ralf/juan

who do you think will be better this season?

i personally prefer ralf
but i think it´s montoya

I think they are fairly equal with Montoya capable of being a little quicker. They both think they are better than they really are and make the same kinds of mistakes, and their ego's and conflicting personalities will prevent the Williams team from being as successful as it could be.:)

I prefer Ralf, and I think they'll be pretty equal.

At the beggining of last year I rooted for Montoya, but I soon got tired of his "hamfist" driving and selfish and arrogant attitude. He makes mistakes and still he claims it's the other guys fault. He costed the team many valuable points. Look at the last race letting Coulthard pass him while he was making donuts! Argh! Look at me I'm all pissed off now!:mad:

yeah, but JPM didn't blame it on anyone else did he? "Sh*t happens" was his excuse that time...very true.

Originally posted by hakka
yeah, but JPM didn't blame it on anyone else did he? "Sh*t happens" was his excuse that time...very true.

but it happens to often

when JPM can get his act together, which he will at some point - hopefully for him before FW sacks him - he'll be miles ahead of Ralf. RS too soft in my opinion. He's verey quick and can pull of a good fast race, but like DC too nice to become champion one day

Juan Pablo.

Ralf only ever looked good when he had Alex Zanardi as a team mate. Not that Zanardi was bad by any means, he was awesome in CART, but he didn't manage to get to grips with the current F1 rules, before Sir Frank gave up on him.

Since when did Montoya start making excuses? At the very least he is no more guilty of speaking crap than every other driver, team principal, commentator or FIA President in the "sport".

Montoya, I've met him down in Homestead Before. Great guy.:flipa:

Bah, I'm surprised Montoya did not blame Coulthard for spinning him around by staring at his rear wing, or some ridicoulous excuse. Michael got the better of him at every clash they had, even when he rear ends Michael, its still Michael's fault. He's not smart or clever enough to win a championship over Ferrari, he needs to have a much faster car.

Originally posted by huudo
when JPM can get his act together, which he will at some point - hopefully for him before FW sacks him - he'll be miles ahead of Ralf. RS too soft in my opinion. He's verey quick and can pull of a good fast race, but like DC too nice to become champion one day

Ralf is only soft when he races his brother, and I think he is soft because of fear of the big fuss newspapers would make if the two tangled wheels.

Originally posted by kaoru-tochiro
Bah, I'm surprised Montoya did not blame Coulthard for spinning him around by staring at his rear wing, or some ridicoulous excuse. Michael got the better of him at every clash they had, even when he rear ends Michael, its still Michael's fault. He's not smart or clever enough to win a championship over Ferrari, he needs to have a much faster car.

Ralf is only soft when he races his brother, and I think he is soft because of fear of the big fuss newspapers would make if the two tangled wheels.

There is nothing like a logical, well reasoned, factual, non-biased account...




...and that was nothing like one :rolleyes:

Montoya is better....100 percent......and whoever said he should get his act together before Sir Frank sacks him? why would he? he's a better driver.....and he even seems to think so...Notice how Montoya's number is 3, while ralf's is 4, which means ralf is the less of the two...and i think montoya's personality is what makes him exciting to watch..he takes risks..

no matter who is better, I think everyone sees that Ralf is Struglling with the new Car. :)

Originally posted by RallyRaider


There is nothing like a logical, well reasoned, factual, non-biased account...




...and that was nothing like one :rolleyes:

That was factual, maybe we are reading different newspapers, non-biased, well at least I don't pretend like I'm not biassed, I don't sugarcoat. well-reasoned? logical?, well Montoya makes me so angry and there is nothing worse than typing angry:mad:

Originally posted by rcmaxx
no matter who is better, I think everyone sees that Ralf is Struglling with the new Car. :)

That's why he finished 4th today after starting 17th? :rolleyes:

IMO, Ralf is more "technically skilled", if you like, which means he's often quicker on a track with slower corners, while Juan "balls-out" Montoya is a little quicker on the fast tracks... I think they're fairly equal, and its absolute nonsense to suggest that once Montoya "gets his act together" he'll be miles ahead of Ralf. This is his third season in F1, you have seen Monty's act. His erratic form is simply part of his game. As is Ralf's, though i think thats more of a confidence issue. I dont think Montoya is reliable or responsible enough to take the title (unless its handed to him) so i actually prefer Ralf as a driver, he's just as blistering when he's on form and occasionally uses his brain.

This season, I think Montoya will do better, partly due to some of the supposedly horrible things that are being said about Ralf in German newspapers etc... which to be honest i dont know what they are so if there are any german dudes on the forum or anyone who knows id appreciate you filling everyone in.

Originally posted by RallyRaider
Juan Pablo.

Ralf only ever looked good when he had Alex Zanardi as a team mate.

Hardly accurate :rolleyes: .... unless you watched only half the races over the last couple years

Ralf has made Juan Pablo look ordinary several times, and vice-versa.. To suggest he only looked good when he had Zanardi as a partner is ludicrous.

Originally posted by dbartoschek
Notice how Montoya's number is 3, while ralf's is 4, which means ralf is the less of the two

The ignorance :rolleyes:

Those numbers represent the positions the two drivers finished the previous season within their team's placement. Ferrari were champs, so MS = 1, RB = 2, and Williams were second in the manufacturers' race, and since JPM had more points than RS, JPM = 3 and Ralf = 4

But look back at the season you'll see the difference in points between the two isnt exactly a chasm and could have easily been the other way around had Lady Luck been kinder to Ralf. And before you say it, yes, i she wasnt kind to JPM either but I think Ralf lost out the most overall.

JPM is more exciting to watch, but this exciting style isnt always the most productive. At the end of the day Ralf hasnt won 4 GP's to Juan's 1 if he's a worse driver. Make your own conclusions, but for me these two are impossible to tear apart

Originally posted by crayzayjay


Hardly accurate :rolleyes: .... unless you watched only half the races over the last couple years

Ralf has made Juan Pablo look ordinary several times, and vice-versa.. To suggest he only looked good when he had Zanardi as a partner is ludicrous.

Only year Ralf impressed me was 1999, with Zanardi in the team.

Before that he was only living on his name. Making way too many mistakes and unable to match Fisichella and even the sometimes out of sorts Hill over a season.

1999 he really did the business in a car that at the time looked very ordinary.

In 2000 he didn't live up to the promise of the previous year. Given Button's inexperience he showed Ralf up on too many occasions.

Since, with Montoya as a teammate he has looked increasingly out of sorts. He has had some impressive performances for sure, like Imola 2001. But on balance Montoya, inconsistent as he is, has devalued Ralf enourmously.

The above is purely my own opinion based upon observation. Therfore at least as valid as you own. I don't much care for your 'ludicrous' and 'hardly accurate' comments as well as some of the other replies you've posted on this thread.

I think it is quite resonable to expect a moderator to adopt a less insulting tone. How can you expect the 'newbies' to act in a respectful manner when you set an example such as this?

No wonder good people are leaving this forum in droves...

Oh and by the way I'd just like to take the opportunity to :rolleyes: back at you!!!

Probably Ralf. Because of the fact that Ralf has won about 4 races and Montoya has won one but he has had more poles.

Originally posted by crayzayjay


Those numbers represent the positions the two drivers finished the previous season within their team's placement. Ferrari were champs, so MS = 1, RB = 2, and Williams were second in the manufacturers' race, and since JPM had more points than RS, JPM = 3 and Ralf = 4



So the driver that successfully scores more points must be the better driver then, right?
Considering they had the same equiptment, in theory, it must be the case....:rolleyes:

Originally posted by RallyRaider

Only year Ralf impressed me was 1999, with Zanardi in the team.

Before that he was only living on his name. Making way too many mistakes and unable to match Fisichella and even the sometimes out of sorts Hill over a season.

1999 he really did the business in a car that at the time looked very ordinary.

In 2000 he didn't live up to the promise of the previous year. Given Button's inexperience he showed Ralf up on too many occasions.

Since, with Montoya as a teammate he has looked increasingly out of sorts. He has had some impressive performances for sure, like Imola 2001. But on balance Montoya, inconsistent as he is, has devalued Ralf enourmously.

The above is purely my own opinion based upon observation. Therfore at least as valid as you own. I don't much care for your 'ludicrous' and 'hardly accurate' comments as well as some of the other replies you've posted on this thread.

I think it is quite resonable to expect a moderator to adopt a less insulting tone. How can you expect the 'newbies' to act in a respectful manner when you set an example such as this?

No wonder good people are leaving this forum in droves...

Oh and by the way I'd just like to take the opportunity to :rolleyes: back at you!!!

I agree, pre ‘99, Ralf was making many mistakes due to his over-eagerness to prove the pundits wrong, and of course due to his inexperience. Fisichella did beat him roundly, but I only rate Fisi second to MS in F1. No lie. And Hill is a WDC, remember? No Fangio, but he was quick. Why did Williams offer RS a long-term contract if he’s so bad? Yes, he did get often upstaged by Button in 2000, but like I said he’s guilty of irregular form and Jenson, IMO, showed some terrific form that season, especially for a rookie. He did get picked over JPM, lets not forget. Listen, im not defending Ralf at all costs or saying he has no flaws, quite the contrary ive highlighted the ones I believe he has!
He has looked increasingly out of sorts with Montoya? Come on… each driver has looked out of sorts for several phases in that team. I don’t recall both of those two ever being quick over several races at the same time. They seem to switch form. Montoya has devalued Ralf in that he has shown that Williams don’t need to pay Ralf £10m, or whatever it is he’s getting… other than that, they’ve both shown a lot of talent and there’s a lot they can learn off each other. Tell me about Ralf’s inability to connect with his engineers and ill agree with you, tell me about his mood swings and ill tell you he needs to grow up. Tell me about Juan’s short-sightedness in setting up his car for fast quali and consequently slower race (at least before this season) and ill tell you it was stupid. Tell me about his temper and ill tell you he needs to learn to control it and think. These guys are both quick but they both have a lot to improve in. Simple as that

As for you not “caring much for my comments”, believe me I won’t be crying in my sleep, but the tone which you saw as insulting was only because of the grossly exaggerated statement you made. If Ralf has only impressed in ’99, and has kept Juan so honest (and that’s being generous to Juan), Juan can be at best described as a midfield driver. How can an unimpressive driver have upstaged the great JPM so many times? I would only reply in a harsh tone to someone who has made what I see to be an incorrect statement. I didn’t insult your intelligence, I just said your statement doesn’t stand up, at least not in my eyes and I confidently think not in the eyes of most.

Why don’t we just take it easy, and talk about cars.. your second post was a lot more reasoned than the first (until the last line), that’s what we’re looking for.

And who is leaving this forum?

Wasn't just the comments you made to me crayzayjay, but those to dbartoschek too. Yes he was wrong, but you as a moderator should've been able to correct him without calling him ignorant. And my first post was reasoned, I just didn't feel the need to provide those reasons at the time :p

Anyway enough of that stuff, on to the racing.

Good to see that you agree with just about everything I said!

For the first six months or so of their 'partnership' Ralf was a far more impressive performer than Juan IMHO. But remember Juan was a rookie to F1 at the time. He had tested extensively for Williams but spent two years in CART in the interim. Going on the performance of the likes of Zanardi, Montoya and now da Matta it may be that the change to F1 is far more difficult now than it was when Villeneuve made the switch, perhaps something to do with the grooved tyres, aerodynamics, much sharper handling and what not. For whatever reasons in this period Montoya looked out of his depth while Ralf scored two very well deserved wins.

Come the second half of 2001 however, Motontoya seemed to get a handle of things in a hurry. Won his first race, should have won in Germany too but Ralf picked up the trophy when a long pit stop cooked Juan’s engine. Not like Ralf attempted to suggest, Montoya ruined his engine going too fast while Ralf cruised serenely around to a certain victory.

Since then Montoya has out performed Ralf more often that not. Even Ralf's win in Sepang last year was made possible by the accident between Juan and Michael at the first corner.

Don't understand your comment "about Juan’s short-sightedness in setting up his car for fast quali and consequently slower race". Remember last year they were allowed to have separate set ups for each. Perhaps you mean he concentrated more on getting the qualifying set up right to the detriment of developing one for race day? Don't know if that is true or not. If it is then why did he finish in front of Ralf so often in the races anyway?

Like I said, I think the comments I made are not in the least insulting, and if you’d substantiated your argument they wouldn’t have been made. Your first post stood appeared as a non-reasoned one-liner. Not compelled to provide reasons? Why? :confused: When you made your second post, at least there was something to discuss (which is what forums are about) and your point of view was explained. As for dba.., I’m sorry but his was an infantile reply to a subject he clearly knows little or nothing about, and in my view those are not worth reading, so the user shouldn’t go around the forums doing this, as it is to the detriment of AF. Mods have to try to maintain the informative quality of the posts or else the forum goes down the drain; no-one wants a user to post in the comparisons forum that “Ford is better than GM” (don’t even start me on those) because it has a cooler looking logo. Don’t be so quick to criticise mods’ work im sure you’ve realised that along with the odd chastising, all mods on AF are well-informed and introduce enthusiasts (such as you, me, and dba) to new knowledge, marques and cars, and often provide very useful technical information. Enough of that, im actually looking forward to debating this once we’re actually making properly reasoned arguments. J

To the racing. Yes, Ralf had H1 of their first season and Juan had H2. And Ralf was rightly criticised for his dramatic “fading” that season. It was alleged to be a result of the pressure Juan was putting on Ralf and the latter’s deplorable fall in motivation, seemingly as a result of the title being more or less decided halfway through the season.
But last year it’s not quite as clear cut as you make it, they both had their bad luck and its not fair, imo, to imply that Ralf only won due to others’ falling down around him. Remember, Juan was adjudged to have been at fault for the Sepang incident and consequently paid for it. Whether he was at fault or not, he was certainly overzealous and made a mistake, while Ralf had a flawless race and rightly won. Why take the victory away from him?

About Juancho’s “short-sightedness”, he did indeed often concentrate on quali setup to the detriment of his race car. This isn’t a myth, Juan did at times go for softer compound tyres that were acknowledged by all to be certainly too soft for the race, and while that helped his qualifying, it wasn’t a smart choice for the main event. Even then, with his softer tyres, Ralf wasn’t far behind and took a “moral pole” or two if I correctly recall. Why did JPM often finish ahead of Ralf anyway? Well, there are a thousand answers to this, good JPM performances, bad RS performances, I remember safety cars messing Ralf up a couple of times, engine blow-ups for both; we all know F1 is an extremely unpredictable sport. Besides, look at Juan’s (7?) poles last year. How many were transformed into victory? I rest my case. If you look at points/races completed last year, I believe they both stand at 4.2 points or so. (Boss looking over shoulder so I’ll leave you to check, Ralf has 4.2 points per race while Juan has 4.17. Factor in blow-ups and driver mistakes and the drivers are still very evenly matched.

cheers,
jay

Boy these long posts are getting a bit ridiculous. Will try to keep this short.

Seems our only disagreement is last year, so be it. To be honest I didn't follow last year as closely as usual. Most of the races were a foregone conclusion a dozen laps in and the coverage was so bad that the battles down the field were completely ignored. Thankfully Bernie's digital channel folded and the coverage this year has improved tenfold.

Why didn't Montoya convert those poles into victory last year? You know the answer as well as I do. He was in the wrong car on the wrong tyres. Only car that could win last year was a Ferrari on Bridgestones. The other drivers had to make do with the crumbs. I bet Montoya loved the idea of revving Ralf up by taking so many poles!

Also you theory falls down this year so far. If last year was as you say then why is Ralf still so far behind in qualifying (and racing) under the new rules?

Only time will tell. Should have asked Sir Frank when I met him in Melbourne what he thought of the pair. Doubt he'd have been forthcoming though
:silly2:

Phil,

I'm too busy to dig out the statistics from last year (I will some day if you don't believe me), but you'll find that the average qualifying times of the drivers through the season was measured in hundredths if not thousandths of a second and Juan outqualified Ralf one or so more times than Ralf outqualified Juan. There were very even last year as a whole (though rarely during the same GP).

(stole these figures)

So far 35 races together.
_________Ralf_Juan
points_____92__89
wins_______4___1
podiums___11___12

the only difference is poles, but as I've said,average qualifying times are equal. If this doesn't show they're pretty much evenly matched, then I don't know what does.

Originally posted by RallyRaider
Boy these long posts are getting a bit ridiculous. Will try to keep this short.

Seems our only disagreement is last year, so be it. To be honest I didn't follow last year as closely as usual. Most of the races were a foregone conclusion a dozen laps in and the coverage was so bad that the battles down the field were completely ignored. Thankfully Bernie's digital channel folded and the coverage this year has improved tenfold.

Why didn't Montoya convert those poles into victory last year? You know the answer as well as I do. He was in the wrong car on the wrong tyres. Only car that could win last year was a Ferrari on Bridgestones. The other drivers had to make do with the crumbs. I bet Montoya loved the idea of revving Ralf up by taking so many poles!

Also you theory falls down this year so far. If last year was as you say then why is Ralf still so far behind in qualifying (and racing) under the new rules?

Only time will tell. Should have asked Sir Frank when I met him in Melbourne what he thought of the pair. Doubt he'd have been forthcoming though
:silly2:

7 poles and no wins is more than “wrong car wrong tyres”, lets be honest it’s a very poor conversion ratio. You’d think a driver in a car capable of taking 7 poles can win at least once, as Ralf did. Williams were very quick at several tracks last year, and the Michelins weren’t always second rate. I don’t think Juan was disadvantaged to the extent you claim. If you didn’t follow 2002 so closely you would have missed Juan’s sometimes unsuitable strategies, and yes, though im sure his poles wound up Ralf, they ultimately resulted in Juan shooting himself in the foot, and heightened tension between the two, which decreased both of their focus(es?) and reduced both their abilities to use their brains.

This year has seen only two races, its inappropriate to base anything on just two races. Besides, there have been serious weather factors, and when Alonso starts taking poles (no disrespect to Alonso, great driver) you know its not the perfect basis for a comparison. If they want to give drivers one lap each, fine, but they should at least be allowed to go out whenever they want. The new rules are just to shake things up on the grid which I think is unfair as it has a lot less to do with talent and a lot to do with luck and fuel loads on where you end up. Its not a circus, its Formula 1. Give me the old rules anyday. Since its doubtful that the rules will be changed, at least the cars should be weighed (as M. Brundle suggested) before going out on the track so we can have a better idea of who’s doing what. And while theyre at it, track temperature should be displayed when each driver goes out too.

Do you remember Nelson Piquet in the Brabham? Or Senna in the Lotus? Both examples of drivers that could regularly set pole positions in cars that were not outright race winners. Add Juan Pablo to that list...

Sorry but I just can't get my head around your argument that all of Juan's poles last year somehow prove he is crap. If Juan shot himself in the foot by focusing on taking poles while Ralf concentrated on race setup, then why did Ralf only end up with a single lucky race win? Surely his forward thinking strategy (verses the cheap glory of pole position) should have allowed him to triumph over his teammate in, say, points scored? Shouldn't Ralf be carrying number three?

Do you honestly think the FW24 was as good as the F1-2002? If so bet you also think Micheal Schumacher would win in a Minardi. Lately he hasn't even been able to win in a Ferrari...

Fail to see how Alonso is relevant to the performance of Ralf versus Juan. And why the disrespect for Alonso, despite your disclamer you seem to think he has no right to be on pole? Do you think he was flattered by the car? Saying he should have somehow done BETTER than scoring pole? Should he have won the race because the Ferrari's handle like a truck? Sure he was running a bit lighter that the rest but remember he went out early, there was plenty of opportunity for the "rightfull-holders-of-pole-position" to lighten up. And in the final wash out it's not like he pitted on lap two is it?

Of course this years races can be taken into account, they don't stand in isolation. Rather they are a continuation of a 2 plus season partnership. More than that. they are a continuation of a trend that started in mid 2001. The changes that have occured this year are the same for everyone. It is a chance to see who can adapt and overcome and who finds things all too overwhelming and has to go and have a bit of a lie down. As much as I dislike many of the new regulations, we're sorting the men from the boys!

Bottom line is who do you get the feeling is more likely to make someting happen on a race weekend? Passive Ralf who doesn't want to upset his big brother or the more agressive Juan who wants to grind Schumi in to the tarmac? Sure Juan's attitude means he often ends up in a screaming heap but that is the stuff of which legends are made.

Do the names Gilles Villeneuve or Ronnie Peterson mean anything to you? Montoya is of the same ilk, sure that means his hot headedness may cost him the chance of a championship victory at some stage but that is part of what makes him entertaining. He's the Adam Gilchrist of Formula One! Bit of a cricket reference there, did anybody notice we won the World Cup :D - again :flash:

Over to you Red Leader...

Sorry but I just can't get my head around your argument that all of Juan's poles last year somehow prove he is crap.
Jeeezus…. I won’t debate this if youre going to put words in my mouth. Where did I say Juan is crap? No excuses, find it, and quote me. How many times do you want me to say that I rate both these drivers highly until you get the picture? Ralf “only” ended up with one win, but that’s 100% more than Juan, who had 7 poles. Are you getting the picture yet?

Do you honestly think the FW24 was as good as the F1-2002? If so bet you also think Micheal Schumacher would win in a Minardi. Lately he hasn't even been able to win in a Ferrari...
No, of course the ‘24 wasnt as good as the Ferrari, but it was fast, capable of winning (as proven) and should have taken more wins. “I bet you also think Schumacher would win in a Minardi”… come on… weren’t you the one complaining about the tone of my posts? Who’s making the derogatory comments now? :rolleyes: … its users like you who make mods want to leave the forum rant rant rant… remind you of someone?
And yeeeees, MS hasn’t been winning lately…. He only won 11 races last year and by your reasoning these last 2 races are a continuation of last year, so lets see, 11 wins from 19 races… poor form indeed :rolleyes:
Oh, and to bring it to your attention, MS was also capable of putting supposedly non-winning cars on pole and did take a few victories, its certainly achievable and a car capable of taking 7 poles and keeping up with Ferrari at several points last year should have taken at least one victory. Oh I forgot, it did.

And when did I say Alonso had a direct involvement in the Juan vs Ralf battle? :rolleyes: I just said the basis for comparison isn’t quite what it used to be, when you dont know whos running what fuel load, you only get one shot at setup, etc… do I have to explain this again? If you feel like this is coming over a little aggressive, its because youre obviously not reading the posts. I do have a lot of respect for Alonso, did you not read the “great driver” part? I meant, and im sure everyone else gets it here, that no matter how good Alonso is, the Renault isn’t as quick as the Ferrari, Williams, or McLaren.

Bottom line is who do you get the feeling is more likely to make someting happen on a race weekend? Passive Ralf who doesn't want to upset his big brother or the more agressive Juan who wants to grind Schumi in to the tarmac? Sure Juan's attitude means he often ends up in a screaming heap but that is the stuff of which legends are made.

“Passive Ralf” can outthink his older brother, whereas Juan’s bullying method has obviously got him nowhere. “Passive ralf”, as you put it, was largely earnt in Interlagos last year, I believe, when Ralf was catching Michael and seemingly didn’t try to pass him. What people may not know is that once Ralf was catching Michael by the final straight on each lap he was getting a lot of turbulence from the Ferrari’s “dirty air”, which made his car unstable and impossible to overtake MS. Surely a wise move to stick with the 6 points with a lap to go, don’t you think? Juan, I believe, may have tried a move, and as you say could well have “ended up in a screaming heap”, which would have been extremely stupid and lets face it, it wouldn’t have been the first time Juan let his temper ruin a race for him. The other “passive ralf” scenario was Gilles Villeneuve circuit (yes, I have heard of him) 2 years ago when Ralf, behind Michael, knew an overtaking manoeuvre was unnecessary because he had the legs of the Ferrari when Michael pitted before him. The outcome? A win for Ralf. Criticise Ralf for being duller than Montoya, fine, but to say it has hindered him is a joke. He has won more races, after all. Juan is entertaining, but im sure he’d much rather win a championship than be considered an entertaining driver who never won the WDC

Finally, I disagree about the new regulations, they aren’t sorting any men from any boys, there’s too much chance and strategy on the part of the team involved to be able to tell what a particular driver has done.

Have your last word before this thread gives up the ghost

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Jeeezus…. I won’t debate this if youre going to put words in my mouth. Where did I say Juan is crap? No excuses, find it, and quote me. How many times do you want me to say that I rate both these drivers highly until you get the picture? Ralf “only” ended up with one win, but that’s 100% more than Juan, who had 7 poles. Are you getting the picture yet?

Since you asked so nicely:

“7 poles and no wins is more than “wrong car wrong tyres”, lets be honest it’s a very poor conversion ratio. You’d think a driver in a car capable of taking 7 poles can win at least once, as Ralf did.”

“Tell me about Juan’s short-sightedness in setting up his car for fast quali and consequently slower race (at least before this season) and ill tell you it was stupid.“

“Besides, look at Juan’s (7?) poles last year. How many were transformed into victory? I rest my case.”

“Juan can be at best described as a midfield driver.”

That is just on this one page!

Originally posted by crayzayjay No, of course the ‘24 wasnt as good as the Ferrari, but it was fast, capable of winning (as proven) and should have taken more wins. “I bet you also think Schumacher would win in a Minardi”… come on… weren’t you the one complaining about the tone of my posts? Who’s making the derogatory comments now? … its users like you who make mods want to leave the forum rant rant rant… remind you of someone?
And yeeeees, MS hasn’t been winning lately…. He only won 11 races last year and by your reasoning these last 2 races are a continuation of last year, so lets see, 11 wins from 19 races… poor form indeed Oh, and to bring it to your attention, MS was also capable of putting supposedly non-winning cars on pole and did take a few victories, its certainly achievable and a car capable of taking 7 poles and keeping up with Ferrari at several points last year should have taken at least one victory. Oh I forgot, it did.

Remember the FW24’s sole win, lucky or not was against the F1-2001. When the F1-2002 showed up the goal posts shifted. How many times did Juan or Ralf beat the pukka 2002 Ferrari? Story will probably be the same shortly when the GA arrives.

Originally posted by crayzayjay
And when did I say Alonso had a direct involvement in the Juan vs Ralf battle? I just said the basis for comparison isn’t quite what it used to be, when you dont know whos running what fuel load, you only get one shot at setup, etc… do I have to explain this again? If you feel like this is coming over a little aggressive, its because youre obviously not reading the posts. I do have a lot of respect for Alonso, did you not read the “great driver” part? I meant, and im sure everyone else gets it here, that no matter how good Alonso is, the Renault isn’t as quick as the Ferrari, Williams, or McLaren.

Sorry I thought you said “when Alonso starts taking poles (no disrespect to Alonso, great driver) you know its not the perfect basis for a comparison.” Does that mean Montoya beating Ralf by almost a second can’t be relevant because somebody unusual scored pole? Sorry if I misunderstood, but I can only read the posts.


Originally posted by crayzayjay
“Passive Ralf” can outthink his older brother, whereas Juan’s bullying method has obviously got him nowhere. “Passive ralf”, as you put it, was largely earnt in Interlagos last year, I believe, when Ralf was catching Michael and seemingly didn’t try to pass him.

Disagree, at the time it was just more of the same. How often does Ralf really hustle past someone on the track? Backmarkers sure, but McLarens or Ferraris? A lot less than Montoya.

Originally posted by crayzayjay
What people may not know is that once Ralf was catching Michael by the final straight on each lap he was getting a lot of turbulence from the Ferrari’s “dirty air”, which made his car unstable and impossible to overtake MS. Surely a wise move to stick with the 6 points with a lap to go, don’t you think?

Yes we all know about the turbulence created by F1 cars and the way it affects the handling of modern F1 cars. Is Ralf particularly sensitive to it? Yes it would have been wise to stick with the points in a championship battle – perhaps Ralf thought he was in with a chance of being World Champion?

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Juan, I believe, may have tried a move, and as you say could well have “ended up in a screaming heap”, which would have been extremely stupid and lets face it, it wouldn’t have been the first time Juan let his temper ruin a race for him.

I wouldn’t say it is Montoya’s temper, rather his ambition, he tries to go faster than the car at times.

Originally posted by crayzayjay
The other “passive ralf” scenario was Gilles Villeneuve circuit (yes, I have heard of him) 2 years ago when Ralf, behind Michael, knew an overtaking manoeuvre was unnecessary because he had the legs of the Ferrari when Michael pitted before him. The outcome? A win for Ralf. Criticise Ralf for being duller than Montoya, fine, but to say it has hindered him is a joke. He has won more races, after all. Juan is entertaining, but im sure he’d much rather win a championship than be considered an entertaining driver who never won the WDC

That was a good win by Ralf, while the rookie Montoya hit the wall. As for winning the WDC it never hurt the esteem Stirling Moss, Gilles Villeneuve or Ronnie Peterson are held. Depends if one is more interested in style or statistics.

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Finally, I disagree about the new regulations, they aren’t sorting any men from any boys, there’s too much chance and strategy on the part of the team involved to be able to tell what a particular driver has done.

Whilst I dislike the new regulations (I didn’t go the Oz GP this year because of them) they are certainly placing people in some unfamiliar positions, and some are coping better than others.

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Have your last word before this thread gives up the ghost

Hey I’m happy to keep talking, however if you are threatening to close the thread then that is fine too. Suggest you show due courtesy and get the okay from the moderators of the F1 forum first. Don’t want to tread on any toes.

Originally posted by RallyRaider
“7 poles and no wins is more than “wrong car wrong tyres”, lets be honest it’s a very poor conversion ratio. You’d think a driver in a car capable of taking 7 poles can win at least once, as Ralf did.”

“Tell me about Juan’s short-sightedness in setting up his car for fast quali and consequently slower race (at least before this season) and ill tell you it was stupid.“

“Besides, look at Juan’s (7?) poles last year. How many were transformed into victory? I rest my case.”


Those are criticisms. Considerable ones, yes, but every driver that’s ever lived has been criticised. I didn’t call Juan crap, and I wouldn’t dream of it because I simply don’t think that. How many times do I have to say that I rate both Juan and Ralf very highly? Im not a politician, I have no need to be diplomatic, I don’t conduct business with either driver, I’m not trying not to upset anyone, I say what I think so just take it as it is: “I rate Ralf Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya very highly”. There. Please don’t debate it. It shouldn’t even occur to you.


Originally posted by RallyRaider
“Juan can be at best described as a midfield driver.”


I said quote, not misquote.
That goes beyond being economical with the truth, more like propaganda :p
Its like me saying “I don’t think George Bush is intelligent”, and you quoting me as having said “George Bush is intelligent”. You cant select what part of the sentence to quote. So read back, youll see that I wrote something to the effect of:
“since RS only impressed you when his teammate was Zanardi, he must be a pretty average driver. Seeing as how Ralf and Juan have been so evenly matched, by your reasoning that implies Juan is a midfield driver at best”. So come on, don’t misquote me, or put words in my mouth. Its not getting us anywhere.


Originally posted by RallyRaider
Remember the FW24’s sole win, lucky or not was against the F1-2001. When the F1-2002 showed up the goal posts shifted. How many times did Juan or Ralf beat the pukka 2002 Ferrari? Story will probably be the same shortly when the GA arrives.


When the F’02 was introduced the goalposts were indeed moved, but the ’24 was still on the pace on several tracks, after all it was able to take 7 poles, it was certainly no dog


Originally posted by RallyRaider
Sorry I thought you said “when Alonso starts taking poles (no disrespect to Alonso, great driver) you know its not the perfect basis for a comparison.” Does that mean Montoya beating Ralf by almost a second can’t be relevant because somebody unusual scored pole? Sorry if I misunderstood, but I can only read the posts.


Ok, I might have phrased that better. Im saying the basis of comparison isn’t quite what it used to be, given the new variables that have been introduced, such as weather (drivers can no longer choose he optimal time to go out on the track), fuel strategy etc… Alonso taking pole is good proof of this, since we can be relatively sure the Renault is not a Ferrari beater – yet. Correct me if im wrong, and I may well be, but didn’t Ralf have problems on Friday quali in Australia that consequently screwed his running order on sat?


Originally posted by RallyRaider
Yes we all know about the turbulence created by F1 cars and the way it affects the handling of modern F1 cars. Is Ralf particularly sensitive to it? Yes it would have been wise to stick with the points in a championship battle – perhaps Ralf thought he was in with a chance of being World Champion?


No, Ralf isn’t any more sensitive to it than anyone else, but the Interlagos track is a slightly more particular case; the start of the final straight is curved and Ralf simply didn’t have enough downforce to get close to the Ferrari. Nothing to do with the driver, all to do with the car. By the time they’d got to turn one, Ralf was too far back to do anything about it. If he really wasn’t trying to overtake his brother, why did he make the point of catching him up throughout sectors 1 & 2 on each of those final laps only to fall back at the last sector? If he had settled for 2nd, surely it makes no sense to push and compromise your position during the lap if your position is under no threat? It was simply a case of Ralf thinking. He could have tried to outbrake Michael into turn one, but that would have been extremely speculative and the dip at turn one would have likely seen him spin off. And yes, he did think he was in with a shot at being world champion. As you said yourself at that point of the season the Williams was competitive relative to the Ferrari., and had the most powerful engine.


Originally posted by RallyRaider
That was a good win by Ralf, while the rookie Montoya hit the wall. As for winning the WDC it never hurt the esteem Stirling Moss, Gilles Villeneuve or Ronnie Peterson are held. Depends if one is more interested in style or statistics.



IMO, Juan is far from being mentioned in the same breath as Moss or Villeneuve if he carries on like this. Besides, Moss only lost out to arguably the greatest driver of all time and Gilles was robbed of the WDC by a scummy teammate (Pironi) and ultimately his tragic accident. Montoya just doesn’t rank with these guys, but then that’s just my opinion.



Hey, im happy to discuss this too but not if half my post is spent correcting your “spin”, we've been posting novel-length posts and its getting tiresome

Originally posted by crayzayjay

If Ralf has only impressed in ’99, and has kept Juan so honest (and that’s being generous to Juan), Juan can be at best described as a midfield driver.


I hate to get involved, because I have stayed out of this one Jay, but the above is exactly what you said.
Taken from your post where you said it, and in the context you said it, you seemed to imply to me too that you felt Juan was average.

Sorry, but I think you are mis-quoting yourself.

BTW, I did read back, to find exactly what you DID say.

Originally posted by crayzayjay


If Ralf has only impressed in ’99, and has kept Juan so honest (and that’s being generous to Juan), Juan can be at best described as a midfield driver. How can an unimpressive driver have upstaged the great JPM so many times?


Im gonna break down this sentence and explain it. Check it:

“If Ralf has only impressed in ’99” - that’s raider’s view, I disagreed,
“and [Ralf] has kept Juan so honest” - there obviously hasn’t been a gulf in performance between the two, so that would imply that
“Juan is at best a midfield driver” - because he hasn’t proved himself better than Ralf, whom by Raider’s comments one can only rate as midfield. See what I’m saying?
The last sentence pushes the point through.
How can an unimpressive driver have upstaged the great JPM so many times” - Basically, im saying that an average driver cant reliably upstage Juan because Juan is quick and therefore I conclude that Ralf isn’t average, at least in my most humble of opinions.

I didn’t think it was that difficult a sentence to understand! :D

Originally posted by crayzayjay


Im gonna break down this sentence and explain it. Check it:

“If Ralf has only impressed in ’99” - that’s raider’s view, I disagreed,
“and [Ralf] has kept Juan so honest” - there obviously hasn’t been a gulf in performance between the two, so that would imply that
“Juan is at best a midfield driver” - because he hasn’t proved himself better than Ralf, whom by Raider’s comments one can only rate as midfield. See what I’m saying?
The last sentence pushes the point through.
How can an unimpressive driver have upstaged the great JPM so many times” - Basically, im saying that an average driver cant reliably upstage Juan because Juan is quick and therefore I conclude that Ralf isn’t average, at least in my most humble of opinions.

I didn’t think it was that difficult a sentence to understand! :D

:thumbup:

I wasn't debating who said what and in what context, I was just saying what you DID say, since you typed the statement I assume you said it, since you said you didn't say what you were quoted as saying.

Sorry for getting involved, I will leave you to carry on now:rolleyes:

Geniet jou dag....lekker bly:wave:

The line was typed, the implication was knowingly ignored to misconstrue the message. That was my beef

Originally posted by crayzayjay
The line was typed, the implication was knowingly ignored to misconstrue the message. That was my beef

Hold on here 'Jay. If your beef is with that one line then let's drop it. I can assure you there are no conspiracies here. That particular paragraph the quote was take from was so full of sarcasm, juxtaposition and weird shifts in focus that taken by itself it could have meant just about anything. In any regard it is outside the basic premise of yours that poles without wins is a bad thing, or have I got that wrong too? As a final word on the subject 7 poles is better than none in my opinion.

Thinking about it JPM and Ralf are rather complementary team mates. Juan is the more aggressive driver, equally likely to bring home glory or disaster. Ralf is a bit more level headed and reliable, not as spectacular, but can be counted on to keep things together. Well that might be the case if Ralf made fewer mistakes!

Back to the cricket analogy, if Montoya is Adam Gilchrist, then Schumacher is Damien Martin.

Man, there’s sarcasm in the paragraph, but the quote itself is perfectly straight and reasoned. That’s where the “conspiracy” comes in, cos the point I made was clear, and in no way did it imply Juancho was crap, which is what you’d saidi meant. That’s that.

0 wins from 7 poles is somewhat inadequate, IMO. That implies race performance is not quite up to scratch. 7 poles is better than none, yes, you are right there, but you get zero points for pole so if you don’t convert the advantage, as happened with Juan, it somewhat defeats the point. That’s my final word on it.
Overall these are two very good and fast drivers, each with their flaws, but both equally fast on their day - if that ever happens on the same occasion looks increasingly unlikely :D . There’s a difference in driving style, which makes Juan more entertaining to watch, but Ralf’s exactness is also something I think of just as highly. They both make mistakes, theyre both sometimes strangely off the pace, one likes pressing self-destruct and the other is often in need of a confidence boost. There, that pretty much summarises my previous 10 posts! :)

ps. not a big cricket fan so dont know who those dudes are :D

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Man, there’s sarcasm in the paragraph, but the quote itself is perfectly straight and reasoned. That’s where the “conspiracy” comes in, cos the point I made was clear, and in no way did it imply Juancho was crap, which is what you’d saidi meant. That’s that.
Thank god, finished, over, done!

Originally posted by crayzayjay
0 wins from 7 poles is somewhat inadequate, IMO. That implies race performance is not quite up to scratch. 7 poles is better than none, yes, you are right there, but you get zero points for pole so if you don’t convert the advantage, as happened with Juan, it somewhat defeats the point. That’s my final word on it.
Hey not fair - you got your final word in after me! :)
Okay then, so not to reduce your arguments to ashes and your composure to tears I will keep my linguistic weapons of mass destruction hippy holstered :silly2:

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Overall these are two very good and fast drivers, each with their flaws, but both equally fast on their day - if that ever happens on the same occasion looks increasingly unlikely :D . There’s a difference in driving style, which makes Juan more entertaining to watch, but Ralf’s exactness is also something I think of just as highly. They both make mistakes, theyre both sometimes strangely off the pace, one likes pressing self-destruct and the other is often in need of a confidence boost. There, that pretty much summarises my previous 10 posts! :)
Not to forget the who-said-that-I-didn't-say-that bit, which summarises your last five or so posts.

Originally posted by crayzayjay
ps. not a big cricket fan so dont know who those dudes are :D
Since you're from the UK I can understand why you would deny all knowledge of cricket :hehehe:

Originally posted by RallyRaider
Hey not fair - you got your final word in after me!

We each got our final word - thats how it works :p

My Words of Mass Devastation beat your "linguistic weapons of mass destruction" anyday!

Originally posted by RallyRaider
Since you're from the UK I can understand why you would deny all knowledge of cricket :hehehe:

I live in the UK, but im not from the UK :p

besides, if you wanted to wind up a brit, you could have used football as the aussies spanked the lame-ass england team 3-1 a couple of months ago. what losers!

Are you two quite done then? :p

:silly:

yep,

hope you were entertained! :D

Originally posted by ales
Are you two quite done then? :p

:silly:

Looks like it :apoke:

I'll leave you the honours of closing this wonderful chapter in the history of AF, Alex :D