Proposition 8, Same-Sex Marriage, and Views on Gays

Slash's wife, Perla Hudson, says "I married my sweetheart. You should be able to marry yours too. Say ‘No’ to hate and ‘Yes’ to equal rights. Keep up the fight!"

The two spoke out against Proposition 8, which effectively outlawed same-sex marriage in California. Following news that the ballot had been passed, mass protests erupted across the country.

Your views on this?
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My opinion is this: equality. no matter your sexual orientation.

That's it. the rest should belong in the Stress-Release forum, but really, it can be here, too. Its all just personal from here on out, though.

That said, here are my views on gays strictly from observance and not from any bias, ignorance, or hate. I have met in my lifetime only 1 or 2 openly gay people who I have not grown to hate. both of them were women. They did not hide the fact that they were gay, or in support of a proactive movement for equality. They were, however, "normal". I know there are men out there, too, who are this way as well. Rob Halford of Judas Priest, for example. I just have not met them. I have, however met many men who are openly gay, and to be brutally honest, I want to punch them repeatedly until my knuckles break (again).

The thing is, these men I have men are barely men. Anatomically, sure, but for all intents and purposes, they try to act like women. They are usually extremely flamboyant. At first, I thought all gay men act this way, which led me to hate a general part of society that is very present in today's culture, no matter how much people try to ignore it. I was ignorant and susceptible to blind hatred. I now know that I do not hate gay men. I am completely indifferent. It is the flamboyant men that I do not like.

I am at my friend's house during Haloween, and a mutual friend comes over. She brings with her this guy i've met before who I knew was gay and I thought was pretty cool cuz he was pretty soft spoken and liked some cool stuff. He showed up dressed in full drag (given it was haloween), and the persona to go with it. By the end of the night, I realized this: most flaming gay men are hated because quite simply, they're fucking assholes.

Now, if the point is they're trying to emulate women, they are failing miserably. well, no, because really if they were women, men would have the perfect word for them: Bitch. They are condescending, ignorant, pompous and righteous, stuck-up, and very many more undesireable adjectives. I very truly can't say i've ever met one flamer who over a small course of time has radically shown every characteristic of a human being that I would hate. It is almost consistent. To top it off, they also lace all that attitude with a hint of overwhelming low self-esteem and depression, which is sad, but pathetic all at once.

Now how about this? You are straight, and someone of the opposite sex is very blatently hitting on you, not very impressively, either. Its blunt, pathetic, disgusting, and just overall turns you off almost instantly. Now, simply change the scenario and make it a member of the same sex. Especially when you make it clear what your sexual orientation is, this person still "rubs up on you" or says vulgar things about you. yeah. This guy that was at the haloween party was literally asking to be beaten. My light inebriation plus my horrible anger issues finally showed when for the 4th time he hit me with his purse. not that it hurt, but it was fucking annoying cuz clearly he was coming on to me. I let him know that if he touches me one more time, i was gonna punch him with a lot of anger behind my swing, because despite his pink tutu and boa, he was still a man and he was still a fucking annoying prick.

The rant was just a detailed description of what I've come to believe is the general sentiment amongst most straight men who get to know gay men like this, and it is this sentiment that stretches out across america because pacifist green hippies tell us to "accept people for who they are unconditionally" when in reality that is impossible. We will ALWAYS reject. as humans, we do not like some things, or else we'd live in utopia. I believe that if gay men want to feel more accepted, maybe they should learn how to act in a way that doesn't warrant anger and frustration. My anger is not with your sexual orientation, but rather with your human behavior and disgusting demeanor. my :2cents:

Sounds like you had a bad experience, and are negatively stereotyping an entire subculture based on it, which to me, is almost as pathetic as thinking a gay guy smacking you with a purse is hitting on you.

When Prop 8 passed, I felt ill. It is a disgusting slap in the face to the American spirit.

That being said, I will await the anti-gays to come about with their "being gay is a choice", "sanctity of marriage", and "definition of marriage" arguments, because it is ridiculously easy to prove these arguments empty, and reveal the fact that all of them are merely disguises for pure and simple prejudice.

I didn't even realize it had passed until now...all we care about here is that black guy president.

But seriously, before I even had the chance to be disgusted with the prejudice of the American people, I wondered why this is even an issue? Don't we have better things to worry about than gay people getting married? Economic failure, the "War on Terrorism," our dependence on foreign oil, POLAR BEARS DYING*!

For shit's sake. Seriously, America.

And yeah, Vinny, I think that was just a bad experience. I've known lots of gay people and have one flamboyantly gay cousin, but he's never been rude to anyone or done any of the things you've mentioned. If anything, he's more considerate than any of my straight family.





*Could just be me worried about this one.

Marriage should be kept defined a between a man and a woman.God created Adam and Eve,not Adam and Steve.It should be left this way

Marriage should be kept defined a between a man and a woman.God created Adam and Eve,not Adam and Steve.It should be left this way

It's a good thing we have that separation of church and state thing, then, huh? Not to mention all of the other rebuttals to this ridiculous argument.

Marriage should be kept defined a between a man and a woman.God created Adam and Eve,not Adam and Steve.It should be left this way

What about the people that don't believe in God?

Not too mention, as I recall, Adam and Eve never got married...

There was a study done on children with gay parents,had a high percentage getting sexually abused.This was on Penn and Teller: BS.Men kissing men is sick and I cannot stand it at all

What about the people that don't believe in God?

Not too mention, as I recall, Adam and Eve never got married...

Lol...nope, sure didn't get married. In fact, Adam and Eve screwed all of humankind forevermore with their sinful behavior.:rofl:

If the anti gay agenda is in the defense of marriage as an institution to be admired then why do their proponents reduce it to just to a matter of reproductive lust?

The Christian view of marriage seems to be to copulate regularly and “Go forth and multiply”. How spiritual.

Gay marriage seems to be about a union of souls dedicating themselves to each other for a life time regardless of all the challenges to their love for each other, both internal and external.

Drop the idea's of sexual acts out of your dirty minds and look at the real people and emotions and real consequences to those who are you're daughters, sons, cousins and friends .

It's too bad they don't outlaw stupid-people marriages. Studies have shown that a high percentages of children with stupid parents, get taught stupid things, and grow up to to say stupid things where the fact that two words will rime seems to make up for a total lack of logic behind their argument.

Sounds like you had a bad experience, and are negatively stereotyping an entire subculture based on it, which to me, is almost as pathetic as thinking a gay guy smacking you with a purse is hitting on you.

well, i'd like to say i'm not prejudice, i mean, i truly do belive in equality. trust me, being a minority basically started its life-lessons since i was a kid.

pathetic, i don't really think so. please, a blind person would know he was flirting, so don't tell me i'm assuming he's hitting on me.
If someone were to be lead to think this way from repeat experiences, i would only expect "pathetic" to come out of a saint's mouth. If we were all so wholesome, America would not have allowed Proposition 8 to even be a ballot, yet, it was, and was voted to pass. In no way, shape, or form do I agree with it, but I merely stated my personal views to show a template for a more generalized reaction as a larger group of people. Unfortunately, it probably is from bad experiences... but that's just too bad, isn't it. looks like i'll just have to continue hating assholes. just cuz their gay doesn't change my view on equality. so me being pathetic is really translating to me as being an asshole for hating a prick. I guess I'm stereotyping flamers... but you know, i don't care. I still gave this guy a chance the first time i met him, and i'm probably still gonna give the next one a chance.

whatever, repeal prop 8, Obama '08, Yes We Can.

Well, Prop 8 did pass. The voters did approve it. On top of that, it has been said that it passed on the strength of the minority vote, people that have been traditionally viewed as liberal voters.

Take it up with the voters. These are the folks who voted BO in but still maintain some conservative views. Your beef is with them.

Well, Prop 8 did pass. The voters did approve it. On top of that, it has been said that it passed on the strength of the minority vote, people that have been traditionally viewed as liberal voters.

Take it up with the voters. These are the folks who voted BO in but still maintain some conservative views. Your beef is with them.

:werd:

Good point! See below.


Prop 8 critics have little support among minority voters
Seven out of ten blacks, 53 percent of Latinos supported the gay-marriage ban

The Washington Post
Updated: 11/07/2008 09:25:41 AM MST


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10925501

Also, it never ceases to amaze me how people that don't believe in God, Jesus or the Bible are the first to fall back on the story of Adam and Eve or parse it which originates out of the Old Testament book of Genesis. :screwy:

Here is where the gay rights movement is going to run into problems if they want voter support. The leadership needs to sit on these folks or they'll do a lot more damage to the cause than good.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20081112/NEWS01/811120369



Gay rights protesters disrupt Sunday service
People threw fliers, shouted slogans at Delta Township church

DELTA TWP. - A radical gay rights group is claiming responsibility for a protest Sunday at Mount Hope Church in Delta Township.
Advertisement

Protesters who entered the Creyts Road church along with worshippers surprised the congregation when they stood up during the service, threw fliers at churchgoers and shouted slogans such as "It's OK to be gay," and "Jesus was a homo," according to David Williams, communications director at the church. His father, Dave Williams, is the church's longtime pastor. He was not preaching at the church Sunday.

Another group of protesters demonstrated outside the church at the same time as the indoor protest.

The Eaton County Sheriff's Department responded to the scene Sunday but no arrests were made. ..........

Fire alarm pulled

According to a report on the Bash Back group's news site, protesters inside the church pulled a fire alarm, unfurled a banner from the church balcony, shouted and threw fliers to the worshippers.

Outside the church, protesters carried picket signs and an upside-down, pink cross.

The conservative RightMichigan Web site posted an account of the incident Monday, and a number of conservative bloggers had picked up on the item by Tuesday.

Williams said the church had received 80 to 85 e-mails and phone calls by Tuesday, "from churches and individuals around the country to express their concern and general disgust for what happened on Sunday."

Nick De Leeuw of RightMichigan said he got his account of the incident from a church member who was there.

.......................................

I won't bother to post video. News services have it on line.

What is pathetic is that KustmAce always walks into a thread trying to look like a saint taking the side of the liberal defendants and then saying that arguments or people agianst his ideas that are going to come in are just going to be prejudice. Sure, keep walking around in the beautiful liberal mind you have with the idea that nobody could have a legitamate stance to go agianst your ideologies.

What is pathetic is that KustmAce always walks into a thread trying to look like a saint taking the side of the liberal defendants and then saying that arguments or people agianst his ideas that are going to come in are just going to be prejudice. Sure, keep walking around in the beautiful liberal mind you have with the idea that nobody could have a legitamate stance to go agianst your ideologies.

:rofl:

If you have a legitimate stance, please, lets hear it.

If the anti gay agenda is in the defense of marriage as an institution to be admired then why do their proponents reduce it to just to a matter of reproductive lust?

The Christian view of marriage seems to be to copulate regularly and “Go forth and multiply”. How spiritual.

Gay marriage seems to be about a union of souls dedicating themselves to each other for a life time regardless of all the challenges to their love for each other, both internal and external.

Drop the idea's of sexual acts out of your dirty minds and look at the real people and emotions and real consequences to those who are you're daughters, sons, cousins and friends .
:iagree: Well said!!

Vinny, I have been married (to a woman) for 15 years and am straight. But if (I should say when, because it's happnened) a gay man has made a pass at me, I am and flattered by the sentiment. I am secure in myself enough to accept the attention as a compliment and leave it at that.
Studies have shown that gay men (and lesbians too) tend to be better educated than the general public. They are not stupid; when they realize I am straight, they are bright enough to let the issue drop graciously.

America maintains a philosophy of 'pursuit of happiness', individual freedoms etc. It is IMHO un-American for some to deny gay people the right to be happy; to pursue the lifestyle that suits them when it does no harm to others.

This kind of denial of basic human freedoms (based on orientation) is worthy of Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia and brutal, militant Islamic states. (Those regimes did and still do oppress gays.) I am surprised that some Americans tolerates this kind of utterly unfair and unjustified oppression of gay people. It is wrong.
Many Americans bravely fought and died to oppose such discriminatory regimes. So why allow it at home??

Yes, I realize that Proposition 8 was passed by a majority of voters. It is commendable that the California government took the time for the voters to have a say on the issue.
But that does not mean the outcome is right. The majority of people in Germany in the 1930's and 40's supported the Nazi government in its oppression of Jews. Does that make it right??? No, or course not.

(Edit: I do not blame the voters who passed Proposition 8. I am sure they believe they are doing the right thing. However, the gay/lesbian community has to better inform the public of their side of the issue)

There are plenty of examples of the government having to take action to protect the interests of a minority of people who are being oppressed. In this case, a minority group ARE being unfairly oppressed, yet the government lets it happen. It is wrong, wrong, wrong.
I am thankful that the gay/lesbian community will fight this misguided law in the courts. I am confident that in the end the American judiciary system will arrive at a fair, equitable and balanced decision.

BTW my province (Ontario) allows gay marriage and has done for many years. Our society is still moral; the sky has not fallen; God has not condemned us (except with snow, it seems).
The vast majority of people here accept this because it helps to build a better and happier society. It is good for people to be tolerant and free of prejudice, regardless of the circumstances.
Gay marriage in itself harms no one. But it makes the people involved happy. And isn't that all any of us want in life; to be happy?

:rofl:

If you have a legitimate stance, please, lets hear it.

Truth be told, I don't really care what they do. On that issue, I am impartial to one side or the other. However, there are some people who feel morally that marriage should be between a man and a woman, that's fine. And I just don't see how someone could "choose" to be hetero or homosexual. It just does not seem fesible that I take for instance, could just all the sudden say, "I am not going to be a heterosexual anymore." At the same time, do I want them to get married? I don't know, it's a tough issue I think. But one thing I do try to do is accept that there may be reasons that people who believe different on a subject may in fact have a legitimate reason instead of attacking them before they have a chance to make a stance. :2cents:

Not typically venturing into this forum, I'm surprised that no one has yet cited the Keith Olbermann comment on Proposition 8.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HpTBF6EfxY

If your next-door hetero married couple has no real impact on your life, why would your next-door homosexual couple have any other meaning? If you're indifferent, that doesn't mean you even have to vote on it... It would appear to me as though those who were indifferent just opted to let the passionate majority (whether "right or wrong") take their stance.

As for the Black and Latino populations voting for Prop 8, it's largely against their culture to be gay. I happen to know a number of gay black teens and they are ostracized and/or beaten and attacked. One girl in particular has permanent facial scars all across her face from an attack just because she is gay. I don't know many Latinos, but given what I know of Latin culture, it appears to be rooted in masculinity rather than femininity.

As for the Black and Latino populations voting for Prop 8, it's largely against their culture to be gay. I happen to know a number of gay black teens and they are ostracized and/or beaten and attacked. One girl in particular has permanent facial scars all across her face from an attack just because she is gay. I don't know many Latinos, but given what I know of Latin culture, it appears to be rooted in masculinity rather than femininity.

At the risk of sounding racist, these cultures do place a lot of importance on masculinity, and generally are pretty sexist. It is a broad generalization, but if you have ever spent time in Mexico, or watch or listen to pretty much any black entertainment, then you know what I'm talking about. Sexism is the root of all homophobia.

BTW my province (Ontario) allows gay marriage and has done for many years. Our society is still moral; the sky has not fallen; God has not condemned us (except with snow, it seems).


How do you know for sure? :uhoh:...... :lol: And you can have the snow. :tongue:

But seriously. Speaking of a can of worms and morality how does adultery apply to gays and same sex marriages? There are also legal issues like grounds for divorce. Adultery is not a crime in any jurisdiction of the U.S. that I know of but a moral issue and raised in many divorces. In the U.S. Military it is enforced under the UCMJ and punishable.

For example the New Hampshire State Supreme Court struck down a divorce lawsuit where one spouse (man) claimed the other was having extramarital sex with another female. The Justices ruled that it is not adultery since the females were the same sex or something to that effect. :screwy: These issues have to get resolved IMO, otherwise it all doesn't make sense.

Adultery is not a crime in any jurisdiction of the U.S. that I know of

It's still illegal in Idaho, both adultery and fornication. A cop in town near here lost his job because he was fornicating with his live in girlfriend. Idaho also no longer allows common law marriages.

In many states, including Idaho, sex outside marriage is against the law, and that includes consensual sex between teenagers. Sex outside marriage, whether "fornication" or "adultery" from a legal standpoint, is punishable by both a fine and imprisonment.

But seriously. Speaking of a can of worms and morality how does adultery apply to gays and same sex marriages? There are also legal issues like grounds for divorce. Adultery is not a crime in any jurisdiction of the U.S. that I know of but a moral issue and raised in many divorces. In the U.S. Military it is enforced under the UCMJ and punishable.

For example the New Hampshire State Supreme Court struck down a divorce lawsuit where one spouse (man) claimed the other was having extramarital sex with another female. The Justices ruled that it is not adultery since the females were the same sex or something to that effect. :screwy: These issues have to get resolved IMO, otherwise it all doesn't make sense.
Normally, common sense would say that the same standards apply as found in hetero marriages. However, if it comes right down to what particular 'acts' constitute adultery, there may have to be some legal prescidents set. IMHO part of the argument would have to be the context of the 'act' or the seriousness of the adulterous relationship............ or else we will end up with a Clinton-esque muddle about what constitutes sexual relations.

Marriage is not an institution that the government should be concerned with at all. I am morally opposed to the homosexual lifestyle. However, I am not legally opposed to it. It seems the majority of Americans have forgotten that these 2 concepts can be separate.

I see no legitimate reason why the government should ever be involved in the process of marriage. The only time I could see a need for legislation concerning marriage would be in the event of divorce for the distribution of assets. But, even in that case I think that responsibility should lie with the people getting married. Prenuptial agreements or a practice of putting everything in both of their names could alleviate these concerns.

Summary: Less government, thanks.

Marry a goat for all I care.

Just don't expect me to help support your 'Thomas' offspring.













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To be honest with ya'll, I could care less whether or not same-sex people get married or not. Just keep it out of the press. Same for any other kind of marriage, whatever you prefer, just keep it out of the press and quit making such a big frigin deal out of the dumbest shit. Who cares who gets married. if you want to get married to somebody, go effing marry the person. Just don't impose you lifestyle upon those who are different. Neither side can make a good argument with who is right. There are more important things to worry about in this world and country. For example, the global financial state, the war on Terrorism, the Piracy issues and many other threatening situations happening or about to happen. Let the people who would prefer same-sex marriage have thier way and let the people who prefer opposite-sex marriage have thier way. Everybody needs to get off everybody elses back. We only drag eachother down with this 'he said' 'she said' bs. Remember that what one person considers gross and discusting is just fun and a kick ass time for another, for example, your typical woman, note I didn't say all but the most that I have met, don't like to get thier hands up into an engine because it's dirty, whereas just about any guy I know will dive headfirst into any engine rebuild project. Why might that be you ask? Because every person is different. Let em be. One mans/womans trash is another mans/womans treasure. Why should people be tortured and drilled on thier way of life? It doesn't present any medically unhealthy issues that I am aware of so it can't be argued that way. Immoral? That is a matter of religious opinion. Keep it to yourself and your god(s). Each religion poses it's own strong points, but each has it's weak points when challenged with another religion. That can't be used as a real and legal fighting point. Seperation of Church and State. If anybody disagrees with any particular point, I'm sorry. I am stating my personal opinion. I always enjoy reading/hearing other people's opinions and I state my own where I think it would be appreciated.:smokin:
:2gay:

What we viewed as marriage today is nothing from what was considered marriage thousands of years ago, 100 years ago or even a mere 30 years.

I downloaded this webpage (http://www.santafemods.com/Society/HistoryofMarriage.htm) years ago while doing an essay on marriage for college, and athough it no longer exists at the original sites, I uploaded it to my website since it still enlightens one on how marriage has changed throughout the years. What was surprising was the fact that the Catholic church legitimized same sex couples for over 1500 years up until the 1800s.

Mind you its a long read, but quite eye-opening.

Personally I don't care what its called, marriage, unions etc, so long as the same rights (estate, hospital visits) and benefits (tax filings) etc are the same.

TS out