New owner with PGTRA006
P_Mac
02-13-2009, 09:08 PM
Hi everyone:
I just picked up what I think is the 6th GTRA ever made. It was the rental car at our local track (Harris Hill Road, between Austin and San Antonio), and has about 1,000 hours on it. This is my first proper track car, so it's a whole new learning curve for me, having come from a Porsche 996C4S and an E60 BMW M5, both of which are a tad less agricultural than the Panoz.
My first impressions of it after a cumulative hour or so of track time are:
1) Whod've thunk that unassisted brakes would be so great. Wonderful feel.
2) The steering lacks feedback.
3) Loads of grip
4) Great turn-in and overall neutrality
5) Why, oh why, must I use this shifter? Have I been spoiled that much by the paddles on the M5? <-- don't answer that, I already know.
6) Not loving the Pi dash.
7) It's not quiet, is it?
Overall, though, I'm loving the viscerality of it, although I can see a few tweaks along the way. I just love the fact that for well under $20k, you can get a track car with all the safety equipment, mechanical simplicity, that runs with a GT3 in terms of lap time, even with the parsimonious allotment of horsepower Panoz equipped the car with.
I imagine I'll be bugging you guys with questions as I get to grips with this thing. I promise I'll do a search first, but feel free to trample on my precious little feelings if I fail to do so.
OK, here goes (and thanks in advance for your help)...
1) Has anyone actually replaced the steering with an all-manual, non-boosted rack? If so, how do you like it? It seems like this is the simplest way to get some steering sensitivity back in the car. I won't be doing endurance racing with it, but how is it for a half-hour session? Also, given that I know some people went with the power steering to help them catch a slide more quickly. This will be the car I learn car control on, so I don't want to make that job too much harder than it is already.
2) Has anyone replaced the digital dash altogether, and gone to analog gauges? Was that relatively painless, and how much did it wind up costing?
3) Any reason not to go with a smaller steering wheel? Even with the low seating position, there's still not a lot of room for my legs, and it gets in the way of heel-and-toeing. I was thinking of going with a smaller diameter and a flat bottom, like this: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3406
OK, that's it for now. It's great that there's a place for owners of these vehicles to get together.
I just picked up what I think is the 6th GTRA ever made. It was the rental car at our local track (Harris Hill Road, between Austin and San Antonio), and has about 1,000 hours on it. This is my first proper track car, so it's a whole new learning curve for me, having come from a Porsche 996C4S and an E60 BMW M5, both of which are a tad less agricultural than the Panoz.
My first impressions of it after a cumulative hour or so of track time are:
1) Whod've thunk that unassisted brakes would be so great. Wonderful feel.
2) The steering lacks feedback.
3) Loads of grip
4) Great turn-in and overall neutrality
5) Why, oh why, must I use this shifter? Have I been spoiled that much by the paddles on the M5? <-- don't answer that, I already know.
6) Not loving the Pi dash.
7) It's not quiet, is it?
Overall, though, I'm loving the viscerality of it, although I can see a few tweaks along the way. I just love the fact that for well under $20k, you can get a track car with all the safety equipment, mechanical simplicity, that runs with a GT3 in terms of lap time, even with the parsimonious allotment of horsepower Panoz equipped the car with.
I imagine I'll be bugging you guys with questions as I get to grips with this thing. I promise I'll do a search first, but feel free to trample on my precious little feelings if I fail to do so.
OK, here goes (and thanks in advance for your help)...
1) Has anyone actually replaced the steering with an all-manual, non-boosted rack? If so, how do you like it? It seems like this is the simplest way to get some steering sensitivity back in the car. I won't be doing endurance racing with it, but how is it for a half-hour session? Also, given that I know some people went with the power steering to help them catch a slide more quickly. This will be the car I learn car control on, so I don't want to make that job too much harder than it is already.
2) Has anyone replaced the digital dash altogether, and gone to analog gauges? Was that relatively painless, and how much did it wind up costing?
3) Any reason not to go with a smaller steering wheel? Even with the low seating position, there's still not a lot of room for my legs, and it gets in the way of heel-and-toeing. I was thinking of going with a smaller diameter and a flat bottom, like this: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3406
OK, that's it for now. It's great that there's a place for owners of these vehicles to get together.
Blue Streak 21
02-13-2009, 10:59 PM
Welcome to the club! You've picked a great car. You'll have lots of opportunity to make the car just like you want it. And it will be reliable and fast!
As for gauges, I've added a big tach, and electric sender gauges for oil pressure, oil temp and water temp. I couldn't read the PI dash during the race, So I cut a few holes in the flat dash in inserted three Autometer gauges. Took a couple of hours fab time, and a couple of hours assembly. The tach sits on top of the dash panel. Everything is much easier to read.
Enjoy the car!!!
Jerry
As for gauges, I've added a big tach, and electric sender gauges for oil pressure, oil temp and water temp. I couldn't read the PI dash during the race, So I cut a few holes in the flat dash in inserted three Autometer gauges. Took a couple of hours fab time, and a couple of hours assembly. The tach sits on top of the dash panel. Everything is much easier to read.
Enjoy the car!!!
Jerry
PanozDuke
02-14-2009, 06:45 AM
Hi P_Mac,
You got my car! I drove it in the morning and went home to think about it and you bought it that afternoon. I think you got a great car even if the hour meter was pretty high. The motor was great, the trans had a rear seal leak, but worked great. It was set up very neutral. I liked that car so much, I convinced my wife to expand the car crazy budget some more and bought the #52 (serial # 043) from Hayes at Wire Wheel. Still working out how to get it back to Texas.
I think the noise you heard was what I heard also and is in the rear end. It's not normal. Bo said he thought it was the gear set and had a good one to put in. I hope he gave that to you. There are a number of posts here on the inner axle seal system, a new version of the seal to help keep the diff lube in the center section and the fact that the rear wheel bearings are lubed with grease like the fronts. There is also a thread that addresses how to reduce the assist on the power rack and admonitions not to go to manual with the high caster in the steering coupled with the big tires in this car.
Hope you come run at TWS and maybe I can come to H2R (what a great track). Send me an email and I'll forward a summary of the forum posts I've been working on that will reduce your search time for tribal wisdom: [email protected]
Mike
You got my car! I drove it in the morning and went home to think about it and you bought it that afternoon. I think you got a great car even if the hour meter was pretty high. The motor was great, the trans had a rear seal leak, but worked great. It was set up very neutral. I liked that car so much, I convinced my wife to expand the car crazy budget some more and bought the #52 (serial # 043) from Hayes at Wire Wheel. Still working out how to get it back to Texas.
I think the noise you heard was what I heard also and is in the rear end. It's not normal. Bo said he thought it was the gear set and had a good one to put in. I hope he gave that to you. There are a number of posts here on the inner axle seal system, a new version of the seal to help keep the diff lube in the center section and the fact that the rear wheel bearings are lubed with grease like the fronts. There is also a thread that addresses how to reduce the assist on the power rack and admonitions not to go to manual with the high caster in the steering coupled with the big tires in this car.
Hope you come run at TWS and maybe I can come to H2R (what a great track). Send me an email and I'll forward a summary of the forum posts I've been working on that will reduce your search time for tribal wisdom: [email protected]
Mike
P_Mac
02-14-2009, 11:14 AM
Hi Mike:
I felt pretty bad about that. I was supposed to have driven it on Monday, but when I turned up, it was up in the air, as a weld had failed that weekend. By the time they got it fixed on Wednesday, you were scheduled to come down. I found out later that someone else was on their way through from (I think) College Station to drive it, and Bo had to call them midway to say "May as well turn back around - it's already sold".
I suspect the car has a few issues. The noise from the rear end is annoying as hell, and I'm torn between just fixing it now, or waiting until it fails. It's really easy to turn a fun, economical hobby into a money pit. I went back to drive it this week, got about 20 minutes' worth of a session, pitted, whereupon it promptly wet itself all over the parking lot. In the end, we traced it to a 4" length of wire, that feeds power to the switch the controls the radiator fan. 5 minutes and a few quarts of coolant later, I was back on track without the overheating issues. I felt like a real racecar driver! I foresee more days like this. I don't know if you looked under the hood, but the wiring looks a bit like it's experienced some tinkering over the years.
In the end, the convenience of them letting me keep the car at the track won me over. I don't need to buy a trailer, or rent a storage unit (our 3rd garage bay is littered with toys). The guys at the track know the car, and the mechanic there is willing to help with the maintenance, so it's really a best case scenario. Plus, the depreciation curve is pretty flat, so when the time comes, I can sell it for what I paid. Besides, if I'm going to hop the curb and roll it a couple of times, I'd rather it be in this than a Miata with a bolt-in roll hoop.
If you ever make it back over to H2R again, let me know, and we can meet up. I live in Austin, but it's only a 50 minute drive down.
I felt pretty bad about that. I was supposed to have driven it on Monday, but when I turned up, it was up in the air, as a weld had failed that weekend. By the time they got it fixed on Wednesday, you were scheduled to come down. I found out later that someone else was on their way through from (I think) College Station to drive it, and Bo had to call them midway to say "May as well turn back around - it's already sold".
I suspect the car has a few issues. The noise from the rear end is annoying as hell, and I'm torn between just fixing it now, or waiting until it fails. It's really easy to turn a fun, economical hobby into a money pit. I went back to drive it this week, got about 20 minutes' worth of a session, pitted, whereupon it promptly wet itself all over the parking lot. In the end, we traced it to a 4" length of wire, that feeds power to the switch the controls the radiator fan. 5 minutes and a few quarts of coolant later, I was back on track without the overheating issues. I felt like a real racecar driver! I foresee more days like this. I don't know if you looked under the hood, but the wiring looks a bit like it's experienced some tinkering over the years.
In the end, the convenience of them letting me keep the car at the track won me over. I don't need to buy a trailer, or rent a storage unit (our 3rd garage bay is littered with toys). The guys at the track know the car, and the mechanic there is willing to help with the maintenance, so it's really a best case scenario. Plus, the depreciation curve is pretty flat, so when the time comes, I can sell it for what I paid. Besides, if I'm going to hop the curb and roll it a couple of times, I'd rather it be in this than a Miata with a bolt-in roll hoop.
If you ever make it back over to H2R again, let me know, and we can meet up. I live in Austin, but it's only a 50 minute drive down.
Wess-RA
02-14-2009, 06:56 PM
Welcome P Mac, It looks like most of your questions are getting answered. Regarding the steering wheel. Have you tried getting a thinner seat pad to drop yourself down a bit? I have a very thin one in my car. Don't' have any leg interference problems.
gamacdon
02-14-2009, 08:05 PM
i changed to a smaller steering wheel, only because i happened to have a nice one in the garage. it is a smaller diameter by approxiametely 1 1/2 inches. no problems, but steering response is a tad quicker. i am 6'2" and the extra room is nice
AIMidwest27
02-14-2009, 09:41 PM
I have rewired my GTRA, converted to Carb with analog gage's:
2 1/16 Volts, Fuel Pressure, Fuel Level
2 5/8 Oil Pressure (with warning light), Water Temp (with warning light), Oil Temp, Trans/Diff Temp, Vac. Digital Tach with integrated shift lights.
Start Retard, MSD6AL (not seen, mounted under dash)
Also converted to hydraulic after these pictures were taken.
Switches:
Fan for helmet cooler, Cool shirt temp controller
Ignition (momentary oil pressure over ride)
Accusump
Fuel Pump
Trans/Differential Pump
Fan (for Trans/Differential Pump)
Ignition (on/off/start)
Wiper
Defroster
Radiator Fan over ride
Traqmate
Label your wires, take your time.
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7739/p1190031vl0.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/927/p1190037rr4.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5811/pa240144li6.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/356/pa240145kn9.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7656/pa240148qk1.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pa240148qk1.jpg
2 1/16 Volts, Fuel Pressure, Fuel Level
2 5/8 Oil Pressure (with warning light), Water Temp (with warning light), Oil Temp, Trans/Diff Temp, Vac. Digital Tach with integrated shift lights.
Start Retard, MSD6AL (not seen, mounted under dash)
Also converted to hydraulic after these pictures were taken.
Switches:
Fan for helmet cooler, Cool shirt temp controller
Ignition (momentary oil pressure over ride)
Accusump
Fuel Pump
Trans/Differential Pump
Fan (for Trans/Differential Pump)
Ignition (on/off/start)
Wiper
Defroster
Radiator Fan over ride
Traqmate
Label your wires, take your time.
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7739/p1190031vl0.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/927/p1190037rr4.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5811/pa240144li6.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/356/pa240145kn9.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7656/pa240148qk1.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pa240148qk1.jpg
PanozDuke
02-15-2009, 05:29 AM
Paul,
I really hope to get to run at H2R. It is a very challenging track with the blind, off camber and decreasing radius portions. I also love the elevation changes. I drove the car three laps and only figured out the pit straight. I did notice the wiring needed a good cleaning up, but was very pleased with no leaks, strong motor, no blow by. I think you want to fix the rear end. If it really gets bad, it could fail in a big way. If you got a set of gears from Bo, get those looked at by a rear end shop and see if they are good. If they are good, plan on replacing the carrier bearings, pinon bearings and the seals. One of the important differences about this 9 inch is that it has seals in the axle tubes toward the center section that keeps the lube contained during cornering. These are not usually available from a shop and there is an older version and a new version. Call Gary Jones in Augusta, Georgia and get the proper replacements and the instructions. I'd take the center section to the shop you choose rather than the whole car. The guys at H2R can help with this, and the axle seals. The outter wheel bearings also need to be repacked and new seals installed. Before you pull the diff apart, check to see that the positraction is working. If not you'll want to deal with that at the same time. Use a synthetic gear lube like RedLine in the diff. Once you fix it, you shouldn't have any more issues for a long, long time.
Ted,
Thanks for the great photos of your gauge and controls installation. Looks teriffic and functional. I want to do something like that as well. I really like the relocation of the center console switches as well as key fuses to a panel mounted up on the center roll cage tube at the top of the windshield like Gary Jones did on his track car. He also added some analog gauges similar to what you did, but not as comprehensive. I'd like to retain the alarm function of the PI, but it sure is hard to read anything else on it, even rpm. I'll probably use my G Tech as well.
Mike
Mike
I really hope to get to run at H2R. It is a very challenging track with the blind, off camber and decreasing radius portions. I also love the elevation changes. I drove the car three laps and only figured out the pit straight. I did notice the wiring needed a good cleaning up, but was very pleased with no leaks, strong motor, no blow by. I think you want to fix the rear end. If it really gets bad, it could fail in a big way. If you got a set of gears from Bo, get those looked at by a rear end shop and see if they are good. If they are good, plan on replacing the carrier bearings, pinon bearings and the seals. One of the important differences about this 9 inch is that it has seals in the axle tubes toward the center section that keeps the lube contained during cornering. These are not usually available from a shop and there is an older version and a new version. Call Gary Jones in Augusta, Georgia and get the proper replacements and the instructions. I'd take the center section to the shop you choose rather than the whole car. The guys at H2R can help with this, and the axle seals. The outter wheel bearings also need to be repacked and new seals installed. Before you pull the diff apart, check to see that the positraction is working. If not you'll want to deal with that at the same time. Use a synthetic gear lube like RedLine in the diff. Once you fix it, you shouldn't have any more issues for a long, long time.
Ted,
Thanks for the great photos of your gauge and controls installation. Looks teriffic and functional. I want to do something like that as well. I really like the relocation of the center console switches as well as key fuses to a panel mounted up on the center roll cage tube at the top of the windshield like Gary Jones did on his track car. He also added some analog gauges similar to what you did, but not as comprehensive. I'd like to retain the alarm function of the PI, but it sure is hard to read anything else on it, even rpm. I'll probably use my G Tech as well.
Mike
Mike
David Eastman
02-15-2009, 09:01 AM
P MAC
Welcome, these are great cars and they do give you a sence of securty if you are comming from a production car with out a roll cage. Another option to a smaller steering wheel is to move it closer to you. Jim Pomroy had a hub made that extends the steering column giving you more knee room. As for changing the steering from power to manual I think would be a mistake. However you could slow down the power steering pump with a larger pully so the steering feel isn't so twitchy. This may be the feel you are looking for.
David
Welcome, these are great cars and they do give you a sence of securty if you are comming from a production car with out a roll cage. Another option to a smaller steering wheel is to move it closer to you. Jim Pomroy had a hub made that extends the steering column giving you more knee room. As for changing the steering from power to manual I think would be a mistake. However you could slow down the power steering pump with a larger pully so the steering feel isn't so twitchy. This may be the feel you are looking for.
David
eric1h
02-15-2009, 08:33 PM
I converted to a close ratio 2004 mustang cobra it helps tighten up the steering a bit, but I plan to convert it to full manual when I complete the LS1 swap.
I also converted over to a full analog dash and ditched the PI dash
I also converted over to a full analog dash and ditched the PI dash
eric1h
02-15-2009, 08:36 PM
panozracing
02-15-2009, 09:36 PM
pic of my analog dash...
http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=94267&&g2_fromNavId=xc460f25e&g2_navId=x9808db01&g2_GALLERYSID=52c535ffde5c7c5a0827dff10025353a
looks like the speedo only goes to 160....wont be enough when you put the LSx in...hehe.....
http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=94267&&g2_fromNavId=xc460f25e&g2_navId=x9808db01&g2_GALLERYSID=52c535ffde5c7c5a0827dff10025353a
looks like the speedo only goes to 160....wont be enough when you put the LSx in...hehe.....
eric1h
02-15-2009, 09:40 PM
looks like the speedo only goes to 160....wont be enough when you put the LSx in...hehe.....
HAHA, i hope it wont be enough! lol
HAHA, i hope it wont be enough! lol
P_Mac
02-17-2009, 12:27 AM
Thanks for the input, guys. Eric, let us know how you like it when you go full manual on the steering. Also, Eric and Ted, would you mind sharing the approximate cost for the analog dash?
eric1h
02-17-2009, 01:47 PM
Full cost of all the analog gauges IIRC was @ $900
P_Mac
02-17-2009, 03:58 PM
^^ Thanks!
AIMidwest27
02-20-2009, 08:28 PM
Full cost of all the analog gauges IIRC was @ $900
Yep, that is about the right ball park for mine also (including wiring and switches).
Yep, that is about the right ball park for mine also (including wiring and switches).
boothkc
02-21-2009, 01:42 AM
You will likey get used to the steering.....try it for a while. We messed around with some springs and valves to reduce the power steering assist, but couldn't find a good setting (mostly too hard). We've all gotten used to it and actually like it on long race days or enduros....never say never this is where the fun is. Once had to get a cortisone shot in my wrist for strain from driving it...so you never know.
Ripped out the data timer and put in the same analog set from the GTS (look at pics on Panoz web site). You can order the metal piece from Panoz for the small gauges and shop Summit etc for lots of choices/costs for the gauges or just buy the Autometer stuff. I added a shift light to keep my friends honest.
Kevin
Ripped out the data timer and put in the same analog set from the GTS (look at pics on Panoz web site). You can order the metal piece from Panoz for the small gauges and shop Summit etc for lots of choices/costs for the gauges or just buy the Autometer stuff. I added a shift light to keep my friends honest.
Kevin
Panoz Paul
02-22-2009, 04:55 PM
Greetings Eric ... Looking to go analog also ; my question is w/ the speedometer ... where is the proper pick-up point for the new gauge ??? I,ve done all I can stand to get the pi ( pu ) system to read off the rotor ; glitchy at best ...
Thanks / Paul W.:banghead:
Thanks / Paul W.:banghead:
boothkc
02-23-2009, 12:03 AM
The GTS cars don't have a speedometer....not sure what you do with one in a race car anyway. If you have time to look at it you aren't going fast enough!!!:) Consider using the speedo money to invest in a Traqmate (about $1k I think) or other data aquisition unit so you can review your laps (accleration, speed, braking times, G's etc.).
Kevin
Kevin
eric1h
02-23-2009, 09:53 AM
Greetings Eric ... Looking to go analog also ; my question is w/ the speedometer ... where is the proper pick-up point for the new gauge ??? I,ve done all I can stand to get the pi ( pu ) system to read off the rotor ; glitchy at best ...
Thanks / Paul W.:banghead:
I use the "stock sender" and pickup that mounts to the tranny tunnel in between the seats, works great.
AS stated I rarely use the speedo, but i do instruct at a lot of HPDE's and driving schools and it's a nice "awe factor" for the students lol
Thanks / Paul W.:banghead:
I use the "stock sender" and pickup that mounts to the tranny tunnel in between the seats, works great.
AS stated I rarely use the speedo, but i do instruct at a lot of HPDE's and driving schools and it's a nice "awe factor" for the students lol
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