife's '99 Regal LS has 138K miles still with the original water pumps. Like Rich said I guess I am lucky. :grinyes:

Bob, I guess you are lucky. (With water pumps.) Maybe you have other parts that break. But some people, me included, don't want to take that chance. For $40, why not change it? It's not gonna break the bank. It's alot cheaper now while it's already off. I guess it's personal preference, no need to argue.

Bob, I guess you are lucky. (With water pumps.) Maybe you have other parts that break. But some people, me included, don't want to take that chance. For $40, why not change it? It's not gonna break the bank. It's alot cheaper now while it's already off. I guess it's personal preference, no need to argue.

$40 for aftermarket (rebuild) which brings us to another issue. If you check the prices of the Delco replacement water pumps GM list is around $158. Maybe $80 from an AC Delco supplier with a heavy discount, if you are lucky.

Between using an aftermarket water pump and keeping a known good water pump I'll keep the known good one.

And the argument/debate continues. Note: This is a discussion forum and no one that has weighed-in has convinced me why parts should be replaced just for the hell of it. :rolleyes:

$40 for aftermarket (rebuild) which brings us to another issue. If you check the prices of the Delco replacement water pumps GM list is around $158. Maybe $80 from an AC Delco supplier with a heavy discount, if you are lucky.

Between using an aftermarket water pump and keeping a known good water pump I'll keep the known good one.

And the argument/debate continues. Note: This is a discussion forum and no one that has weighed-in has convinced me why parts should be replaced just for the hell of it. :rolleyes:

I would have to agree with you on the fact that aftermarket really really sucks. I am so pissed off at rockauto now its not funny. A while back I replaced my struts (with delco's from the dealership) but got cheapo mounts and load bearings. Well, when it started to get cold they started to make A LOT of noise. So, last summer I ordered stut mounts and load bearings from rockauto, (delco ones, my bill was about 200 bucks). So when they came, I tore my front end apart AGAIN, put these parts in, and once I opened the box, I noticed that the load bearings appeared similiar to the $hitty monroe ones that I was replacing. Nonetheless since they came in an ac-delco box, I put them in there. Ever since winter time and the temp has been below 50 degrees, my once again $hitty strut load bearings are making noise. (I have a feeling rockauto put junky monroe ones in ac-delco boxes).

Not to mention my junky aftermarket power steering lines. Pshhhh, the old ones from the factory that I took off were way better. Now I'll have to replace them again becuase I just can't stand the noise they make.

......what else? Oh yeah, also the strut mounts I ordered from rockauto. Both were the same part number, both came in the same ac-delco box, but it wasnt untill I got the struts all together that I noticed one was slightly different than the other.... (explain that rockauto) Dont think I'll be shopping there again.

The only situation i would call a pump that has not failed yet is when i'm replacing a timing belt that drives the pump and it saves the customer money to replace it now,but that does not affect the 3800 of course. I'm with Bob on this one tho i see no reason to replace a 3800 pump for the sake of it. I have the unfotunate privalige of working with some highly absued 3800 powered taxis and have seen them with 250,000 km on them and still original.

$40 for aftermarket (rebuild) which brings us to another issue. If you check the prices of the Delco replacement water pumps GM list is around $158. Maybe $80 from an AC Delco supplier with a heavy discount, if you are lucky.
And the argument/debate continues. Note: This is a discussion forum and no one that has weighed-in has convinced me why parts should be replaced just for the hell of it. :rolleyes:

Ok $70 for AC Delco, that's still cheaper now than a few weeks or maybe 6 months. Who knows? :dunno: Nobody. We're ALL just giving him what he asked for, ADVICE. Noone has to convince YOU, it's HIS car. :) He'll take the advice he wants to, like I said, personal preference.

Ok $70 for AC Delco, that's still cheaper now than a few weeks or maybe 6 months. Who knows? :dunno: Nobody. We're ALL just giving him what he asked for, ADVICE. Noone has to convince YOU, it's HIS car. :) He'll take the advice he wants to, like I said, personal preference.

Actually Tim (tblake) consults me quite often by PM messaging. Most of us regulars at this forum do that quite frequently and know one another. Plus he is one of our forum Advisors appointed by the Moderating staff.

I just hate to see him waste money when he has many other unresolved issues and the money would be best served by going to those issues. That is all.

Actually you do have to convince me since as a member of the Moderating staff I am responsible for the content in this forum. :wink:

And that includes controlling the discussion so both or all views are heard.

It is up to you Tim. It is your car. I do not replace parts just for the hell of it unless I see an obvious issue with it or proven bad. Bad waterpumps give off a noise or leak so if none of the above why replace it? Unless it is broken why fix it? Under that theory why not just replace everything?

BTW - All my GM cars still have the original water pumps so I do not see the component as a high failure item. How old is my GTP waterpump? Almost 12 years old now? You see what I am getting at.

I tend to agree, I only replace items as they fail. In my experience with working with cars over the last 23 years or so, usually waterpumps don't fail in dramatic fashion but instead they tend to give plenty of notice like bearing noise or small amounts of coolant coming out the weep hole. I have replaced a few "good" waterpumps on cars that had them buried in with the timing belt, however. Ok, I digress on this topic.
So far as the post above related to new hoses being smaller than the original old hoses, keep in mind that as hoses age, they tend to swell up and look bigger. On my GTP, I installed Gates heater hoses and did not have any issue with installing them, but I did go with GM rad. hoses as I had no choice at the time. I did in the past install Goodyear hoses on other makes of cars w/o any issues. I did have issues, however, installing the super cheap brands of hoses, they only seemed to last about 2-4 years before looking really ugly. Now I digress & am running away from this topic :runaround:.... :biggrin:.

Where exactly is the weep hole on the L67 waterpump?

Good info on the hoses. Mine dont look bad so I dont think I'll be replacing them.

Where exactly is the weep hole on the L67 waterpump?

Tim, the weep hole is located on the bottom of the water pump snout, offset to the left about an inch or so referencing if you are looking straight down at it. To see it best to remove the pump pulley. If you have coolant leaking out of the weep hole you will know it.

Other possible sources of leaks would be the pump to cover gasket.

Also, take note there are 8 bolts combination of short and long. Follow proper torquing. Technically since the stuff is aluminum you are supposed to use a torque angle meter on these bolts. When you install the pump bolts you are supposed to use a torque angle meter to finish torquing the bolts. Long bolts to 15 lb-ft and then plus 40 degrees. The short bolts to 11 lb-ft plus 80 degrees. Otherwise you will be doing the job all over again.

Also, keep in mind Murphy's Law. What can go wrong will go wrong. :lol:

what is the saying again? oh yeah...if it aint broken dont fix it :)

Actually Tim (tblake) consults me quite often by PM messaging. Most of us regulars at this forum do that quite frequently and know one another. Plus he is one of our forum Advisors appointed by the Moderating staff.

I just hate to see him waste money when he has many other unresolved issues and the money would be best served by going to those issues. That is all.
:sorry: I didn't realize it was Tim who asked the question about changing the water pump. I thought it was Unknown7 (the one who started the thread) I was just thinking of HIS inexperience with the mechanics so if he changed it now, while already in there, he wouldn't have to take it all apart again IF it failed in the near future. Plus IIRC his car has almost 200k on it.
I don't know anything about Tim's car. (My bad!!!):redface:

No worries. I shouldn't have hijacked this thread. My Bad.

No worries. I shouldn't have hijacked this thread. My Bad.

It is no big deal Tim. We're just one big happy family. :lol:

And just for our edification what is the final verdict?

It is no big deal Tim. We're just one big happy family. :lol:

And just for our edification what is the final verdict?

Final Verdict? I think I'll leave the stock one for the time being. We all know my track record for aftermarket replacement parts. Besides I need to got the PS noise/strut mounts figured out, and as of 7am this morning, the GTP is in the body shop to have some "Minnesota Cancer" repaired before it spreads any farther.

I've never seen anything like it guys, I bought the car almost 3 years ago with 70,000 miles on it. It actually came from kansas and didnt have a spec of rust on it or under it. 3 Years later being drive through 3 Minnesota winters, Its started to cancer out above the passenger rear wheel well. Not to mention the supbrame, my calipers, and rotors are all that ugly rust color.

Final Verdict? I think I'll leave the stock one for the time being. We all know my track record for aftermarket replacement parts. Besides I need to got the PS noise/strut mounts figured out, and as of 7am this morning, the GTP is in the body shop to have some "Minnesota Cancer" repaired before it spreads any farther.

Good decision for now Tim. Yeah it is sad on the rust situation. Was this vehicle ever in an accident? It doesn't make any difference where you live but rust is common on the brake components. We get it down here. You can paint the calipers and bracket. On the rotors check this out. Raybestos Advanced Technology. They come with black protective coating in the vane area and on the part that goes on the hub. I got a set of 4 for my Regal GS along with Performance Friction Carbon Metallic pads. It is time for new brakes. Good cost too. BTW - Brakes being replaced are the original GM. Over 70K miles. :grinyes:


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/DSC05697.jpg
Raybestos AT Rear Rotor

BOB, I CANT BELEIVE IT!

I was going to do my breaks again this summer becuase of a slight pulsation and heavy rust on the rotors. I was just going to ask if there where any brands of rotors that come like the one you have pictured above.

You just saved me a question....

Are they spendy? I was thinking about painting my calipers at the same time (black or silver).

It is up to you Tim. It is your car. I do not replace parts just for the hell of it unless I see an obvious issue with it or proven bad. Bad waterpumps give off a noise or leak so if none of the above why replace it? Unless it is broken why fix it? Under that theory why not just replace everything?

BTW - All my GM cars still have the original water pumps so I do not see the component as a high failure item. How old is my GTP waterpump? Almost 12 years old now? You see what I am getting at.
Mine has been replaced twice. On parts that are inexpensive, I will replace if it requires more than a couple hours work if I had to otherwise repair it. I figure it should prolong the time and save me aggravation.

IThe 3800 waterpump isnt in such a bad spot. I have seen a lot worse (OHC motors where the pump is driven off the timing belt). But it sure isnt as easy to access as the 3100. (GM did get something right on that motor) I shouldn't be so cruel.

When I did my water pump on my 3800 GP it took me 2 days to get it back together. Was having a lot of trouble getting the power steering mounting screw back in. Beside my hands are big so I skin my knuckles all the time.

When I did my water pump on my 3800 GP it took me 2 days to get it back together. Was having a lot of trouble getting the power steering mounting screw back in. Beside my hands are big so I skin my knuckles all the time.
I figured out how to do it after I had taken the power steering pump off. Take one bolt out and loosen the other and let the pump shift over. That was my biggest problem when I did mine.

You just saved me a question....

Are they spendy? I was thinking about painting my calipers at the same time (black or silver).

No Tim. $46 for the front and $42 for the rear.

:rolleyes:

Back to the subject of water pumps. On some of these replies it goes to show you that some people are their own problem when doing DIY work. :tongue: I wonder how many actually torqued the pump down correctly as I mentioned in my prior replies.

When you have a water pump failure obviously you replace it and I have no issues with that. Replacing known good parts capriciously and arbitrarily is what I do not agree with. If we were to accept and apply that theory as good maintenance practice then we are all in trouble or time to sell it or trade it in. That is all I have to say. The rest of you can continue to ramble on. :shakehead

Just to clarify, when I mentioned replacing the water pump, I assumed Tim inspected it and it was questionable. I do agree with Bob that you don't just change parts if there is no evidence to support doing so.

That being said, I have seen twice where a water pump with just a couple of thousandths free play on the pulley that wasn't leaking or making noise failed immediately after a UIM job, probably due to it being the weak link in a now sealed and properly pressurized cooling system. That is why I originally suggested changing it.

sorry this an old post, but I finally got to doing the job, the gaskets were indeed shot, and I almost lost a socket in the air intake, but almost everything went well. however when I start the car, it has a really lumpy idle like it jerks the car. It seems like a misfire, and I'm 99.9% positive I hooked the spark plugs right. however I ended up losing some egr/evap hoses. could that cause it? Any body have any suggestions?

Losing hoses? You mean broken or missing? That could cause a vacuum leak which could cause a poor idle and other issues. Get 'em replaced as soon as possible.


And double check the ignition wires and make sure they go to the right cylinders from the coils.

Firing order SII 3800 engine:
1-6-5-4-3-2

Front bank, left to right 1, 3, 5
Rear bank, left to right 2, 4, 6.

Coils:
top coil: 6/3
Middle coil: 2/5
Bottom coil: 4/1

Bob, maybe he accidently dropped a hose inside... HA HA

How did you end up fishing that socket out of there? Magnet?

I ghetto rigged a a magnet onto a power cord with some epoxy lol. and no im pretty sure I got everything out. Where can I get just like all of the evap/egr hoses, because there's a few missing and I might as well just replace all of them. would autozone or oreily or another parts store be likely to carry these?

I was just kidding on the "fell inside" crack.

Maybe in the dorman HELP section will have what you need. Or else a junkyard is going to be your best bet.