Is this mechanic trying to rob me?

Hi,

My girlfriend recently took her car in with an ATF leak from her coolant line. The guy told her needed a new radiator. There was nothing wrong with the one she had. He said her current one needed a part replaced (I'm pretty sure it's an O ring), and he said that because the car's radiator is not the one it was built with (i.e. it was replaced before she bought it), he can't find the part that matches.

I thought he should have been able to contact the company that made her radiator, and just ask for the part. He says they would only sell the parts to actual dealers.

Is this guy telling the truth? Do you guys think he really wouldn't be able to just call whoever made the transmission and ask for the o ring?

She drives a 96 Taurus, btw.

If she can do without the car a little while, remove the line and take the O ring to a place that has a selection and match it up. Is the leak aroung the line, or the adapter that screws into the radiator?

As far as I know, the line just came out of the radiator. We go to school 50 miles a part, so I can't really look under the hood.

Yeah I figured he should at least be able to go to an auto parts store and math up the old one.

So would the maker of the radiator really only sell parts to dealers, and not mechanics?

Never heard of that one. Is there any way she can take picture and post it here? If not have her send a picture to me of the line and I will post it here. Then We can get a better idea of where the problem actually is.

Unfortunately, she already had it done and paid for it. Now I'm trying to see if I'm right that he didn't have to replace the whole radiator so I can go over and get some of her money back ($800+, which includes a new water pump and drive belt).

Sounds like another "mechanic special." Having replaced a radiator in a 1996 Taurus I can tell you that there is no extra space down there. If the radiator was previously replaced and an aftermarket radiator was used it would have to be an exact match or it would not fit. The radiator would also have the same size transmission cooler inlets. O-rings are generally genaric in size and redily available at all auto part stores but even if you replaced the entire transmission cooling line (which would include a new O-ring) the entire assembly costs under $30 at Autozone.com.
As far as the serpentine belt being replaced... I've never been to a mechanic without being told my serpentine belt needed to be replaced. It's a 5 minute job and between overcharging you for parts and labor they pocket $50 or more.
Having said that I will say that you were charged an average price for the parts and work performed. it's up to you to determine whether you needed it.

Good luck,

TaurusGLenn

Without seeing where the problem actually was, I am afraid you will not have any recourse to get any money refunded. I am sure the old parts are gone and no way to check them.

You can buy a whole kit of metric orings at Harbor freight for under 10 bucks.
Dude is lying thru his teeth and is the main reason no one trusts them

Mike
:smokin:

Wow. SO, ok. What can I do?

Let's assume I absolutely know for a fact that this guy totally ripped off my girlfriend.

Now, she kept me continually updated about everything from the time she noticed a problem until after she paid for the radiator. She definitely told me the guy said he couldn't find the right o ring, and that the manufacturer of her aftermarket radiator wouldn't supply him with one.

So if I go up to this place with the receipt and explain that I know he lied and charged her way more than he should have for repairs she didn't need, is this guy gonna laugh at me because all the old parts are gone?

Or would you guess that he'd rather not risk time in court and me saying bad stuff about his business to as many people as I can? How do these things usually go?

Technically, the parts he removed from the car belong to her. He is required by law to make the parts available for her to take or inspect to verify that the parts needed replacement. Since it is common practice and a courtesy for mechanics to dispose of the parts, customers don't know they have the right to their parts. If she has made it clear of her suspicions of the unnecessary need to replace the radiator before and after the completion of the work, and he cannot provide the parts in question, then you've got a very strong case. Demand to see the oring or show one like it or explain why it was so unique that some sort of common oring wouldn't work. If there is otherwise nothing wrong with the radiator, you should get it just so it can be reused, but either way, you should get it to prove your case in need be. Make sure everything he put in is brand new and get name brands of the parts. Get quotes of the work from other nearby shops for comparison. Figure out what brand is the old radiator yourself or from the mechanic and pursue the manufacterer yourself on this unreplaceble oring crap. Try parts stores with the brand name for info too. Come to think of it, a radiator shop or the dealership should have been able to come up with that "special" oring. The oring should come with the trans cooling line, not the radiator, so the radiator never had this so called special oring!?! Talk to the BBB. They should be able to help put pressure on this guy.

If she has made it clear of her suspicions of the unnecessary need to replace the radiator before and after the completion of the work, and he cannot provide the parts in question, then you've got a very strong case.

I think there'd only be a case there if she made it clear to the shop doing the work that she had suspicions. If she did not specify to the shop that she wanted the replaced parts, I don't think any court would find the shop liable for not saving the parts.

If she was charged for a new radiator though and the radiator is obviously not new, then that's another story.

Broad comments like "the shop said she needed a new radiator, but I'm x hours away, didn't witness the leak, but there was nothing wrong with the radiator she had" and "I'm pretty sure it was a bad o-ring" don't hold water (pun intended) in court either.

I've been witness to a shop's perspective of this and in all cases I witnessed, the vehicle owner was mistaken or was not accurate in their diagnosis. It's a very awkward position for a professional, responsible business owner. I'm sure there are less honest business owners out there, but the consumer does not always know better than the trained professional that works with these types of issues regularly. If you're going to accuse someone of something, regardless of the profession or issue, please have clear proof that the accusation you are making is accurate and that you were treated unfairly.

-Rod

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I think there'd only be a case there if she made it clear to the shop doing the work that she had suspicions. If she did not specify to the shop that she wanted the replaced parts, I don't think any court would find the shop liable for not saving the parts.

She asked him (at my insistance) why he couldn't just contact the manufacturer for the part he needed. That's when he told her that the maker of the radiator just wouldn't sell him the part. She also told him that I'd looked at her drive belt a few days before she took it in, and it looked fine.

If she was charged for a new radiator though and the radiator is obviously not new, then that's another story.

I'll look at the stamp on the "new" radiator tomorrow, and also check if the radiator itself is obviously old.

Broad comments like "the shop said she needed a new radiator, but I'm x hours away, didn't witness the leak, but there was nothing wrong with the radiator she had" and "I'm pretty sure it was a bad o-ring" don't hold water (pun intended) in court either.

Several people witnessed the leak, and I'm now positive it was the o ring he "couldn't replace."

Also, I'm going there on Monday to talk to him, just to ask exactly why he replaced a perfectly functioning radiator. I'm definitely not going to just sick a lawyer on him without speaking with him first.

I've been witness to a shop's perspective of this and in all cases I witnessed, the vehicle owner was mistaken or was not accurate in their diagnosis. It's a very awkward position for a professional, responsible business owner. I'm sure there are less honest business owners out there, but the consumer does not always know better than the trained professional that works with these types of issues regularly. If you're going to accuse someone of something, regardless of the profession or issue, please have clear proof that the accusation you are making is accurate and that you were treated unfairly.

-Rod

I understand your point, and I tried to give this guy the benefit of the doubt multiple times. It may not sound like it from my posts, but I do know a bit about cars, and in fact service my own. I thought the guy was lying pretty much from the start -- that's why I started asking around on this forum, talking to friends, etc.

But wouldn't the guy be legally liable if I could prove that he charged hundreds of dollars for repairs that he knew she didn't need?

And thanks again, everyone.

I'm not sure about legal liability. I'm not sure how you could PROVE that he knew she didn't need a new radiator, etc. Negligence is one thing, maliciousness would be different. If you could prove malicious intent (purposely selling her parts that she didn't need would fall into this category) and you'd probably have a case, but that will be a tough case to prove.

Good luck and hopefully justice will prevail, whether that be an honest repair or getting some money back on an unjust repair.

-Rod

Unless there's still something I don't know, I'm positive he replaced her radiator when there was no need to. She was taken advantage of.

But I'll see her tomorrow and I'll be able to look at both the receipt and the car. After that, I'm going to talk to the guy to clear this up.

Thanks for your help.

In addition, be very clear and articulate in how you speak to the person. Do not raise your voice. You might also consider bringing along a friend with you as a witness. Breach of Peace is a very real concern if you approach the issue with heavy emotion.

My main point was, to examine the parts to see for oneself why they needed replacement. A mechanic should openly be willing to make them available for personal inspection by the owner. When I do rarely go, that has always been the case for me at all the shops I've visited. I guess I make it a point to see for myself that the work needs to be done rather than take the word of a stranger. I respect what you say Rod about the professional, but crooks come in all shapes and sizes. This openness is good policy and a good busines practice. It shows that the shop has absolutely nothing to hide proving they are honest and trustworthy. I worked for a repair business that ALWAYS made the parts we changed available to the customer if they ever felt the need to see for themselves that replacement was necessary, often leaving replaced parts for that very reason. Anything else by any repair business raises and creates suspicion, which at this point, until the shop at issue refuses to produce said parts, we are getting ahead of ourselves, though the original point of contention is the oring and not the radiator, as I believe even the mechanic hasn't denied the radiator is good. As I suggested before, if the radiator is still available, hopefully the good oring is still there to determine what makes it so "special." I find it hard to believe that it is so unique that a replacement or close substitute couldn't be found. So, like you, december, I view the mechanic's assesment with great skepticism. But, if you and your girlfriend were so wary of this mechanic, why did she use him anyway? It seemed he was female biased to me.

In closing, my main point or red flag here, is the possibilty he will refuse inspection of the removed parts. It really is a customer's right to take possesion of those parts if they so desire, as they did belong to the owner before they came off the car. Most of the time, this never happens, so it is assumed by both parties the mechanic will take possesion of the replaced parts and dispose of them as he sees fit. But, in this case, since there was so much suspicion openly made to the mechanic of the suposedly necessary repairs, total disposal of the parts creates suspicion and would appear more favorable for your girlfriend if brought to a legal settlement. If the parts have any significant redeemable or usable value, I would have to disagree with you Rod, that there is legal precedent for some reimbursement of the disposed parts, uncommon as it may be, IF, and only if, it is proven the mechanic fraudulently performed repairs determined to be either not needed or more than necessary. Well, there's my :2cents:.

Tripletdaddy, esq. de faux:grinyes:
No charge for services rendered:rofl:
Pro bono by law :screwy:

There is one more little issue that has not been addressed. Did the owner authorize the repair before it was performed? If it was an owner authorized repair, it will be really hard to prove anything against the mechanic or shop.

There is one more little issue that has not been addressed. Did the owner authorize the repair before it was performed? If it was an owner authorized repair, it will be really hard to prove anything against the mechanic or shop.

That seems odd to me. Wouldn't that mean that mechanics can commit fraud as long as the customer believes their lies and authorizes completely unecessary, expensive repairs?

No. It means that once the customer authorizes the repair, it is difficult to prove.

I have had similar experiences with mechanics. There just isn't much you can do other than tell your friends not to use them. You can complain to the BBB, but they can't do much even in cases where you can prove it.

My experience has been that most independently owned shops are honest most of the time. The chains will sometimes get ya because of how they pay their employees. I had good luck with one of the chains around here for a while, then they wanted to charge me for something silly. I took the work elsewhere.

In your case, assuming your correct that the guy is steeling, you don't have much recourse. Just don't go back, and make sure your girlfreind doesn't send any of her friends there.

I do still plan to go talk to him. She got robbed. That's wrong. And we're college students, so it's not like we have money to burn.

If I can get my scanner hooked up, I'm going to post the receipt to see what you guys think.

Ok well I can't get my scanner to work, so I can't post a picture of the invoice.

At the bottom of it, it says "Authorized By," and then a long line for the customer to sign his/her name. It's blank, and my girlfriend says she never signed anything except for the credit card bill.

At the top, it says "Save Old Parts: No."

I've never had any of this work done myself, so I don't know what it normally costs. Here's what the invoice says:

Radiator (part): $220.
Labor: $315

Water Pump (part): $78.95
Serpentine Belt - With AC (part) $69.95
Labor: $245

Including engine coolant, ATF, and tax, it totalled $866.67.

Ouch!!! That's a lot of money for people with money, let alone a college student!?! Those sound like city rates, so those may be accurate book rate hours at a high hourly rate. Seems at those rates I should spend more of my time repairing cars than talking about it!?!

I personally have had a similar experience with a shop taking advantage of me, because I was a college student, either that or they just like to pad their bill. They know they can get away with it. They also assume that college students have deep Daddy's pockets. After that one bad experience, I forced myself to do more of my own work when possible. There was a tire shop in the same area that was very well known for it's shady practices, though I think they treated everybody the same if the person wasn't wise enough to keep them honest. Not all mechanics were bad down at school, but you sure felt like you had to treat them all with suspicion because of those few.

There being a checkbox for saving the old parts validates my point about there being a customer's ownership of the parts AFTER the repair, thereby, the owner having the right to have them when done, inspect them, or decide to have the mechanic dispose of them. In this case, since your girlfriend apparently indicated or said she didn't want the parts, there's not much that can be done there. If he still has them, hopefully he will let you inspect them. From trying to make your case in small claims court, I'm not sure how much weight there will be with the mechanic refusing you to see the parts after they became his property. It only creates suspicion. I don't doubt the belt and pump could need replacing, but only if your girlfriend thought there was a problem, or she felt the mechanic had a good explanation for needing to replace the pump, because it was leaking, noisy or loose.

Your girlfriend may not have any recourse. Sadly, because mechanics know they can get away with unnecessary repairs, they continue to do them. Do let us know the final outcome. Good luck, but I don't expect you to get far.

Well, just to briefly recap the problem, she went in with an ATF leak, and the guy said that because she had an aftermarket radiator, he couldn't find the right o ring to reconnect the transmission coolant line to the radiator. Definitely didn't sound right.

So I went to talk to him. So far, it looks like my girlfriend was relaying the information wrong. I guess in her defense, the guy does talk fast, and was probably using some pretty technical terms that she wouldn't understand. But anyway.

He told me that what he couldn't find was in fact not ano ring, but a fitting that the o ring would go into. Again, finding this part was apparently difficult because it was an aftermarket radiator. He claims he spoke to ford about it, and that they couldn't help him. He also claims to have gone to a junk yard to find the radiator. The guys there had it, but wouldn't sell him just the one part, because the radiator would then be useless to them.

I asked him if there's some reason why the water pump, serpentine belt, and coolant hose all had problems at the same time. He said the water pump pulley was fraying the belt, and the part of the belt that was hanging off was constantly slapping against the transmission coolant hose, which eventually caused it to disconnect. I can't say I've ever heard of a drive belt doing that; seems like a long strip like that would just tear right off, not hang and spin around. Wouldn't that make a pretty loud sound??

But for now, I believe him. But I got tired of trying to figure all this out, so I did get her old radiator out of his shop, which he seemed cool with. I'm going to take the radiator to her actual mechanic back home to see if he thinks the guy should've been able to handle this without replacing the whole radiator.

And her car definitely needs to go in. It looks like either there's a problem with a pulley that he didn't notice, or he misaligned the drive belt. It squeeks pretty bad, and stops for a minute if I spray water on it.

Also, her car is still bucking and I think she still has a really slow ATF leak.

Both problems make me wonder.... was he trying to make sure she'll come back and give him more money?

BTW you guys have been really helpful. Thanks, and I'll let you know what happens.

I can see why you are wary of him. On one hand, if these problems you described are either remaining inspite of his attempted repair or are a result of his repair, either way, he should have taken care of them as part of the original repair or at no additional cost, if no additional parts are needed, he should fix the problem. One the other hand, however, in light of your situation, it may not be worth it. That's really a judgement call on your and your girlfriend's part. It depends on who takes it there: who does all the talking; can you work things out yourself with him over the phone if only your girlfriend can take it back, surely for no charge the mechanic should be willing to take a quick look at it while your girlfriend is there and you talk to him on the phone just after he examines it (cell phones are really wonderful things for this sort of thing); what more he is willing to do as part of the original amount paid; is the leak and the other issues originating from somewhere else, which if so would incur more cost......; do either of you have the time to pursue this, as you may need to have these issues raised and examined by the mechanic within a certain amount of time after which he could consider these to be new and unrelated issues which he would want more money to fix.

It's difficult to tell from our remote perspective your situation and best course of action.

I didn't read a good reason for replacing the water pump. It's pulley can be replaced without replacing the pump. Normally, you keep the pulley when you change the pump. He may not have correctly reinstalled the problem pulley that appears misalligned. As to the belt fraying and slapping the trans line, that sounds very plausible. As it starts to separate, it becomes a little whip that will beat on everything in its path until it wears out and breaks off. However, before that, it took out the trans line. My recollection is that the belst and the trans lines are fairly close together, enough for me to believe that scenario to be plausible. I also thought the belt price was twice as high as it could have been, AZ $20 - $33. As for the radiator fitting, a radiator shop should have that or be able to get one, duh!?! At least he should have called one, which he has not said he did. I'd even bet on NAPA or Carquest being able to get it. Oh well. A hard lesson to learn as a college student. Maybe next time, ask around for a recommendation.

Oh, btw, this is the first you mentioned I think, that the car is bucking. It seemed you implied that it is related to the original problem and were hoping reconnecting the trans line, etc. would take care of that. Are you sure it's not an ignition/performance/gas problem? Or did it just show up about when you figured out you had a trans leak? Oh, btw, did the trans line come completely off? Did all of or a lot of the trans fluid get pumped out? Has the trans fluid level been checked since driving it several miles to burp out all the air, etc.?

:banghead: If she agreed to the repair not much you can do about it???