Misfire System

I was just watching Initial D 2nd stage and the LanEvo III was equiped with a misfire system, I was wondering what exacly that was, and how much it would cost to get one because I really liked it. Thanks :)

i dont know exactly how they work but heres the basic. a misfiring system is a turbo ALS(Anti-Lag System), it first starts off by running rich then retards the ignition timing by 40 degrees. with the delayed ignition timing this results in some of air fuel mixture being vented into the exhaust manifold unburned. when the mixture hits the hot exhaust manifold it ignites on contact and this is what keeps the turbo spooling even when the driver lifts off the throttle. with the air fuel mixture igniting outside cylinder is what causes the loud bangs. some of the mixture will continue buring through the exhaust system resulting in flames shooting out the muffler. i will note that a misfiring system will wreck havok and greatly reduce the life of an engine. its also illeagal to use on the streets since theyre so loud, especially in CA with strict emmisions.

..........alot :bandit:

there is no such thing called a mis-firing system...
it was just made up in Initial D.... (well techincally the name was made up.. but the real thing do exist...)

exactly...
it's the anti lag system...

used on wrc cars to keep the turbo spooling...

good stuff, it's a good thing they can rebuild their motors weekly...

I read from somewhere saying the Misfiring System is an Anti-Lag Turbo System. It is use in WRC and it kills the engine pretty fast...

Not sure bout the info but that's what I know..

Originally posted by Forhod
I read from somewhere saying the Misfiring System is an Anti-Lag Turbo System. It is use in WRC and it kills the engine pretty fast...

Not sure bout the info but that's what I know..

yes it is used in the WRC and it greatly reduces the life of an engine

If you didnt get what Rag said, here it is lamens terms:
It makes da turbo keep on chugging while you is turning the corner!

Though i know how illegal they are, i would like to see one in action. When i watch WRC i can never hear or see it.

thnx for the replies, I thought it sounded cool and all but not worth killing an engine and the risk of getting pulled over, especially in CA

fire spitting leach - now that sounds cool and exactly describes teh rally cars

watching wrc you've never heard it?

do you watch with the sound off?

when they come into a corner, listen for the angry popping sound... hmm...what's that?

Originally posted by endlesskev86
there is no such thing called a mis-firing system...
it was just made up in Initial D.... (well techincally the name was made up.. but the real thing do exist...)

ALOT of stuff in Initial D is made up....

Originally posted by Dorikin


ALOT of stuff in Initial D is made up....

what a great thing to say in the "Initial D" forum. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by S13_Iketani


what a great thing to say in the "Initial D" forum. :rolleyes:



By the way the only thing that isn't accurate in initial D is the water in cup thing and that was pointed out by Keiichi Tsuchiya (the drift king for all who are not enlightened )

what about on a smog exempt vehicle, my car makes those pops and its bone stock for now, cops just look and laugh cuz it so ugly and noisey

i do intend on turboing it someday but i think ill have to do a engine swap first, if it makes an engine run hot then i definatly want to go watercooled


i have herd of initialD and i was wondering, where do u get it,id like to buy it or rent it if i can

wall c ya l8er

www.yesasia.com Japanese section i dunno if it's got english subs

www.tokyopop.com is releasing US versions in a couple of months You can get a bunch of different versions from tokyo pop including a tricked out edition that changes the music to rap and stuff for the English dub. Which is stupid because the music in initial D is damn good.

www.ebay.com get some HK dvd's cheap and not that bad.

Can you equip any car with an anti-lag system ??

Other than the "Misfire" anti-lag,
Ive seen a few cars that use a small(~20-50) progressive NOS Shot in the low rpms to help make some extra power to help spool the turbo faster and give more power whilst waiting for the turbo to spool.

Wouldn't the misfire system have more damaging effects on the turbo than the actual engine, with the added heat and shock of the combustion process occuring in and around the turbine?

This thread was my question exactly, thanks to the asker and the person who gave the answers! Where do you guys watch Rally racing? What channels (in the US if possible)?

speed channel and sometimes OLN, speed channel has WRC and OLN has SCCA rally

im in california so im very intrested in SCCA's Ring Of Fire rally series, i hope to get in to that someday with my car

Bee*R makes a mis-fire system, but they just call it an ignition cut system. They say it's easier on the engine than fuel cut systems.

Originally posted by jdmwhizkid
Bee*R makes a mis-fire system, but they just call it an ignition cut system. They say it's easier on the engine than fuel cut systems.

Does it make the bang bang noise like the rally cars do?

Here's a good example of an anti-lag setup at work in a WRC rally car. The car is Skoda's new Fabia which is debuting at this weekend's German rally. The event will be aired on Thursday (July 31) in the evening on Speed Channel.

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2003/wrc/newcars/03042003_eriksson_fabiawrc.mpg

It sounds like someone is shooting at the car!

thats the same sound my car makes and mine has no turbo or injecton system

it an old vw bug

Is it expensive to acquire a misfire system?

Normally anti-lag systems are used when the engine runs too lean (rich) mixture.

What happends it senses (ecu) that the mixture is too lean, so it dumps it all out through the exhaust, but because the exhaust system (mainly manifold is close to the engine or pref the whole exhaust system) is so hot it ignites the dumped fuel, resulting in a spooling effect, mainly osmosis I think, as the area of higher concerntration meets an area of lower concerntration, either that or it all gets forced out so the turbo turbine just spins anyway.

Some debate its a retarded system that delays ignition till the exhaust stroke, so really there's quite a bit of reading to do, but I believe its the running of lean mixture.

If I'm not wrong earlier model celica (around 91'ish or that body type) are fitted with an anti-lag system in the factory, its just been disabled. The Celica GT4 if I'm not wrong.

I'm not sure about the cost of an anti-lag system, but don't expect your car's engine (and various other parts) to last long.

i went to a racing event here in greece in the mountains. they had a wrc ford escort, 2 wrc peugeut 206, and a wrc subbie as well as some other nice cars, but the majority were small toyota yaris for the smaller engine league. the ALS system so loud. its like a warzone when the cars pass by. duck and cover! lot of fun.

This System specially feature in WRC Rally Car , But it 's not for production car .
:when pader is off . The ECU will order injector to injet more feul to the engine /but without firing /and those fire-less feul passing through a exsauht pipe (temperture about 790~900'C) those explosion create a high suction power to pull the turbine and cover turbo-lag .
Cause this system is not a good things for ordiniry Turbo engine , it might reduce the life of the engine .

Ps: imagin a simple 160hp engine can be pushing to 200+ hp or more , what will happen when a turbo is not induce?
(causing a power down and lost it handeling and track griping)

And the WRC rally or racing car will cause 10 x diffrent from a 160ps familly car , imagin a 600+HP turbo car losing it power with 240Km/h !

ps2: The bigger Turbine need more power to push which cuasing the case of turbo-lag become a major problem for racer and human controling limit .

ps3 : I shock by the old damage firing system (Toyota LE mod 1600cc) on the road , it sound like a gun shoot / that time my car was behind them :p

I just found some info around the web ....I think some people might find this information interesting!

TURBO-CHARGER ANTI-LAG SYSTEM

Autronic turbo-charger anti-lag system uses a coordinated fuel and ignition control strategy in conjunction with a large effective throttle opening to produce a substantial reduction in turbo-charger "lag". The system is effective from a standing start, throughout up & down shifts and when accelerating out of corners. The system can be used with a large fixed throttle opening, or in conjunction- with electro-mechanical throttle by-pass valve or a throttle "kicker" solenoid. The system incorporates an optional turbo-charger cool-down function that ensures rapid cool-down prior to engine shutdown.

This anti-lag system allows the engine's large throttle opening or bypass to produce a considerable amount of hot high velocity exhaust gas that sustains high turbo-charger speed.

This is achieved with a higher than normal idle speed (2000 to 4000 RPM typ.). The cool-down mode uses a different strategy to produce a large volume of cool exhaust gas for rapid turbo cool-down and it simultaneously controls idle engine speed with the large throttle opening required.

CAUTION

This anti-lag system, like all others, causes considerable heating of engine, exhaust valves, exhaust manifold, turbo-charger and exhaust system. Consideration must be given to the possibility of component damage or possible vehicle fire.

Set-up of the anti-lag system MUST NOT be attempted without monitoring EXHAUST GAS TEMPERATURE (EGT) in the vicinity of the turbine wheel. A knowledge of the maximum safe working temperature a of the turbo-charger turbine is essential. A turbo tacho and a pressure gauge to measure the turbo compressor outlet pressure are also useful tools to assist in the setup of anti-lag.

Operating Modes

1. Throttle opening/bypass controlled anti-lag, using a mechanical or electro-mechanical throttle opener or bypass. ECU activation of the anti-lag function with dash mounted inhibit switch.

2. ECU controlled throttle opening/bypass using an electro-mechanical throttle opener or bypass valve. Dash mounted switch allows driver selection of and-lag function.

3. Fixed throttle opening with full automatic control by ECU with manual override or manual control of and-lag and cool-down function

Notes:- Modes 1 & 2 do not effectively use the fast cool-down function. Anti-lag action is terminated by excessive engine temperature (> 110 degC)
Mode 3 is the simplest mode to use, since it requires no additional engine mounted hardware (eg: throttle kickers or solenoid controlled by-pass valves). The cool-down mode is also most effective in this mode.

MODE 1.

MODE 2.

MODE 3.
Mode 3 use a fixed large throttle opening (typically 8 to 20%). This modes antilag function uses this large opening, high idle speed (typically 2500 to 400O RPM) and ignition retard to produce a considerable amount of hot high velocity exhaust gas that sustains high turbo-charger speed. The cool-down mode uses a different strategy to produce a much cooler exhaust gas temperature and simultaneously control idle engine speed with this large initial throttle opening, when anti-lag is not active.

Activation.
1. Manual:- Ground anti-lag I/P pin to switch from cool-down to anti-lag mode.
2. Automatic:- Anti-lag activated by engine RPM exceeding 500O RPM and remains active far 15 seconds after RPM falls below 5000RPM.
3. Auto/Manual:- As per automatic mode above but inhibited if Anti-lag I/P not grounded.

ANTI-LAG SETUP

Throttle opening, ignition retard and the resulting anti-lag no-load RPM must be chosen to produce the best compromise between excessive exhaust temperature and good anti-lag action. More throttle requires greater ignition retard to control no-load throttle closed RPM, and results in higher EGT. Anti-lag ignition timing for small capacity 4 valve central spark plug combustion chamber engines should be in range -20 to -30 deg. For large capacity 2 valve engines -2 to -2O deg should suffice. Ignition timing retard should be maintained up to a MAP value as high as possible but must be eliminated before 1 atmosphere is reached to ensure adequate off-boost performance. Below anti-lag RPM normal ignition timing should be restored so that engine torque increases with decreasing RPM in order to stabilize RPM. Additional fuel during and-lag is often required to help control EGT. A value between 10 and 20% extra is usually beneficial. The User defined PWM table functions as the anti-lag ignition offset table 1% = 1 deg retard.

eg:- Anti-lag idle @ 2600 RPM approx. User Define PWM output %(0 to 100)
Load/RPM Example TPS/RPM Example
RPM RPM
LOAD 2400 2600 4000 TPS 2400 2600 4000
97.0 0.0 40.0 50.0 12.0 0.0 40.0 50.0
98.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 15.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Engine idles @ 2600 RPM with 88 to 92 kPa MAP below butterfly with 30 – 40 = -10 deg ignition. Gives 130 to 150 kPa MAP above butterfly.

!!!! IMPORTANT!!!!

1. Irrespective of the actual throttle opening used the ECU must be reset so that the selected open is seen by the ECU as 0% open. Throttle limit learning must be performed each time a new throttle stop setting is set.
2. Before attempting anti-lag set-up it is most important that correct fuel and ignition calibration be achieved for "normal" engine operation.

COOL-DOWN SETUP

The cooldown function produces a stable idle with an exhaust sound similar to that produced by engines fitted with long duration camshafts. This disappears as soon as the engine is laboured at low RPM or loaded at higher RPMs. Spark plugs normally remain clean even during extend periods of cool-down idling. Cooldown MIN RPM and MAX RPM settings are set to values above and below the Desired cooldown idle RPM. These values should be at least 800 RPM apart to prevent idle instability. The cool-down mode MAX THROTTLE setting is usually set to 5% for best drivability.
eg:- Cool-down idle @ 1700 RPM
COOLDOWN MIN RPM - 1400 RPM
COOLDOWN MAX RPM - 2400 RPM
COOLDOWN MAX THROTTLE = 5%. original location = http://www.wrxfanatics.com/index.php?act=ST&f=43&t=1295&;

Nice info. I checked out the link and found out about the price for the anti-lag system. It's around $10,000 :eek:

Anti lag system will greatly reduce the engine's life, as its running way above design specification.

There's another method now which will soon be adopted to be used in rally cars and the like, I'll have to dig up the source of how it work but I know they manage to come up with another technique which greatly increase the engine and the turbo's life but it doesn't have the whiz bang of the current anti-lag system.