Aero comparisons....

So in another thread we started talking about the benefits of the aero on the car. So, since i am planning my aero mods I have been playing around with some CFD data........here are some results so far.

It's just a 2d rendering, so its not 100% accurate, but it gives you an idea......

talk amongst yourselves...

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96240&g2_serialNumber=1

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96235&g2_serialNumber=2
http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96229&g2_serialNumber=2
http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96238&g2_serialNumber=2
http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96232&g2_serialNumber=2



Don't know if any of you care, but I do so :tongue:

Nice analytical work. Why do you say that since it's only 2-D that its not accurate? Sure the cross section changes, but it cure gives you a good idea of pressure regions. From what I can see, the rear wing needs to be as higher or slightly higher than the roof line so have much impact. The splitter doesn't seem to alter flow much. But it's a balancing act. A bit of down force up front and a bit in the rear is beneifical. What am I missing?

Nice analytical work. Why do you say that since it's only 2-D that its not accurate? Sure the cross section changes, but it cure gives you a good idea of pressure regions. From what I can see, the rear wing needs to be as higher or slightly higher than the roof line so have much impact. The splitter doesn't seem to alter flow much. But it's a balancing act. A bit of down force up front and a bit in the rear is beneifical. What am I missing?

you are spot on with you analysis. The wing needs to be as high as possible to be the most effective.

The reason i said it was 2d and not 100% accurate is it doesnt take into account the holes in the front bumper, and the gaping hols under he car and other misc data, but you are right its a basic analysis to help fine tune the aero on the car.

hay guys when they buit the panoz car it need to cost efficient if my memory is right the wing need to be back 12inch and up 6in or 9in with a 1/4 in grannie

hay guys take look at the old panoz trans am car that will give you some ideal about the wing spilter fender flars that thing was a rocket ship when it was builtit had 550 to 600 ponys the driver was borsie said

Our wings need more cowbell.

Why would putting the wing too low save anything on cost? I can understand using the plastic front air dam vs. a true splitter, but not making the spoiler work out back.

Why would putting the wing too low save anything on cost? I can understand using the plastic front air dam vs. a true splitter, but not making the spoiler work out back.

Extra $5 in aluminum?

Why would putting the wing too low save anything on cost? I can understand using the plastic front air dam vs. a true splitter, but not making the spoiler work out back.
Yes, I've wondered this same thing too. I've heard from several sources that the positioning of the wing renders it non-functional. I personally don't know if this is true or not, but apparently there is at least some truth to it.

So why waste the money even putting it on the car? Looks?

Ive spoken to some folks close to Panoz as well who said the same thing, they wanted a spec series and wanted to keep the speeds "low" the car was actually faster without the wing but the car looked goofy without it. So, they put it low to keep it as worthless as possible but made the car look better.

Hmmm... The GTS isn't a spec race car though. Only the GT-WCs were/are.

Hmmm... The GTS isn't a spec race car though. Only the GT-WCs were/are.

GTS was a spec car.

GTS was a spec car.
I thought the GTS was designed to run in GT2 or something? Not race against other GTS'.

I thought the GTS was designed to run in GT2 or something? Not race against other GTS'.

http://www.panozauto.com/EsperanteGTSDetails.htm

The Panoz GTS is built from the ground up as a driver's class spec racer....

I guess at the end of the day it takes extra horsepower to push a car along that has a lot of downforce (i.e. Panoz's experience with testing with and without the wing). I expect that with the low hp that most of our cars have, we may find extra front and rear downforce will slow them down due to reduced straight line speed. You dont get anything for nothing in this life...........

I presume that Panoz did not make the rear wing really effective for 2 reasons; 1 - it would have slowed the car down in low hp appplications (as sold) 2 - without a front splitter the car would not have been aerodynamically balanced front to rear.

While it is really tempting to modify both areas of the car, I am going to do some track testing to determine the best configuration for my application. As I am primarily building my car to suit endurance racing, I want as little drag on the car as possible. Having said that, if it is a wet race, having the option of dialing in additional downforce is appealing.

I am leaning towards having a removable splitter section on the front so that the splitter area can be changed if desired and raising the wing but also making the angle of attack adjustable so that downforce can be varied.

This discussion has me confused. I am conviced by the feel of my car that it makes good down force. I spend most of my track time at Sebring which has 3 high speed turns. I catch faster cars in those turns all the time. The car feels very stable in turns 1, Bishops Bend and 17. Yet, I struggle for grip in the slow corners like 7 and especially 16.

the panoz designers told me that the wing was taken down and out of the airstream in order to move it out of the way so that backing the rear of the car into a tire wall would not do too much damage. this was done to keep maintenance costs on the school / spec cars down.

Panozracing and I designed new wing supports that move the wing up and back, into the airstream, and we have found that in "seat of the pants" measurements it produces much more downforce. With the old wing location, changing the angle didn't seem to do much, but with the wing in the airstream, minor adjustments make a noticable difference.

We did this mod in addition to adding a splitter.

^ Pics of splitter and modified wing supports?

Here is what Panoz26 and I are doing with ours, I may move it just a little higher and farther back.
I may be able to cut an extra set or two when i get it all dialed in if anyone wants a set. They will all be waterjet cut on 6061 aluminum.

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96205&g2_serialNumber=2

Also have the basic splitter design ready, going to start mounting it this week...

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96199&g2_serialNumber=2

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96214&g2_serialNumber=2
very early inthe design and prototype phase.
Think the cardboard will hold up? :lol2:

I'll be using 1/4" ABS and 1/4" alumalite which should make it light and very strong.


The splitter will extend all the way back to the rear axle and seal off the entire underside of the car, working on a way to make sure the tranny gets some proper venting also....

Here I am, sitting at work looking at your design and wondering what kind of job does this guy have that allows him so much time to play with his car??? Maybe I should have chosen more wisely during career day. :smile:

But seriously, how are you coming up with the degree your applying to your wing strut?

Here I am, sitting at work looking at your design and wondering what kind of job does this guy have that allows him so much time to play with his car??? Maybe I should have chosen more wisely during career day. :smile:

But seriously, how are you coming up with the degree your applying to your wing strut?

LOL

The degree of angle is based on the 2D aero simulations i did that seemed to provide the most DF with the least amount of drag, I built the modeling to scale its fairly easy to figure out the angle.

and some of it started out as......"hmm, how about right here!" ;-)

I'd buy a set of those wing supports for sure. As for the front splitter... well looks like the plastic car noses are a bit different than the glass ones. Mines a constant arc accross the front... not like yours.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/cobra4b/VIR%20Feb%2008/IMG_0572.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/cobra4b/VIR%20Feb%2008/IMG_0560.jpg

Here I am, sitting at work looking at your design and wondering what kind of job does this guy have that allows him so much time to play with his car??? Maybe I should have chosen more wisely during career day. :smile:

But seriously, how are you coming up with the degree your applying to your wing strut?


HAHAHAHAHA --- wait --- HAAHAHAHAHA -- wait -- HAHAHAHA
We ask him that everyday - he works like 2hrs 3 days a week ..... it's what some of would call a cush job......

Here's a pic of the Panoz Trans-am car Tiny spoke about. Boris Said won the 2002 Trans-am championship in a Panoz.
http://www.zoompics.com/2001i-7.jpg

I like this Aero set-up: Fastback, Ducktail and Wing combination

http://www.supercars.net/gallery/119513/1870/783822.jpg

If you've been following the ALMS at all you know that since they have made those body changes, that car is very competitive. They finished 4th at Laguna Seca last weekend.:bigthumb: If they were running Michelin's, I believe they would be at the front. It's an American team, car and drivers too. A rare bird in Sports car racing right now.

My brother (panozracing) and I worked with the Panoz engineer to develop these wing supports. Our supports locate the rear wing in the SAME location as the ALMS car. We can have these cut for anyone that wants a pair for $125 each ($250 for the pair) plus shipping.

As for the splitter, it bolts (or rivets) to the kydex and the existing underpan. Ours only extends to the back of the existing pan. We can have these made for anyone that wants one, but we dont have a price yet.

We have had great results with this combination. I also recommend more horsepower and bigger tires all around!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3146/2962566443_0601b8252c_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/2964222176_c0d233cc1e_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3209/2964222232_1a647d2331_o.jpg

Awesome... would like to see pics of the front splitter up on the lift whenever you can.

Awesome... would like to see pics of the front splitter up on the lift whenever you can.

So would I.....:lol: :lol:

at NASA nationals we crashed into each other and ripped the nose off the front of the black/silver car..... need to get it fixed and rolling!
http://www.catesracing.com/flp/pictures/2008_nasa_nationals/D/sun/D_SUN_RACE_IMG_055.JPG.html


watch...... not our best performance...actually our worst....
http://drivenasa.com/championships/2008-STU_SU.html

the vette shut the door on me pretty hard....but thats racing!

My brother (panozracing) and I worked with the Panoz engineer to develop these wing supports. Our supports locate the rear wing in the SAME location as the ALMS car. We can have these cut for anyone that wants a pair for $125 each ($250 for the pair) plus shipping.

the wing has 5 degrees of adjustment that was determined using CFD and in theory is max and min downforce (we have recorded better lap times with diff. settings).

^ That was great to watch! Danny posts on the Corvetteforum a bunch.

Hello,
I know I am new to the board and maybe a little late in this thread.
We were involved in the WGGT when it first started.
The rear wing is a cosmetic add on.
It was never tested in a wind tunnel.
Panoz took the LMP wing cord and shrunk it to a visably correct size for the WGGT cars. They admitted they did not know if it did anything at all.

Mike

Hello,
I know I am new to the board and maybe a little late in this thread.
We were involved in the WGGT when it first started.
The rear wing is a cosmetic add on.
It was never tested in a wind tunnel.
Panoz took the LMP wing cord and shrunk it to a visably correct size for the WGGT cars. They admitted they did not know if it did anything at all.

Mike

Welcome! and thanks for the added confirmation!

Here are some pics of our setup so far, as i said before, still early and i am tweaking the design as I go, but the threaded rods hold it VERY securley, I will also rivot it to the front airdam and seal with black silicon....

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96271&g2_serialNumber=2

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96277&g2_serialNumber=2

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96292&g2_serialNumber=2

An idea of how far back it will go....

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96298&g2_serialNumber=2


Simplicity at its best, yet EXTREMELY strong and secure, but will give some in the event of a agricultural excursion....
http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96295&g2_serialNumber=2

Will also use a set of spoiler supports upfront like my old M3 racecar..

gives a little adaptability and helps adds tension...

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=16342&g2_serialNumber=4

That looks amazing!

Yes Eric, that is amazing. Good job!

Eric;

I like the simplistic approach. I have a 4' x 8' sheet of 1/8" ABS that is just lying around the shop look for a good project. It just found a home. My GT-RA's nose attaches a bit differently, but that shouldn't affect the general approach.

One question. Do you use large head rivets to fasten the ABS to the frame rails under the car? I think there are already holes from some historic use in my frame under the car. I was thinking of using those to attach the plastic to the underbody.

^ Lemme know how you do yours. Looks like the plastic cars have some differences from the glass cars.

Yes, I will rivot or bolt(using nutserts?) the rest of the undertray to the frame of the car.

Thanks for all the compliments! We have a template of the panel so if any of you "glass" guys want one we ca cut them relatively cheap... OR if someone with a plastic body wants to trace the bumper contour on cardboard and send it to me I can cut those also.

http://dcazin.c4-motorsports.com/IMG_7304%20[1024x768].JPG

http://dcazin.c4-motorsports.com/IMG_7305%20[1024x768].JPG

Did both of you guys repaint your cars? I'm seeing tons of rock chips. Not that it matters on a race car, but our plastic car was painted by Penske prior to use getting it and after 4 HPDEs this year with both my father and I using the car each weekend (dual use) it's not chipped like that at all.

Did both of you guys repaint your cars? I'm seeing tons of rock chips. Not that it matters on a race car, but our plastic car was painted by Penske prior to use getting it and after 4 HPDEs this year with both my father and I using the car each weekend (dual use) it's not chipped like that at all.

yes,

A)the pics make it look worse than it is... some of the spots are just dirt and dust reflecting from the flash

B) the paint did chip from the last HPDE because it didnt cure long enough and was still pretty soft(went to the track with a week or so of painting) the paint should be let cure for at least a month to fully harden.

C) CMP has TONS of rocks and a crappy track surface


D) the hood and bumper will get repainted during the winter, I just threw some paint on the last few parts to get the car track ready, most of it looks great but i had to rush to get the last few things done.

Did both of you guys repaint your cars? I'm seeing tons of rock chips. Not that it matters on a race car, but our plastic car was painted by Penske prior to use getting it and after 4 HPDEs this year with both my father and I using the car each weekend (dual use) it's not chipped like that at all.

You can avoid the chips by staying in the paddock. :headshake

We have a complete touch-up kit for our car and have already done the repairs from CMP - several blue SHARPIES :lol:

You can avoid the chips by staying in the paddock. :headshake

We have a complete touch-up kit for our car and have already done the repairs from CMP - several blue SHARPIES :lol:

I have the standard issue Toyota # 202 touch up kit...... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I prefer to stay in the pits and wax mine.

Here is some of the "finished" product, Devin still needs to paint or polish them and get some better mounting hardware, but you'll get the idea.

it's HIGH but looks great!

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96347&g2_serialNumber=2

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96344&g2_serialNumber=2

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96350&g2_serialNumber=2

http://www.extremespeedonline.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=96356&g2_serialNumber=2

Damn... I want a set too! Those look really good. Can't wait to here a review on how it affect's handling.

Damn... I want a set too! Those look really good. Can't wait to here a review on how it affect's handling.

Thanks!

I decided to keep the lower portion of the existing uprights, no sense of wasting the material and this way we were able to notch the mounting holes to allow for some additional adjustments.
The upper portion where the spoiler mounts is adjustable by rotating the spoiler in the mounts and using a different set of holes, came out pretty slick....


I will be having a few extra sets made if anyone if interested shoot me a PM and i'll put together a list.

(And yes you have to have ESM cut in them) :-D

I'll throw in some extreme speed motorsports decals for the sides of the spoiler lol

Did you cut your existing uprights and then bolt these to them? My current ones are one piece.

Did you cut your existing uprights and then bolt these to them? My current ones are one piece.

Yes, I cut the existing ones down and reused the lower section. If someone wants them cut and painted they can send me their existing uprights and I can machine them and send them back with the new extensions.

Damn... I want a set too! Those look really good. Can't wait to here a review on how it affect's handling.

I'll know Saturday @ 9AM -- first test - VIR Full Course.