Maybe the first new idea since nitrous...then again, maybe stupid

I am currently developing a system that would be used to attain power gains in 4-stroke engines and I want to know if you guys would buy this product or not. This will be (to the best of my knowledge)a completely new system unlike turbocharging, supercharging or nitrous oxide, but for the sake of describing it, it will be used like nitrous although there is no N20 involved. The system will be activated by a push button much like nitrous, only it will be refillable at one of many widespread establishments at an excellent price. Since this hasn't been copyrighted yet I can't go into the actual science of it yet but your input will get my ass in gear if you like it. This system will provide an estimated horsepower gain of 10-100 horsepower, but this is just a modest estimate, at this time I haven't done the math to prove this. A basic kit would cost anywhere from $300-900 canadian (depending on part cost). I know I'm starting to sound like a bad infomercial now so I'll wrap this up. Right now I have finished the theory and design of the first system, and I still have a few obstacles to get around, but if this sounds like a good idea, I will buy the parts I need and start to build the first prototype. Oh and installation would be relatively easy, if you can install a nitrous kit, this would be a cakewalk.

Thanks a lot for the input.

ok i have no opinion since we have virtually no info. Is it a forced induction system? Is it bassically a nitrous with a different compound? Is it injected into the manifold?How hard is it on the engine?

It uses the principles of forced induction applied in an injection system like nitrous, (heres where im tinkering with the plan)it can be injected before the throttle body to catch the Mass air flow sensor and the computer should be able to compensate with enough fuel to keep the air fuel mixture stoicometric. Or I could inject it at the intake manifold and incorperate a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to keep the mixture stoic. As for effect on the engine, it will be just like any other system, if used right without going lean it should be fine, but any crazy power increases would still be bad for the engine.

interesting so it can both dry or wet shots. For now it really sounds like a nitrous system of couse we don't know enough details to see what the diferences are but for now i say go ahead anything new that we can use to improve performance is welcomed. Also sounds like the system is much cheaper that nitrous which is very good.

So whenever you are ready be sure to tell us more about the system cuz i'm sure evryone here is interested in new ways to improve performance.

What exactly are you forcing into the engine?

If you're planning oxygen injection, sorry, it's been proven bad.

Pure O2 is way too unstable in those conditions, the explosion would be huge.

Originally posted by 911GT2
If you're planning oxygen injection, sorry, it's been proven bad.

Pure O2 is way too unstable in those conditions, the explosion would be huge.

yeah O2 wouldnt be the best idea, especially since it'll eat through aluminum like marlon brando at a chinese buffet, and the performance gain would suck if you had to run iron heads and steel pistons since your motor would rev slower then shit and the iron would retain so much heat you'd be stuck running 120 octane when you sprayed.

Nope, not 02, worry not, the theory is sound, I already know bout the risks involving pure o2, it aint good. I don't know how much I can divulge about the way this will work because I know alot of you guys are pretty smart, and will catch on to the principles of it...dont mean to sound stingy here but I havent filed a patent. The theoery of this system absolutley WILL WORK, I am sure of that. There is just a couple things I need to work out in the way of parts...Maybe some custom fabbing of parts...I dunno. And the fuel metering still needs to be refined, but that isn't hard. One more problem I have just encountered is the fact that this system may need to run under high pressure, this is the only possibly fatal flaw...If I can not bypass this problem the system will be scrapped, as for how much pressure...Just doin the math now. But to make any significant horespower change it may need to run at very high pressure, and I am not sure if the components could handle that. Anyways thanks for the input, please keep it comin, I have started to assemble a kit so I can test out the problems with my hands (Im getting sick of math) but it will be far from complete and it may never be.

i've done a mental run down of chemistry class, and i can't think of what else you'd inject.

just as an fyi, if you inject at the t body, that's pretty much the same as "at the manifold"

if you're referring to dry/wet style shots yeah, that makes sense.

we're all in the dark until you tell us what this magical stuff is.

Well maybe that's why its really a new system. Sounds interesting so far...

Hmm...there's alot of explosives out there that you can jam into a fuel system, but not a whole lot I can think of that require extremely high pressure. Sounds sorta like an inert explosive.

You can divulge if it's an explosive or not right?? Maybe a catalyst?

I hope it isn't going to end up being water :apoke:

Originally posted by Sluttypatton
... only it will be refillable at one of many widespread establishments at an excellent price...

Propane?
Air(not fully oxygen, but same as air we breathe)?

Can't think of much else right now...

i don't know that propane works on gas engines, but it's used in diesel applications to the same effect as nitrous...

company called bullydog that makes propane injection kits.

Hey, I dont have time to do a full post right now, but I am currently working out the math to see if it is possible to inject enough at a time to make a sizeable difference, maybe not. Thats the problem I am struggling with right now. I will post the results of my math asap along with the math itsself so anyone can double check it, at that point I will also tell you what I am planning on injecting because it will be evident whether or not this is possible and whether or not I am a moron. I dont know when this will be as I am REALLY busy with other things right now, Ill try to do this asap.

Please, keep us informed.

You don't need to give great detail if you're nervous about it but I for one would really like to know some specifics.

I had no idea that oxygen injection was so bad for the engine. I would always hear about how cold air intakes were good because the cold air was more oxygen rich. So I had thought about hooking up an old oxygen concentrator (like they use in hospitals, but a cheap old one that you cant trust for a human life anymore) and plumbing it to the intake.

Originally posted by wagonman76
I had no idea that oxygen injection was so bad for the engine. I would always hear about how cold air intakes were good because the cold air was more oxygen rich.


cold air is not more oxigen rich. It is just more dense therefore you have more air per cubic centimeter and therfore more oxigen too.

exactly...

air is approx. 21% oxygen.

say, one cubic foot of warm air (or however it's measured) has 21% oxygen, but there's less air b/c it's all spread out...

if you have one cubic foot of cold air, there's more air, more dense.

like if you put water in an ice tray... the level drops when it freezes because it's becoming more dense...

technically not more water, but you can fit more in if it's cold and compressed... get it?

pure oxygen is highly flammable and would blow up your motor, and burn through the intake manifold because it burns so hot... have fun with that...

Originally posted by flylwsi
like if you put water in an ice tray... the level drops when it freezes because it's becoming more dense...

technically not more water, but you can fit more in if it's cold and compressed... get it?


um, perhaps the right idea... but a really bad example. Ice is less dense than water. That's why ice cubes float.

Dont mean to sound like a smartass but if I recall science correctly, water is the one exception to the rule...when it freezes it expands, something to do with the crystaline structure. Anyways, Im still working so ill post asap.

Right. At 4.xx degrees C (I can't remember the exact number OTTOMH), water begins to expand when cooling down.

I have done some math and I have concluded that this is impossible...Ridiculous pressures aside, it would be impossible to flow enough of this to make any meaningful horsepower increase, and furthermore that horsepower increase would decrease relative to engine speed increase. This is because the maximum flow of the solenoid would produce a miniscule hp increase at low RPM and as the solenoid is already at maximum flow, it could not flow more as engine speed increased, resulting in a smaller power increase as RPM increases [ Sf<=20000ccm, Air*Rpm+Sf=X, X is the total gaseous content of the cylenders, and as Sf(solenoid flow)is <=20000ccm while a 2.0L engine can theoretically use 13104000cc's of air @7000RPM (in a stoic mixture), 20000cc's becomes less than .2% of the total gaseous content, while @1000RPM Sf=1.1%], that may not make sence as it is late and I am tired so I may have left some steps out or got the equation wrong. The next problem is that not enough of it could be stored in a tank to produce even the maximum solenoid flow (which already produces little extra power at maximum flow.) So close yet so far away...the principle does work, and I wondered why noone had ever tried this, now that I spent 3 hours working out the math, I know why. I had a feeling it may be impossible when I started but until I did the math I was not sure. Back to the drawing board!

Originally posted by Sluttypatton
I have done some math and I have concluded that this is impossible...Ridiculous pressures aside, it would be impossible to flow enough of this to make any meaningful horsepower increase, and furthermore that horsepower increase would decrease relative to engine speed increase. This is because the maximum flow of the solenoid would produce a miniscule hp increase at low RPM and as the solenoid is already at maximum flow, it could not flow more as engine speed increased, resulting in a smaller power increase as RPM increases. The next problem is that not enough of it could be stored in a tank to produce even the maximum solenoid flow (which already produces little extra power at maximum flow.) So close yet so far away...the principle does work, and I wondered why noone had ever tried this, now that I spent 3 hours working out the math, I know why. It seemed so possible but was quickly evident it was not once I worked it out. Back to the drawing board!

so now that it doesnt work can we know what it is. i am hella interested...

-GTi-VR6_A3

The reason I couldn't say is because it is so simple, but until I did the math I couldn't figure out why it had never been done. Its nothing new, it was just the way that it would be delivered that was new (the delivery system had a lot of benefits over conventional systems, even N20), if you havent geussed it by now it was only air, and that is almost always the only way of increasing power, Im sorry to have got you guys thinking it was some magical compound, but in the end it was only air...Beefcake, you geussed it.

yeah, i know the ice thing was pretty lame, but the idea was there...

it kinda made sense, though it was incorrect...

and ice doesn't float in water because it's less dense. it floats b/c you're usually displacing more than enough water for the weigh of the ice...

whatever... oh well...

air injection wouldn't work...

that's why we have forced injection

well uh, thats kinda what less dense means, theres less of it per X amount of volume, or displacement then water so it floats....

Originally posted by FYRHWK1
well uh, thats kinda what less dense means, theres less of it per X amount of volume, or displacement then water so it floats....

you right.


also air induction. man i was already talking to guys isn chemistry majors trying what would be a good catalist for gas oxidation. Ah well maybe all that effort will give me some new ideea....like trinitroglicerin....yeah that should do the trick:p :D ;)

Lol how do you contridict what u say in two sentences and not realize it?

Model airplane fuel, nitromethane, ether or propylene oxide. By the way, Propane is about 90 octane and 5 Cetane, disels use it to get the cylinders warmed up like ether.

or maby hes just going to put in supper cooled air

coler air has more o2 but it's not pure so it's still stable

or maby hes just going to put in supper cooled air

coler air has more o2 but it's not pure so it's still stable

so you are thinking of taking just air, compressing it into one big tank close off the regular intake system so this one will seal (and not blow out the other way) up, then blowing a valve so that all xxxPSI comes blasting past your sensors into the engine? have any of you ever played with a pnumatic potato gun with a ball valve, same concept but no potato and shooting it into your engine!

This thread is long over, but no the concept did not have anything to do with closing off the regular intake system. If the air was under pressure it could be aimed into the intake along with the regular air intake.

Hey dude... Your idea is very good but its old... Lotus have already tried this on F-1 cars on the '70. They used pure O2 on the fire extinguisher system, but the car blowed ( it don't remember why... Could be becouse of the O2 system OR 'cause they lost the extinguisher sys )... If u want, I can get more details about it, 'coz my cousing has a article of what realy happened...

Originally posted by frp.br
Hey dude... Your idea is very good but its old... Lotus have already tried this on F-1 cars on the '70. They used pure O2 on the fire extinguisher system, but the car blowed ( it don't remember why... Could be becouse of the O2 system OR 'cause they lost the extinguisher sys )... If u want, I can get more details about it, 'coz my cousing has a article of what realy happened...



they used O2 on the fire extinguisher???:confused: .....You certain about that.....cuz blowing pure O2 into a fire miught give you some fun results

Try and find out more, I would be interested to see.

There was a guy in the States about thirty years ago, I think his name was Bill Keane. He built a slingshot dragster that used scuba diving tanks to supercharge his engine via a very large multi stage pressure regulator system.

The idea was that the compressed air dropped to a very low temperature from the Joule Thompson effect, when the air was throttled through the pressure regulator. So although the actual boost pressure going into the engine was not very high, it was very cold and very dense.

Also, because the engine only had to run for a few seconds at a time, enough air could easily be carried to make this work. It was so effective they banned it.............. Hmmm.

Hey... That´s here! In 1977, Mario Andretti jumped off his Lotus without using the fire extinguisher system. Colin Chapman told the team to replace the Dry powder sys with pure oxigen. Doing this they got almost 50hp plus in the Ford-Cosworth engine. They found this cheat when the Iata ( the company of transportation ) refused to transport the MK3 ( the car ) to South Africa. The susupect were based on a coincidence: On the argentine GP his Lotus exploded on the boxes... That's in 4rodas ( ano 43 Abril 2003 )... I have a pic of the car here to... Is just ask for :) Now u can send a mail directly to Mr. Chapman and ask what the hell happen when using O2! hehehehe....