Serious Problems?Serious Problem?

Ok I have a 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP 3800 SC 204,000miles. Here's what's going on. Ok about a week ago I noticed the car was mis-firing and my exhaust leak was getting worse(which the exhaust leak was from the back exhaust manifold)(Orignally) well as the week went by I could drive the car normally without flooring it to the floor-board and it would shift fine but still have a mis-fire. But when I floored it, it would almost red-line before it shifted it would go right in the middle of the orange, before it would shift and as it was trying to shift it was making a kind of metal rubbing metal sound. So, I went ahead and changed the spark plugs and I put Autolite 606's in it as before I was running them and found that they lasted longer in this car, compared to all the others I've tried. I drive it and still the same problem with the shifting when I floored it. So, I went ahead and bought a OEM Filter and gasket and transmission fluid. I took off the transmission pan and cleaned everything up and replaced the filter. But as I was changing the transmission filter I noticed right by it you could see alittle into the transmission, like a metal band or ring. Right where this metal band or ring is there is like a pin type thing that I guess pushes the band together. The problem with this is that one and only band you can see thats by that pin that's in plain view site, looks to me that it is broke. It's in 2 different pieces from what I can see. But its held in there by something. Ok Im going to try and explain what it looks like starting from the right there is a pin that pushes in and out and then theres a gap and there is a part of a metal band and then another gap and to the other side of the band.Atleast from what I can tell. I can take both of the same bands and push them together with screw drivers and still cant get them to touch. Now here is my question! Is there suppose to be a gap there? I took pictures of it and took my phone to a transmission shop and they said that there is suppose to be gaps on the same band that doesnt connect. So, I believed them and put the transmission pan back on and put transmission fluid back in it. I took it for a test drive and was still doing the same thing as before but this time the motor was bogging down and wanted to die and I could floor it and it was making all kinds of noise. So, I went back home and re-checked my plugs and wires and they all seem to be fine. But as I got to looking, it looks as if my stock front exhaust manifold is cracked all the way around by the I think number 3 cyclinder. So, I went ahead and took pictures of it and I decided to go ahead and put my orginal PCM back in the car thinking that maybe the problem to the car bogging down and sounding like strange. I tried starting it and it took forever for it to start.(Because the PCM had to register) But even after that it didnt want to start, finally I got it started and it kept dying out on me before I could even get it out of Park. Finally it started and stayed running so I took it out for another test drive. It was still the same as before with the not shifting right and bogging down. When I got it back home after only driving it for 3mins, I popped the hood and my front stock exhaust manifold was glowing red(Orange). As I said before that it looks to me that the front exhaust manifold is cracked all the way around I think cyclinder number 3. Now if the exhaust manifold is cracked could that be the problem of it bogging down real bad and not shifting the right way when I floor it? I do know that I wont find out if the transmission is bad or atleast that one band that I was talking about is broke till I figure out why its bogging down. I know this is long but I wanted to try and give a detailed description of what is going on and what happened and what Ive did and what I havent done. So, if I can just re-ask the questions. Is that one and only band that you can see from taking the transmission pan off suppose to be in two different pieces or suppose to have gaps? And also If it's not suppose to have the gaps do I need to rebuild or replace the transmission? About the front exhaust manifold, Could that be way its not shifting right when I floor it and is that the reason why its bogging down? Also at the exhaust manifold it smells like exhaust real bad and gas. If anyone can help. OMG you would be a savior! I do have pictures from off my cell if that might help as to seeing the band Im talking about in the Transmission and also of the Exhaust Manifold!

How about posting pics on the band or rings you are referring to in the transaxle.

Your other symptoms appears to be a bad CAT converter. Is it still the original?

Ok How do I post pics up that I have? Also as far as I know the cat's were replaced before we got the car. We've had the car for almost 2years and when we first got it I took it to the exhaust shop and they said I didnt need anything replaced because it was all fairly new and that I had flowmaster exhaust all through out it. Which who knows! I've had the cat's checked about a year ago and they said that they was fine. Also has anyone ever heard of the exhaust manifold cracking?

Ok How do I post pics up that I have?

Just subscribe to a free photo hosting service like www.photobucket.com. After uploading your pics to the service copy the IMG tag and URL. Then post the IMG tag and URL directly in your post. Limit image size to no greater than 800X600 pixels.

Cast manifold cracking is not unheard of...but the rear bank/fabricated (welded) manifold is much more suceptible to cracking thru the welds due to thermal cycling. Cast is the ultimate in durability.

However, if you have an issue which is concentrating heat like a plugged catalyst...then that opens up a "duty cycle" which is not normally seen.

Cant excessive KR cause ignition to happen in the exhaust manifolds?

What kind of mods are you running? Any?

BTW, if you asking if you should be able to completly squeeze the ends of a band together in your trans, No.

I'm still confused as to what band the OP is referring to. When you do a pan drop the only component associated with a band seen is the Manual 2/1 servo which you have to disassemble to inspect.

I think the issue is moot because the symptoms described is not indicative of a manual 2/1 servo, forward servo or band issue. If he was missing 1st gear or had excessive slippage in 1st it would be a different issue. In most cases shifts into 1st gear are either soft or do not occur. RPMs rise with little or no forward movement.

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These Are The Pics. And As far as Mod's go I dont think they is any mod's. Only thing Ive done to it is Fender Well Intake. Other than that I have no clue. Like I said Ive had the car for almost 2yrs but I dont know if whoever had it before me did anything to it. The carlot that I got the car from doesnt know and they also didnt tell me that my motor has had an engine fire and I didnt find it out till 3months later after I bought the car. I started the car today and drove it around and took it back home and still same problems and the front exhaust manifold was glowing red. And the whole exhaust system was crackenling and popping.

Your symptoms, combined with the exhaust glowing and the cracked rear manifold, are normally indicative of an exhaust restriction such as a bad converter as Bob mentioned in post #2. I would do an engine vacuum test and/or exhaust back pressure test to confirm. If the car passes those tests, I would check fuel trim and KR values, as you may be running extremely lean.

As far as the trans issue, I'm not a trans guy, so hopefully someone else will have that answer for you.

Bob, i'm not a trans guy either, but his trans (from the pictures) looks just fine. That band isnt broken unless it is on the other side. The servo compresses the band around the drum. If both of those halves could touch eachother, the band would not be able to "hold" the band and the trans would not shift. If he was able to get both halves to touch, then I would suspect the band is broken behind.

Ok I called my local exhaust shop and they said they cant weld my Front Exhaust Manifold because of it being Cast Aluminium and they also said they cant do a pressure check on the exhaust because of the cracked exhaust manifold. Which I can understand that, by all means. I dont know what you mean by checking KR. I know what KR is but never had to check nor deal with that on any other car. I did drive the car to an autoparts store and ran the scanner on it. Heres the codes P0300 Random Mulitple Cyclinder Misfire //////// P1361 ////////// P1362 //////// P0341 Camshaft Position Sensor ///////// P1352............. Ive known about the P0300 Random Misfire since Ive had the car and I think Ive known about P1361 & P1362 but the new ones are P0341 & P1352...... But if anyone knows what these P1361,P1362,P1352 are let me know. Im going to buy the camshaft sensor tomorrow. I do apperciate everyone's help on trying to solve this matter. It's great that we have internet.

Ok I just went out and started the car and I noticed that the SC Bypass Valve is stuck open. The lever that goes inside the bypass valve to the little screw isnt touching. Its like the valve or lever is all the way inside the bypass. Thats with it just idling. But when I give it goes the lever or whatever goes down and touches the screw. Is this normal? I always thought it was the opposite way.

P1352 Ignition Bypass Circuit High Voltage (GM)
P1361 Ignition Control (IC) Circuit Low Voltage (GM)
P1362 Ignition Bypass Circuit Low Voltage (GM)


From these codes, it appears you may have a bad ICM (Ignition Control Module) or the wiring between it and the PCM. I would inspect the wiring for any corrosion, cuts, broken wires, etc... as well as the connectors on each end (at ICM and PCM).
The P0341 could also be a wiring issue at the PCM.

Like I said Ive had the car for almost 2yrs but I dont know if whoever had it before me did anything to it. The carlot that I got the car from doesnt know and they also didnt tell me that my motor has had an engine fire and I didnt find it out till 3months later after I bought the car.

You are having too many issues or DTCs for this to be one issue that might resolve all. Did anyone notice one key revelation the OP made. See quote. Engine fire. I would definitely start checking the engine compartment wiring harnesses. The IC and Bypass mode DTCs are typically wiring harness issues. Either an open or short. Until those are corrected the engine ignition timing is probably way off causing most of the other issues. Also, since the random misfires were not resolved the CAT converter is probably toast now.

This probably explains why this GTP was dumped by the previous owner.

Ok I called my local exhaust shop and they said they cant weld my Front Exhaust Manifold because of it being Cast Aluminium

I'm not trying to pick on you but the manifold is most definitely not aluminum. That would be a puddle on the cement after a hard run.

Cast iron (and still difficult to weld...nearly impossible with the obvious thermal cycling). I'd get a used manifold if possible. Get a new gasket and pay close attention to the recommended bolt torques. The manifold must "slide" when it is hot in the slots or else it will build up a lot of residual stress, pinch the studs, which eventually leads to cracking or leaks. Bottom line is increasing the bolt torque doesn't solve exhaust leaks at the exhaust-face on the head.

Well about the exhaust manifold, I was just repeating what the guy over the phone said that works at the exhaust shop. So, I guess he either doesnt know what he is talking about or just didnt want to deal with me. lol. But Yes, I took the ICM(Ignition Control Module) off and had it tested at 2 different auto parts stores and it passed. I do have 2 wires that go to the ICM which were bare but used electrical tape on it, pretty good.(Did that when I first got the car, because the carlot refused to fix the wiring the proper way). Dont know if I've said this before but the car has had an engine fire and some of the wires are messed up. I already know the wires/wiring harness needs to be replaced thats in the engine bay. I went to GM today to see how much the wiring harness cost and they have 2different options one is $1,700 and the other is $1,100. So, getting the wiring harness from the dealer is out of the question. I've tried every salvage yard in 100miles and none have any Pontiac Grand Prix GTP's let alone 2001. I've been talking to ED MORAD from Ed Morad Auto Parts and we are trying to work out a deal for a 3800SC Motor and HD Transmission and PCM and Wiring harness for a 2001. But he said it will take time because its hard to get a 2001. So, in the mean time I need to deal with this mess. Im going to get the Cam Position Sensor in 2days. Also Im still trying to figure out about the SC Bypass Valve.

Thanks for the in-put on the exhaust manifold. I will get that replaced hopefully in 4days. Does anyone know what are the steps to taking off and replacing both the front and back exhaust manifold? The front is cracked and the back exhaust manifold gasket leaks bad. So, mine as well replace both. Especially seems how I have to replace the motor mount to. Also, going back to the exhaust not being stock, the only thing thats not stock is the mufflers and tailpipes. I just got under the car and looked and it still has the factory exhaust from what I can tell and it does have the U Bend in it.(Exhaust shop, lied to me about the U-Bend, they said it had the U-Bend Delete)

I think I'd get some Delphi Metripacks (& associated tools) off ebay, Waytek Wire or the like and go about repairing my own harness. A set of heat-shrink butt-splices would also be proper for robust underhood repairs. The entire harness isn't bad, just compromised in some spots and you just have to find out where. It is not voodoo (meaning magic, or a black art, to quote a mentor) the electrons just need a clean path and the harness just needs a careful, detailed inspection and test IMHO. Really cheap to do especially if you have spare time.

Personally, I'd want to resolve the engine-controls issues first before pouring any more money into new exhaust manifolds. IOW, once your SES codes are cleared and stable, then go after the other problems.

Also...I would not lose any sleep over having the "U bend" (VOS tube). It is designed as constant cross-section and only looks like a bad restriction from the outside. IMHO to just get rid of that part of the downpipe alone with no other changes you are just getting rid of welding rods and or money out of your pocket. It may pay to remove that if you are doing a full exhaust makeover from cylinder head to tailpipe and eliminating the catalyst or going with true duals but that isn't the biggest dam in the stream so to speak.

If you are going as far as to buy an engine/trans, I'd just go for the entire front cradle including hubs, driveshafts and the whole shooting match. Less work IMHO on both ends to R&R although you will need access to a vehicle lift.

You can find the connectors at Mouser and at excellent prices, way better than what I found when I was looking for them. When I was looking for the blower motor resistor female connector. For that housing and the secondary lock and pins. For enough to make 5 complete connectors, I paid like $15.99 plus shipping.

Read this thread about 01-02 GP converters before going too much further (other than fixing the obvious cracked exh manifold and rear manifold leak.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=681283

I honestly feel that those problems occurred due to a blockage and the resultant up-stream pressure buildup.

Ok I went out and bought the Cam Shaft Position Sensor and replaced it. Took it around the block and still same problem. Still Mis-firing and cutting out and still not shifting right and I can floor the gas pedal and still wont go any faster all it does is rev's up and wont shift. Im not worrying about the ICM and or open/short circuit and the random misfire. My car has ran fine and perfect before with those codes. Even when I had those codes I took it to the track and it ran 13.9 with broken hub sensors so I had no traction control and my water pump was leaking. I just need to get it to where it use to run. Even if I could get it to run good just to make it another 2 or 3months would be great. Im going to go ahead and order the stock ported exhaust manifold's and put them on and see where that gives me. I cant tested my exhaust pressure to see if I have a clogged cat converter until I fix my exhaust manifold. I will keep updating this thread as I go along. Also did anyone ever respond to what I said about my SC Bypass Solenoid or Valve. About when I start the car my SC Bypass Valve the Lever that goes in and out is all the way into the Bypass and when I give it gas it comes out of the Bypass and touches the screw or whatever it is. Im sorry if Im not calling all the stuff by its proper name. Im fairly new to the 3800 SC motors.

Hey Richtazz I clicked on the link and it doesnt load up. The Automotive Forums at the top loads up but thats all.

I clicked on the link and it works here.

Heres an update! Techincally there is nothing wrong with the motor or transmisson. I jacked the car up and I beat the cat converter and it was clog. It was kind of cool or cold out and I started the car and every place that was welded on the exhaust was leaking. Smoke and gas smell that burnt my nose and my eyes. I mean every place that is welded on the exhaust is leaking. The manifold is even leaking. I went to an exhaust shop and asked a few questions. And what I got out of the talk was that if the exhaust is leaking that bad it will make the car run bad and that the car runs off of backpressure, and Im not burning my fuel like I should be and I would keep fouling out spark plugs. And I have been replacing spark plugs about every 2months. But just an update. So, Im going to save up the money and take it and have every thing that has to do with the exhaust fixed.

So its leaking, possibly due to excessive backpressure from a clogged cat converter?

I think you should still look into that ignition problem. At least fix the DTC's.