Need experience tech help with my car not getting spark or fuel

Here's the deal from the beginning..

I drove my car to the store just fine.
Went shopping, came back to my car and it wont start. After the 12 try it finally starts, so I shut it off and start it again twice and it's running great.

Drive to another store and go shopping, come back to start the car same thing, wont start.. Took about 15 times to get it to start. Drove it home and everything was great. The next day I get in, try to start the car and nothing happens.. Tried 50 times and no start.

Now the trouble shooting begins.

I changed the fuel pump relay, I changed the fuel pump, and I have replaced the ECU and still the same problem.

I get no spark.
I get no power to the fuel pump.
I checked all fuses that I can visually check.
My neighbor check it out for me who is a Master Tech and after checking everything he says it about 85% sure it probably the ECU.
Replaced that but still the same problem.

Now something that controls the Fuel pump power and the spark plugs in not working, but I have no idea what it could be or how to check. It must be a part that controls both of these systems together I'm thinking.

Can anyone help me please? My car has been stuck for over a month. :confused:

Could you provide model, engine size and year please.

I forgot sorry :uhoh:

1998 Elantra GLS 1.8L Automatic

You said that you get no power to the fuel pump.
You tested for voltage at the fuel pump ?

Have you checked for injector pulse at the injectors electrical connectors ?
You can use a test light and two paper clips, a paper clip in each port of the connector and the test light hook between them. Crank the engine and see if the test light pulses.

Possibility is the crank position sensor. Cam position sensor, and Mass Air Flow sensor, also ECM control relay.

Can you identify the location of the ECM relay and feel if it is energizing when you attempt to start the vehicle ?

I know on some vehicles if you disconnect the MAF the engine will perform normally because of the PCM default.

I still have not found test procedures for the Crank & Cam position sensors. I will keep looking.

Do you have a "Check Engine" light ?
Have you had a scan done on the vehicle just because the "Check Engine " light is not on does not mean that there are not codes stored in memory.

Some things to start with.

I get no engine codes or check engine light and nothing in memory.


All voltage to the Fuel Pump is correct except for the main power Yellow wire has no power. I tested the fuse box where the Fuel Pump Relay plugs into and that checks good.

I checked the Voltage to the Fuel injectors and everything is good. I don't think a pulse check was done.

I hear mechanical noise coming from the upper part of the engine, above the manifold. It's some electrical cylinder thing, not sure what it is. It's about 2" diameter and 4" or so long? Not sure what it is.
Probably has nothing to do with anything with this issue, but I thought I would mention it.

I don't think that there is a ECM relay on this car.
Some cars have this to protect the ECU from getting damaged? this car I think does not have one. Unless I'm thinking of something else. If there was, I think I would have already checked that in the beginning since that would probably be cheaper then replacing the ECU :cwm27:

Thank you for your help, very much appreciated. I am really stuck on this and not sure what to do next?

Let me know what you think I should do after everything I mentioned above.

I think it might be one of those sensors you mentioned, I remember when I belonged to the SCCoA I read allot about people cars having some of these symptoms and this is usually what there problem was.

Thank you

Check your Private Messaages. Lets start with fuel.

Thanks for the info.

I get voltage to all wires but not the yellow wire.
I did hook up a power wire to the pump and the pump works.
But, even with the pump going, I still have no spark..

So there is something that controls both the fuel and spark that is not working.

Crankshaft sensor maybe?

See if you can locate the "Engine Control" relay and see if there is power at the white/red wire. Check the diagram. That wire also supplies power to the injectors. Take a 194 light bulb, straighten out the filament wires and plug it into the injector connector. Crank engine and see if blinks. Repeat for each injector. The relay also supplies power to the cam sensor the red/white wire.

Check the diagram, the Crank sensor is tied into that with the ground. Try checking grounds for corrosion and cleanliness.

Possibly the Engine Control relay is bad.

Let me know.

This car doesn't have a Engine Control relay, I checked :confused:
That's why I had to replace the ECU and not the relay.
I heard that some cars will have this relay to protect the computer, but this car doesn't have it.
The injectors do get 12 volts, I checked each one and they all have power.

Does the vehicle have a security system ?

Nope

This car doesn't have a Engine Control relay, I checked :confused:
That's why I had to replace the ECU and not the relay.
I heard that some cars will have this relay to protect the computer, but this car doesn't have it.
The injectors do get 12 volts, I checked each one and they all have power.

According to the wiring diagram for your car, there is an ECM relay. It and the fuel pump relay get power from the 20-amp fusible link in the engine compartment relay center. The ECM relay coil is triggered by a ground pulse to pin 27 at the ECM.

-Rod

Interesting.. Now I'm wondering how I determined that there was not one in my car. When trouble shooting with my neighbor, I think this is what we found out. I really don't remember, I will talk to him about this later.

I do get power to the Injectors, but should I do the light bulb test to see if I do have a flashing light when trying to start the car?

What image below is the one I should be checking or could be the problem?
Seems simple, but I'm having a problem figuring out which one we are talking about that I should be checking.. :uhoh:

Picture 1, 2 or 3?

Image 3 looks like it is pointing at the fuel pump relay.?

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/Picturesfrom2006/ECM20Control20Relay.gif

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/Picturesfrom2006/Engine20Compartment20FuseRelay20Box.gif

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/Picturesfrom2006/Engine20Control20Module.gif

I don't have the wiring diagram in front of me, but the ECM relay I was referring to is probably the ECM Control Relay shown in the first figure.

When you turn the key to the "Run" position with the engine off, the bulb test should illuminate the Check Engine light for a few seconds, then the light should extinguish as part of the bulb test.

-Rod

According to the wiring diagram, battery voltage is supplied to the ECM for "memory power" via a 10-amp fuse in the engine compartment relay and fuse box, labeled "B/Alarm" and provides constant power to terminal 26 of the ECM, a red/black wire. The PCM should provide a ground to the ECM Control Relay coil from ECM terminal 27 (black/red wire) which in turn provides battery power to ECM terminal 54 (red/white wire). The white/red wire to the ECM Control relay, as well as the fuel pump relay, should be hot at all times via the 20-amp fusible link B in the Engine Compartment Relay and Fuse Box.

Check these voltages with key on and with key in Run position.

For what it's worth, the red/white wire from the ECM Control Relay also provides power to the fuel injectors, the idle speed control servo, and the Mass Air Flow sensor.

Oh, another thing to try since this seems to be somewhat intermittant would be to put the car in neutral and try to start it. If that works reliably, then the transmission range switch is likely faulty.

-Rod

I tested the ECM Control Relay in picture one and I have power on the White/w Red stripe wire.
All the wires I can see looks pretty clean..

According to the wiring diagram, battery voltage is supplied to the ECM for "memory power" via a 10-amp fuse in the engine compartment relay and fuse box, labeled "B/Alarm" and provides constant power to terminal 26 of the ECM, a red/black wire. The PCM should provide a ground to the ECM Control Relay coil from ECM terminal 27 (black/red wire) which in turn provides battery power to ECM terminal 54 (red/white wire). The white/red wire to the ECM Control relay, as well as the fuel pump relay, should be hot at all times via the 20-amp fusible link B in the Engine Compartment Relay and Fuse Box.

Check these voltages with key on and with key in Run position.

For what it's worth, the red/white wire from the ECM Control Relay also provides power to the fuel injectors, the idle speed control servo, and the Mass Air Flow sensor.

Oh, another thing to try since this seems to be somewhat intermittant would be to put the car in neutral and try to start it. If that works reliably, then the transmission range switch is likely faulty.

-Rod

Ok I will try that and get back to you.

Thank you

I checked the White w/Red stripe wire and it has power.
I also checked all the Red w/White stripe wires and they have power.
"B/Alarm" Fuse is N/A, nothing was ever there in that fuse port.
I tried starting in Neutral, nothing..

Should I check the Power Wires on the plug for the Computer also?
Is there a special way of testing this so I don't worry about frying it?
I heard some things you can fry from using a test light on them?
If I do need to check these wires, Can I do it with the computer unplugged or will it need to be plugged in?

The wiring diagram doesn't imply the B/Alarm fuse is optional. Maybe you should try putting a 10-amp fuse in there and see what happens. Also, make sure you have the fuse layout diagram oriented correctly and you're looking at the appropriate fuse location.

-Rod

I would have responded sooner but this forum stopped sending me email notifications when responses where made to this topic...:confused:

Anyway.
Here's the image of my fuse box.
As you can see in the picture they was never a fuse here or any metal inside to plug in a fuse. Not sure why, but this is what I got :uhoh:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/Picturesfrom2006/CIMG4900.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/Picturesfrom2006/CIMG4898.jpg

What you're looking at there is a relay location, not a fuse. Granted, the naming convention matches what I listed in a previous post. I suspect what you're looking for would be the 10-amp fuse labeled "Burg Alarm B+" based off the cover photo above. Is there a fuse in that location, and is it good?

Did you try starting the car in neutral too? When the car doesn't start, do any of the bulbs in the instrument cluster perform their bulb test?

-Rod

Yes, all the fuses are good.
The bulb test works and check engine light stays on when the key is turned on.

I did try starting the car in neutral and the same thing happens, nothing.. :disappoin

Hmmm, the Check Engine Light gets its ground from the ECM, so if it's lighting, the ECM is likely getting power....

You're probably to the point where you need to get a professional involved, or if you're comfortable using a multimeter, getting yourself a service manual/wiring diagram for your car and tracing wires to make sure you have power where you should have power and ground where you should have ground. It looks like you should be able to access the wiring diagrams for free electronically at Autozone's repair information site (Repair Info -> Chassis Electrical -> Wiring Diagrams).

-Rod

Hmmm, the Check Engine Light gets its ground from the ECM, so if it's lighting, the ECM is likely getting power....

You're probably to the point where you need to get a professional involved, or if you're comfortable using a multimeter, getting yourself a service manual/wiring diagram for your car and tracing wires to make sure you have power where you should have power and ground where you should have ground. It looks like you should be able to access the wiring diagrams for free electronically at Autozone's repair information site (Repair Info -> Chassis Electrical -> Wiring Diagrams).

-Rod

I always get the hard to figure out problems.. :runaround:
Thank you for your help, very much appreciated.
At least know what is working and can move on to others things to help get myself closer to what the problem could be.
Hyundai has all the wire Diagrams on their website which is very nice of them to do :rolleyes:

I don't really have much experience in tracing wires at all and I haven't learned how to read wiring diagrams yet, but I guess now is the time to learn :icon16:

If anything ever comes to mind on what it might be please post, I really don't have a clue until I start testing.
Thank you for your time :cheers:

I will post back here when I do get the problem solved

Hyundai has all the wire Diagrams on their website which is very nice of them to do :rolleyes:

That is awesome! Too bad more manufacturers don't do that!!!

Feel free to post back as you rule additional items out or just as you get more data. Maybe eventually something will click with one of the readers.

-Rod

I was talking with another mechanic the other day and he said it could be the Ignition switch? Sometimes they get coated with carbon and prevent power from making a proper connection.

Could this be a possibility?

I suppose that's possible. With the wiring diagrams you should be able to easily test that out.

-Rod

Please excuse me if this post was handled incorrectly but this is the first time I have ever used one of these forum sites and I'm not too sure of proper etiquette here.

I have a 1996 Hyundai Elantra wagon DOHC 1.8L.

I also am having a serious problem with my Elantra that sounds just like yours. Two weeks ago while driving home I came to a stoplight and my vehicle died. I had never had problems with it before. I tried to re-start it but it wouldn't start so I pushed it into a parking lot so I could come back later with tools.

When I came back about 2 hours later the vehicle started right up and ran fine. It continued to run fine for 2 days when it again died at a traffic light. I again pushed it into a parking lot and returned later with tools.

This time it did not start right up. The first thing I checked was the fuel pump. It was not pumping so I thought I had a bad pump. Further inspection showed that I had no power to the pump but the guage was working properly. I tried running a hot wire to the pump to cause it to pump fuel just so I could get it home but then found that I had not spark at the plugs.

I looked at the schematics in the Chilton's manual and Hayne's manual and found the ECM relay but couldn't find the relay in the car until I saw the photos on this thread. That is when I relized it was right behind that little panel directly below the steering column. I think something I read also called it a MFI relay. I replaced it and found that it was deffinately one of the problems with my vehicle. The coil side of the relay was apparently burned open. With the new relay in place I now hear it click when I turn the key to the run position. The engine still turns over when I turn the key to start but the engine doesn't start. I will be checking the cam and crank sensors next but not sure when as I need help to check them and with the vehicle not in my yard it is hard to find time to work on the car with the other distractions (wife, kids, two dogs, work, etc...).

I will keep you posted on what I find out and hope you can do the same for me. It sounds like we both might have the same problem.

Sounds pretty much like the same problem as mine, only difference it seems is that my car only failed to start after I parked and shut off the car, not while driving. I drove it 10 miles in perfect running condition.

I'm thinking crank sensor, but really not sure.
I'm going to charge my jump box since my battery died and if I can get my car to start up again, I will probably change the crank sensor and hope it fixes it.

Let me know when you change any parts on your car and the results you get and I will do the same

Sounds good. As much as I need to get my car up and running I hope you can do the same. I love my little car. I was really hitting on some hard times when a neighbor gave it to me. I've been driving it for about 6 months and haven't had a single problem with it until now. I guess this is making up for it.

Just curious did you ever check that ECM relay. You can do it with an Ohm meter. Those stupid things are kind of expensive new. I got mine from a junk yard for $4.08. The relay is easy to test. There is a schematic on the top of the relay. You should get a reading on your ohm meter showing 2 good paths through that relay and pin 30 should not be shorted to any of the other prongs. That is with the relay removed from the vehicle and no electricity applied.

On the relay, pins 85 and 86 are the coil. You should see probably 10's of ohms across those two terminals. Pin 30 is the common, and will connect to pin 87a when off (if a SPDT relay) and will connect to pin 87 when the relay coil is energized.

-Rod

Just curious did you ever check that ECM relay. You can do it with an Ohm meter. Those stupid things are kind of expensive new. I got mine from a junk yard for $4.08. The relay is easy to test. There is a schematic on the top of the relay. You should get a reading on your ohm meter showing 2 good paths through that relay and pin 30 should not be shorted to any of the other prongs. That is with the relay removed from the vehicle and no electricity applied.

I replaced the ECM with a Tested one from a junk yard and still have the same problem. So I didn't bother to do any further testing on the ECM

you've prob tried most of this - i'm a ford tech with no hyundai experience.

1) fault could be 'ignition side'? - most ems's cut off pump if 'no spark' so check cam sensor & coil.

2) from wiring diag check particularly ems ground & power. also continuity of others if poss.

have you got any abd-1/2 codes? - can be a lifesaver but not always - you need a reader (cheap on amazon).

I replaced the ECM with a Tested one from a junk yard and still have the same problem. So I didn't bother to do any further testing on the ECM

We're talking about the relay here, not the ECM. The relay is what provides power to the ECM. I remember you've checked voltages to the relay, but have you verified you have power to the appropriate ECM inputs and have the correct grounds?

-Rod

you've prob tried most of this - i'm a ford tech with no hyundai experience.

1) fault could be 'ignition side'? - most ems's cut off pump if 'no spark' so check cam sensor & coil.
I don't know how to read the wire diagrams so I don't know what wires to check. :headshake

2) from wiring diag check particularly ems ground & power. also continuity of others if poss.
What is the ems? :confused:

have you got any abd-1/2 codes? - can be a lifesaver but not always - you need a reader (cheap on amazon).
I never heard of what you just mentioned, so I'm not sure what you mean?
My neighbor came over with some $10k Snap On Scanner, So I'm not sure if that would have checked the codes you mentioned?




ooo

We're talking about the relay here, not the ECM. The relay is what provides power to the ECM. I remember you've checked voltages to the relay, but have you verified you have power to the appropriate ECM inputs and have the correct grounds?

-Rod


I just bought one of these Computer safe LED test lights yesterday.
Now to test what you mentioned, I just need to unplug the main harness from the computer (ECM) and test the wires at the plug-in with the key on correct?

Is there a way to check a Crank sensor beside just replacing it?

1) considering the fault, you really are at a great disadvantage if you can't read a w/diagram - perhaps your neighbour could help out?

2) sorry, ECM = ECU = ECM - i live in ireland.

3) you said initially that you replaced the ECM/ECU when your neighbour tested with a reader - he must have detected something(??).

you will find wiring schematics, ignition testing procedures etc & a wealth of other hyundai tech info here (http://www.hmaservice.com/) .

this type of fault can ultimately damage your wallet by replacing uneccessary parts.
the relevant wiring diagram & a simple digital multimeter are [I]nearly always your best friends.

1) considering the fault, you really are at a great disadvantage if you can't read a w/diagram - perhaps your neighbour could help out?

2) sorry, ECM = ECU = ECM - i live in ireland.

3) you said initially that you replaced the ECM/ECU when your neighbour tested with a reader - he must have detected something(??).

He didn't find anything with the code reader. With the symptom I was having with the car and from what we checked, he was about 80% sure it could be the ECU. We only looked at it for about 10 Min's together.

I hate asking him for help since he works on cars all day and I always ask for help with weird problems I always get. I try as much as I can on my own until I give up.. HA!

He going to help me more, but I have to get it into my garage becase it's pretty cold here. I need to clean my garage to fit a car and get some help pushing it into my sloped driveway.

you will find wiring schematics, ignition testing procedures etc & a wealth of other hyundai tech info here (http://www.hmaservice.com/) .

I will check out what you mentioned.
That's where I have been getting my wiring diagrams from, but it's hard for me to understand perfectly because of all the different ways they split off and the multiple pages it continues onto.. knowing where it splits and to what it splits to. I look at it like uhhh...:eek7:


this type of fault can ultimately damage your wallet by replacing uneccessary parts.
the relevant wiring diagram & a simple digital multimeter are [I]nearly always your best friends.

I'm glad there is the Internet. I have saved 80% on parts cost from buying online. So it wasn't as bad as it could have been , haha..

I'm pretty good with other automotive repairs and I have replaced engines, 18+ hour job heater cores, timing belts, valve seal and lots of other things.. Wiring is something I haven't moved onto learning yet.
I'm slowly learning.

I just bought one of these Computer safe LED test lights yesterday.
Now to test what you mentioned, I just need to unplug the main harness from the computer (ECM) and test the wires at the plug-in with the key on correct?

Is there a way to check a Crank sensor beside just replacing it?

Right, as far as testing for voltage and ground to the ECM, if you disconnect the ECM, you'll only be able to test inputs to the ECM that don't rely on a reference voltage from the ECM. You will be able to test ground and power, but I'd start by checking for voltages to the ECM relay first.

As for checking the Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor, you might be able to test that with your computer safe (and presumably LED) test light. You could also use a very fast multimeter, but an oscilloscope would be ideal. You're looking for a low voltage AC signal when the engine is cranking. This would be rapid blinks on an LED test light if it will work for low voltages as well.

-Rod

Here's a interesting write up I found on someone else who is having the same issues as me. Different car, but the same problem and test done.
Very interesting toward the end.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/saturn04.htm (http://www.aa1car.com/library/saturn04.htm)

As for checking the Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor, you might be able to test that with your computer safe (and presumably LED) test light. You could also use a very fast multimeter, but an oscilloscope would be ideal. You're looking for a low voltage AC signal when the engine is cranking. This would be rapid blinks on an LED test light if it will work for low voltages as well.

-Rod

I used my LED test light on the tip of the sensor and nothing lights up.
Key on and trying to start the car, nothing..

So I removed the sensor.
There is 3 wires on the plug in.
I get 1 strong green light and the other 2 wires are very dim green light, which also indicates as being ground?

I tried this while key on and trying to start car.
Never got a red light..

Does this indicate a issue or just the wrong type of testing for this part?

I did not hook up my volt meter since I don't know where to touch the leads to.. :uhoh:


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/Picturesfrom2006/CIMG5683.jpg

What do you mean when you say you touched the test light to the "tip" of the sensor? Are you referring to the circle visible in the photo above? Or did you touch it to the terminals on the sensor? To test this sensor you'll really need to have it properly installed in the car and backprobe the signal wires. Obviously there is a belt that moves when the engine is cranking, so it's dangerous to backprobe at the sensor. You'll want to find a harness connector for the CKP sensor to backprobe at. The sensor is a hall effect sensor, it relies on a ferrous metal toothed ring on the crankshaft spinning past the pick up (sensor) with a small air gap. Each time a tooth passes by the sensor, a square pulse is generated, so when cranking the engine, a good sensor will generate a rapidly flashing light. The Camshaft Position Sensor works in a very similar fashion.

-Rod

FIXED ! :bananasmi


It was the Crankshaft Positioning Sensor.

I found a wrecking yard and they had this sensor for $2.71

1 Bolt + $2.71 + 5 Min's of labor = Car Fixed
I forgot about this super cheap junk yard that has dirt cheap prices on all their parts.
I could have got a fuel pump from there for $7.00 and a computer for about $15 :banghead:

All this trouble shooting, parts bought and the headache was all just a little sensor.. haha.... :gay:

Good learning experience.

Thank you you taking the time to help me trouble shoot possible causes of my car issues, it was very much appreciated. :cheers:
Car started within 2 seconds of turning the key after sitting for 2 months with a new fuel pump, pretty good car.

The Fuel pump does not prime with the key in the on position, it only activates when the car is trying to start.

Good job, and thanks for the follow-up post. It's good to know that the fuel pump only works when the engine is cranking. I hadn't heard of that before.

-Rod

Also Fixed!

Jag1980, shorod, and others,
Thanks for your help.
I had the same problem with a twist.

My ecm relay had gone bad at the same time. Replacing it did not fix my car so I kept looking for another problem. Everything I checked seemed to be ok until I checked the Crankshaft Position Sensor. I also went to a junk yard and purchased my sensor. It cost me $4.92 instead of about $90.00. As soon as I got home on Wednesday after getting the part I put it in and turned the car over and got nothing. However, I did notice that now after cranking the vehicle there was a new odor under the hood. Unburned fuel. I was in a hurry as the wife was on her way to pick me up. I didn't get to check the car again until Friday afternoon. It took me about 10 minutes to realize that some moron (me) while checking the coil primaries had left them unconnected. I re-connnected the coils and turned the vehicle over and found that my car had come back to life.

Thank you to everyone for responding to Jag1980. It really helped me to follow along and make sure I had already tried just about everything I could do. Without this board I probably would have scrapped a good car.
Thanks.

Oh and just like he said the pump only worked when the engine was turning over. I even put my hand on the pump to see if I could feel .