Red Bull Causing Problems

Well after all the crap us modeler's went through with the cigarette advertisers, now it's RedBull's turn. It seems their lawyers are after every single kit, decal whatever. Sending out cease and desist orders, laying down royalties due blah blah blah. It's FREE advertising you MORONS! I know I won't be buying that urine colored and tasting drink.

I think it even extends to ebay. So I won't be able to sell my transkit for the Ferrari 360. I won't build it now.

Which transkit is it, the Scale Productions?
Nic

Well after all the crap us modeler's went through with the cigarette advertisers, now it's RedBull's turn. It seems their lawyers are after every single kit, decal whatever. Sending out cease and desist orders, laying down royalties due blah blah blah. It's FREE advertising you MORONS! I know I won't be buying that urine colored and tasting drink.

I think it even extends to ebay. So I won't be able to sell my transkit for the Ferrari 360. I won't build it now.

Don't have that mind set. If you still obtained the kits while it was legal, you can still build them.:2cents:

Yes, the scale productions.

My mind set is: Red Bull are greedy jackasses and I don't want to help "support" them. I don't want to build it, not that I think I can't.

Well, Scale Production´s site is down at the moment!! Something to do with this??

Yup heard that before...
Well what about progress threads? Anybody knows what they think about that?

HI

I heard in Japan are problems too with F1 models ???:headshake



Mikezibit

Red Bull are greedy jackasses and I don't want to help "support" them.

Don't have that mindset, either.

It's FREE advertising you MORONS!

The 'free advertising' argument is long since dead and irrelevant. And the issue is not greed for Red Bull- it is protection. No major corporation today believes it can afford the risk of allowing unauthorized, unlicensed use of its trademark. Red Bull does not really care about a few thousand Euro for licensing- but they certainly will use it to discourage unauthorized use of their logos. It is not about 'supporting' a hobby for them- it is about protecting their interests, and they will be protected vigorously.

This is why we see no new kits of modern F1 or WRC cars. Take the 06/07/08 Ford Focus WRC. Fantastic car, and it would be a very popular seller. But not only would Ford's participation have to be purchased- each sponsor would have to be individually appeased, also. BP, Castrol, BF Goodrich, Karcher, etc would all have to allow use of their trademarks. And in the current global market, it simply isn't practical.

Thinking of it as companies out to destroy modeling or being greedy is rather smallminded. They do not care about modeling, nor could they. Companies simply cannot allow the sorts of liberties with their trademarks that were overlooked a decade ago. And the fact that it effects our hobby is purely incidental.

From reading rants on other hobby sites, it seems there is a fair amount of "dropping the dime" on each other out there. Someone pointed Hugo Pratt towards the Ace (think it was Ace) Model of the Hugo Pratt Ligier which opened a can of worms. If you think about it though, it's not fair to the companies like Tamiya that pay for licenses. That's why I switched from S27 F1 kits to any other manufacturer of sports cars. More kit for the buck and not so "super secret".

I'm sure it is why Scale Productions is down, he has other RedBull items that are from other vendors on his site. They are clamping on everybody.

Nice well thought out analysis Mpower, but I'm not buying it. It is not about protecting Identity. We aren't applying their logo to a "drink RB and Jaegy till you puke" rallies.

We aren't applying their logo to a "drink RB and Jaegy till you puke" rallies.

That's certainly true. Our usage is probably one of the most benign ways their logos would be used. But they have to draw the line, and they really don't have the time and resources to consider every use. It's far cheaper, more practical and legally safer for them to ban all such uses. Small and harmless as we may seem, they can't really allow some exceptions and prohibit everything else.

And yes, they're aware it may piss us off, and that they may loose our support. But that's maybe potentially thousands lost, as opposed to the potential millions that a major copyright problem might cost.

Wow, Red Bull and Jagermeister? It really wouldn't take much of that to get me puking. :grinno:

Well after all the crap us modeler's went through with the cigarette advertisers, now it's RedBull's turn. It seems their lawyers are after every single kit, decal whatever. Sending out cease and desist orders, laying down royalties due blah blah blah. It's FREE advertising you MORONS! I know I won't be buying that urine colored and tasting drink.

I think it even extends to ebay. So I won't be able to sell my transkit for the Ferrari 360. I won't build it now.

its pretty sad, they ceased the production of the STR3/RBR4 models and decals already. and S27/FS models were going to produce the STR2/RBR3 models also. but now thats dead in the water, such a shame.

I just hope I the model in my sig will still come to my doorstep, but goodnews is that it went through customs :p:

As far as I know they pursue it in the EU only, at the moment. This means you could still buy stuff in countries outside the EU and/or Switzerland. Still, instead of sending multi-page-lawyer-speak documents to small model manufacturers and retailers (which could go bankrupt, btw) they could just send a fax, politely asking that the items concerned be removed from the shop. I bet most shops would accept that and stop selling the unlicensed products immediately. I'm really looking forward to what they want from ebay. Compensation payments? There could be a huge lawsuit on the horizon - and I bet RB will rather suffer than succeed. Maybe that's only wishful thinking...

Anyway, I wish all the small manufacturers and retailers all the best. All we can do is support them by buying the products w/o licensing issues (decals).

grundski- But if you did build the unlicensed model, that would be the complete opposite of supporting them.

I guess that means I'll just have to use my generic RB decals in place.
Red Thunder!!! The logo is not as flashy, but at least my model won't be in the sights of RB's legal department. Just imagine;)

http://generic-redbull.azmyth.com/images/can.jpg

It's far cheaper, more practical and legally safer for them to ban all such uses.

And it surely protects them from thinking or using their brain in any way.
Sorry, but this whole "protection" thing is just bull-shit to me. :thumbsdow

it´s ridiculous, not less or more...

Fortunately, i do not buy this disgusting Swiss dishwater and for sure won´t do now!

I can't believe it. Just because they don't want us to buy decals from people(and so on) you aren't going to build cars with those liveries? If you wanted so bad, you would still get them somehow. Or in the old old days when you make your own everything.

And it surely protects them from thinking or using their brain in any way.
Sorry, but this whole "protection" thing is just bull-shit to me. :thumbsdow

it´s ridiculous, not less or more...

Fortunately, i do not buy this disgusting Swiss dishwater and for sure won´t do now!

I agree with you!

PS: It's Austrian, not Swiss! But sure something not worth buying and even less worth drinking.

I can't believe it. Just because they don't want us to buy decals from people(and so on) you aren't going to build cars with those liveries? If you wanted so bad, you would still get them somehow. Or in the old old days when you make your own everything.

They don't care about us using their logos. Let's be serious.
I understand the cigarette producers legal position up to a point, cause there are laws prohibiting the publicity of their products, but Red Bull is not in their position!

RedBull only saw a possibility to earn more money, that's all.

I'll have to build my Revell BMW OTM kit one of these days, I wonder if Revell had bought a licence to use them RedBull logos, but I think I'll do it anyway! :D

It's Austrian, not Swiss!

Ups! You´re right, of course! Mixed it up because of their strange cartoon TV-spots.
At least every Red Bull for the American market is bottled in Switzerland. :icon16:

I agree with Mpower analysis in many aspect, it is abut protecting an asset for corporate from any form of abuse. However what I don't agree with is they don't want to license models/kits, the reality today it is looked at as one stream of revenue for them, not necessarily now but in the near future. Look to Ferrari income from Licenses to models, kits, cloths...etc it is generating big dollar income help funds a huge program like their F1 participation.

I understand the cigarette producers legal position up to a point, cause there are laws prohibiting the publicity of their products, but Red Bull is not in their position!

:iagree:

I think everybody should calm down a bit...a few month back there was the same thing going on with Marlboros...and did it change anything, no big deal. you can get the Mdecals still everywhere on the net.

Some will go for RB, no I know why S27 is selling theri RB F1 cars and decals seperate.

I'm also sure redbull doesn't really need the licensing money. I think they don't do their calulation in the 100.000$ ranges more the big millions...btw. they have two F1 teams, so money shouldn't be an issue there.

It's more a protection thing. I rember doing an 3Danimated TV spot for a big US chewing gum company...we got the strict rule not to raise their right arm for waving, because they feared the danger of someone taking this one frame and say the characters are "nazis" because of the right arm....totally idiotic but the idiots arent the companies but more the people who take such a picture and say they are doing nazi-cartoon-figures

hope you get the point.

daniel
-germany-

I agree with Mpower analysis in many aspect, it is abut protecting an asset for corporate from any form of abuse. However what I don't agree with is they don't want to license models/kits, the reality today it is looked at as one stream of revenue for them, not necessarily now but in the near future. Look to Ferrari income from Licenses to models, kits, cloths...etc it is generating big dollar income help funds a huge program like their F1 participation.


You have just proved my original point. It's about money. Period.

Daniel, no you are wrong, it is not calming down. Marlboro's were a different story. I have now found out that DHL is on the hunt as well. I just had a really terrible experience with DHL not delivering an overnight package for 10 days. And now they want licensing money from model kits? :screwy:

This is going to kill the small garage shops that produce the back-markers, so to speak, that we all want. Shops can't afford the legal fees, royalty fees etc. And will go out of business and get regular jobs. I've done decals, PE sets and more in this industry and these guys don't make a living on this stuff. Heck, the guys selling these products have two jobs. :banghead:

I invite everyone here who doesn't understand the concept of copyright and intellectual property to come and work for me for 6 months.

I won't pay you any money but I WILL tell everyone how good you are and give you free advertising. Does that work for you?

I invite everyone here who doesn't understand the concept of copyright and intellectual property to come and work for me for 6 months.

I won't pay you any money but I WILL tell everyone how good you are and give you free advertising. Does that work for you?

You're great as ever, and right too.

But.... on the other hand you're also half of gi**e*sky :D, with all related issues :D :D :D

You're great as ever, and right too.

But.... on the other hand you're also half of gi**e*sky :D, with all related issues :D :D :D
:D Absolutely.

I am just saying let's not pretend that we don't understand that the owners of the copyrights have the right to do whatever they wish with them and that it's not unreasonable if they want people to stop using their property without permission (aka stealing).

We might not like it. We might wish it was otherwise. But they are not bloodsucking monsters for protecting their interests.

I will still buy after market decals, transkits and resin kits in the full knowledge that, in many cases, the products are probably infringing copyrights. But I also won't act surprised and pretend innocence when the brand owners say "please stop doing that!". :)

Klutz, I have contacted companies equally as big as Red Bull and DHL requesting logo's to make decals. You know what the response was? One guess my friend...They sent me VECTOR art of their logo. You can get UPS's logo full vector art on their website. So all you who keep chiming in about identity protection and not about money wake up. I work in advertising in the US and have been through countless corporate Identity manuals and I know the drill.

Fine, have it your way your right. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. So now everyone will be paying high royalties and that cost gets passed you you the modeler so when your paying $30 for a small sheet of decals, don't bitch.

I agree with grundski, I know several companies which are quite relaxed about their logos. I even asked my company's lawyer what he thinks about the case. He said he'd request a reference model/decal sheet and if the logo is done properly, meaning it represents the original as close as possible, he (the company) would grant permission w/o charging any fees. He feels about it as we (hmm... most of us) feel: it is free-of-charge advertising.

Companies like F*rrari and now R.B. have a different views of course. Legally they are right.... but common sense is something entirely different :banghead:

:D Absolutely.

I am just saying let's not pretend that we don't understand that the owners of the copyrights have the right to do whatever they wish with them and that it's not unreasonable if they want people to stop using their property without permission (aka stealing).

We might not like it. We might wish it was otherwise. But they are not bloodsucking monsters for protecting their interests.

I will still buy after market decals, transkits and resin kits in the full knowledge that, in many cases, the products are probably infringing copyrights. But I also won't act surprised and pretend innocence when the brand owners say "please stop doing that!". :)

There's a difference between what's legal and what's ethically right!
Also from a legal POV, modelers by reproducing any company's logo are not prejudicing them. We aren't producing some bull piss and than stick the RedBull logo on it.

Grundski, Seb and Ioan - IMHO you are so far off the reservation.

On a point of order, I've been working in advertising and marketing for 20 years in the largest international agencies and on the largest international brands. I know the drill as well as you do - maybe better since I am used to BUYING the rights to use copyrighted materials for use in advertising.

Grundski, if I am reading your post correctly, you ASKED them for the logos and they AGREED to supply them. This post has it's origins in the brand owners' unwillingness to see their property being used for commercial gain WITHOUT their permission. If you don't see the difference, I can't help that.
(BTW Corporate ID manuals set out the guidelines for proper application of the elements of corporate ID such as logos, colors, positionings etc. in order to ensure consistency in how the brand is visually represented in various situations and media it has little or nothing to do with the RIGHT to use it).

Big international brands require management in order to maintain their value. Dipsh*t free advertising through decal sheets doesn't mean squat in that perspective. I have no idea why some companies chose to "pick" on scale modelling and why others don't. I am just saying that if they do make that decision, it's their right and let's not act surprised or pretend that we didn't know that the decals were being produced basically illegally.

It's funny that sometimes I have seen posts here when someone has been caught posting another modellers' work as their own (or even using one guy's model of a car claiming it was his 1/1!). In those cases there were rants about what a$$$holes they were to steal another guys work and how he should have asked first etc etc.

Anyone ever heard of "practice what you preach" or "do unto others as you would have them do to you"? ;)

Over & Out and peace to all :ylsuper:

Grundski, Seb and Ioan - IMHO you are so far off the reservation.

Why? Because I say that what they are doing is unethical? I don't think that I'm wrong saying that.


Big international brands require management in order to maintain their value. Dipsh*t free advertising through decal sheets doesn't mean squat in that perspective.

And how exactly does using a decal, on a car that already ran with their logo all over it, does devalue their brand?!

Steven, I'm ready to agree with you if you can make a point on how is that modelers devalue a brand by using it to recreate reality at a smaller scale.

Klutz, I have contacted companies equally as big as Red Bull and DHL requesting logo's to make decals. You know what the response was? One guess my friend...They sent me VECTOR art of their logo. You can get UPS's logo full vector art on their website. So all you who keep chiming in about identity protection and not about money wake up.

Out of curiousity, did you do this in order to manufacture and sell decal sheets? Not knowing the conversation, I'd have to guess that if they knew you were going to produce and sell decal sheets to make a profit for yourself, their response would be different.

I think they'd better spend much time in producing good drinks than in boring us all...
The fact that most economy is based on the marketing and not on the market is giving its results in these days. All over the world.

Just a thought but ever wonder if it's possible that companies like Revell, Scalectrix, Carrera, Minichamps... etc, who may have legitimately paid a fee for the right to use the logo have become upset with those that compete against them, without the rights to do so, in the same line of business and filed a complaint with Redbu!! ?

I know if I owned a company who paid a fee for the privelage to use a logo for the purpose of earning revenue and making a profit and someone who did not pay a fee or have permission but illegally chose to "use" the logo anyway and took business/sales away from me I would file a complaint and demand that Redbu!! put a stop to it. Redbu!! could be sued by the companies that paid a legitimate fee if they don't put a stop to to those who didn't.

Just a thought but ever wonder if it's possible that companies like Revell, Scalectrix, Carrera, Minichamps... etc, who may have legitimately paid a fee for the right to use the logo have become upset with those that compete against them, without the rights to do so, in the same line of business and filed a complaint with Redbu!! ?

I know if I owned a company who paid a fee for the privelage to use a logo for the purpose of earning revenue and making a profit and someone who did not pay a fee or have permission but illegally chose to "use" the logo anyway and took business/sales away from me I would file a complaint and demand that Redbu!! put a stop to it. Redbu!! could be sued by the companies that paid a legitimate fee if they don't put a stop to to those who didn't.
EXCELLENT point. That is also a very plausible reason.
I ran a bit close to the wind once with an ad campaign loosely connected to Star Wars and Pepsi, who were an official sponsor product for the movie set Lucas Films on me. They were protecting their investment just in the way you mention Eric.

I don´t think, mach1-2003´s opinion is right. Three weeks ago I was at the Nürburgring and at a modelshop near Döttinger Höhe I saw Red Bull models in 1:18 (Autoart BMW M3 GTR, Aston Marin DBR9, GT3R) and a Citroen C4 from Norev.

The C4, DBR9 and M3GTR are newer models with an additional sticker on the box showing that these items are licenced by Red Bull. This licence sticker came probably later to the box, because on older boxes I just could see stickers like „Licenced by Porsche“ (GT3R) etc.

You also find older Red Bull Minichamps F1 models without the „Licenced by Red Bull“ sticker and you won´t find this sticker (or a similar hint) for licencing f.e. on Revell´s BMW 320 Red Bull Racing kit or the Tamiya motorbike-kit.

Another Red Bull model I found at that model shop was the 1:87 VW Touareg by Schuco, on the box just „Licenced by VW“, the same with lots of 1:43 models, you just find stickers with „Licenced by ….(car company)“, no one „Licenced by Red Bull“



Mikezibit:wave:

Well, if I had ever given my opinion you have every right to disagree with it. I never said "In my opinion this is what's happening". I only brought it up as a point to ponder.

However, your point regarding new boxes having the license and old boxes not having it could possibly add more strength to my point. Maybe when Redbull was not making an issue out of licensing the box did not have the statement. Now that Redbull is making an issue out of it the box does have the "Licensed by Redbull" statement.

My point is this, as an example: Lets imagine that I owned Autoart (which I do not) and I paid a significant amount of money to have the "rights" to use the Redbull name and logo. I do this because I want to produce a Redbull F1 diecast replica and sell it to everyone that would like to buy a Redbull F1 diecast replica (diecast model). Then lets imagine that you own a company that produces resin cast F1 models and you decide to produce a Redbull version of an F1 car and sell it to everyone that wants to buy one. Now, lets imagine that you are selling the resin model for $100 but I have to sell my diecast for $200 because I have to recover the large fee that I paid to get the right to use the Redbull name and logo, yet, you can under sell me because you didn't pay for the rights and you have no major investment to recover. I lose business and I lose money on my investment because you choose to do something illegal.

I (the imaginary owner of Autoart) would be very pissed at you for causing me to lose money. Since I don't own Redbull I can't come after your company. But because I have an agreement with Redbull I can go after them for allowing you to use their logo without the rights to do so. I would force them to go after you and require you to pay the fee I paid or I would force them to make you stop using the name and logo so I get my market edge back, the market edge I paid for. If they didn't force your company and other comapnies like yours to stop I would sue them to get my money back. If this happens what do you think Redbull is going to do?

That is the point I was making. It's not my opinion that I think it's happeneing it's just a possibility, a thought. My thoughts could be wrong (and usually are :naughty: :evillol: ) just like your thoughts could be wrong unless you work for Redbull and have the facts.

The only "opinion" I have is that I think it sucks that the larger companies (think tires without sidewall lettering, etc...) charge such outrageous fees that make it impossible for the smaller companies to obtain the rights to use the name and logo for something so harmless as modeling. I have no opinion about what I think is really going on. I don't work for any company involved nor do I know anybody that works for any company involved therefore I have no clue what the real issue is.... I only have thoughts about the many possibilities that it could be. I chose to post about this possibility because many of the others had already been posted.

I understand, what you want to express. But for a little aftermarket-company it isn´t profitable and worth the effort to get a licence for maybe 100 decals. Lets say, the company gets 5% licence fees, that are perhaps 50 Euro in this case.


Bigger kit or model producer like Autoart or Minichamps have an immense output, and for the sponsors it makes sense ot demand licence fees, but not all companies make that. Some tire producing companies see it as a free promotion, when their logos stick on modelcars.


If it is possible to make so much money with licence fees from aftermarket companies, why didn´t RB started this until now? – This section of the market isn´t new, in the last 20 years nearly nobody was interested in what the aftermarket produced ?


And the companies I´m thinking about have a bigger value than RB








Mikezibit:smokin:

you are completely missing the point:
that it also stands to reason that third part is insisting that whatever company enforce the protection of it's own branding.

Well, if I had ever given my opinion you have every right to disagree with it. I never said "In my opinion this is what's happening". I only brought it up as a point to ponder.

However, your point regarding new boxes having the license and old boxes not having it could possibly add more strength to my point. Maybe when Redbull was not making an issue out of licensing the box did not have the statement. Now that Redbull is making an issue out of it the box does have the "Licensed by Redbull" statement.

My point is this, as an example: Lets imagine that I owned Autoart (which I do not) and I paid a significant amount of money to have the "rights" to use the Redbull name and logo. I do this because I want to produce a Redbull F1 diecast replica and sell it to everyone that would like to buy a Redbull F1 diecast replica (diecast model). Then lets imagine that you own a company that produces resin cast F1 models and you decide to produce a Redbull version of an F1 car and sell it to everyone that wants to buy one. Now, lets imagine that you are selling the resin model for $100 but I have to sell my diecast for $200 because I have to recover the large fee that I paid to get the right to use the Redbull name and logo, yet, you can under sell me because you didn't pay for the rights and you have no major investment to recover. I lose business and I lose money on my investment because you choose to do something illegal.

I (the imaginary owner of Autoart) would be very pissed at you for causing me to lose money. Since I don't own Redbull I can't come after your company. But because I have an agreement with Redbull I can go after them for allowing you to use their logo without the rights to do so. I would force them to go after you and require you to pay the fee I paid or I would force them to make you stop using the name and logo so I get my market edge back, the market edge I paid for. If they didn't force your company and other comapnies like yours to stop I would sue them to get my money back. If this happens what do you think Redbull is going to do?

That is the point I was making. It's not my opinion that I think it's happeneing it's just a possibility, a thought. My thoughts could be wrong (and usually are :naughty: :evillol: ) just like your thoughts could be wrong unless you work for Redbull and have the facts.

The only "opinion" I have is that I think it sucks that the larger companies (think tires without sidewall lettering, etc...) charge such outrageous fees that make it impossible for the smaller companies to obtain the rights to use the name and logo for something so harmless as modeling. I have no opinion about what I think is really going on. I don't work for any company involved nor do I know anybody that works for any company involved therefore I have no clue what the real issue is.... I only have thoughts about the many possibilities that it could be. I chose to post about this possibility because many of the others had already been posted.

Only that Die-cast collectors and model builders aren't the same people, so a die-cast producer isn't losing market share because of a resin or plastic kit.

Only that Die-cast collectors and model builders aren't the same people, so a die-cast producer isn't losing market share because of a resin or plastic kit.

Doesn't matter and not relevent and even untrue if you ask some people.

It's still a (possible) case of someone who paid complaining that other aren't paying. Doesn't matter if the branding is on a model car, a pen or a packet of condoms.

Doesn't matter and not relevent and even untrue if you ask some people.

Quantify "some people".


It's still a (possible) case of someone who paid complaining that other aren't paying. Doesn't matter if the branding is on a model car, a pen or a packet of condoms.

Tell me how do you think that those who pay know that the others aren't?!

And before I forget, these situations would never have arisen if big corporations weren't willing to make money, even if only small amounts through these licensing contracts, while they are paying big money for advertising.

No matter how we turn it, the matter and the blame lies with those owning the trade marks i.e. the RedCow piss producers.

Who some people are also doesn't matter because that is not the point being made.

Tell me how do you think that those who pay know that the others aren't?!

The easy way is to ask the brand owner if company x paid for the use of the brand.
Y'know, they do have legal departments dedicated to this sort of thing.

Who some people are also doesn't matter because that is not the point being made.

I don't want their names, I just wanted you to quantify "some people", it can be 1%, 5%, 10% or more.



The easy way is to ask the brand owner if company x paid for the use of the brand.
Y'know, they do have legal departments dedicated to this sort of thing.

So the die-cast and other model companies that pay for licenses also pay for people who are keeping an eye on the market to search for other product using the same brands that they have paid a license for and than ask if those also got a license?!

I'm sure this is true because I know how dumb most of the current management around the world is nowadays.
I would rather not pay tens of thousands a year for someone to search the net and instead invest the money in new products to be a step in front of the competition.

Also, how are they going to enforce copyright laws in Russia and especially China where most of the not licensed stuff comes from?!

That is actually the core problem; copyright laws are not the same in all countries nor are they enforced to the same degree.

That is why it is easier for them to target the places where they can to prevent the sales of unlicenced items which usually occurs outside of China.
A point of comparison would be how downloaders are targeted just as much as those who upload illegally.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090526.008/german-states-ban-cocaine-laced-red-bull (http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090526.008/german-states-ban-cocaine-laced-red-bull)

Whether it's Red Bull :loser: or a big Red Dick whose going to see a model build then stick in a display cabinet for my wife myself & a few friends who call in every now & then no one, firts it was cigarette companies:loser: (that don't worry me) then NASCAR:loser: and some other companies well one day they'll end up all broke just like G.M. & Chrysler :loser: and wonder why because model companies and model builders alike took a stand stop building and buying their products and presto no Red Bull or should I say NO BULL any more and any other company who thinks it's neat to say no more copyright of our gear they all fall in the end and we will eventually win.

Dingo :cool: