Driving the GT-RA at Miller

I took the GT-RA up to Miller Motorsports Park this past weekend to run the full 4.5 mile track. A twelve hour tow, but it was worth it. The event was a PCA race weekend. Three days of DE. Great opportunity to learn the 23 turns, and drive fast, faster, and a few other very fun turns. I tried to talk my way into the race, but even though the car manufacturer's name starts with "P," I couldn't convince them to let me enter. So it was DE only.

This was my first time at Miller. What a facility. World class accomodation, track personnel, and a well organized event. The PCA guys were great. Fun to watch the big boys run their RSR's, Cup cars, 911 turbos, etc. Very fast cars. OMG. One guy was 175 mph at the end of the front straight.

Day one (Friday) was spent learning the track. I was a bit intimidated by the speed. I was following a friend driving a very good GT3. He showed me the turn in points, braking points, and where not to track out. The GT3 said he took it slow for the first session, but it felt very fast. My times from the G2X GPS data acquisition system said my times were in the 3:30 range. On the third session a bolt on the steering arm broke, and I had to be towed on the flatbed off of the track. BUMMER!!! Fortunately I was able to fix the problem with a quick trip to NAPA for fresh Grade 5 bolts. The car was ready for Saturday.

After using the first session to check out the front suspension, making sure it was ready for 100 mph turns, I started getting faster on Saturday. By the end of the day I was in the mid 3:20's. I had a 3:26 at one point. One local guy said that low 3:20's was very fast for GT3's. That was my goal. The best part of the day was running with two Mustangs FR500 (Miller Cup Cars). They raced the previous weekend (Rolex Cup was at Miller the weekend before). These guys were fast, and a bunch of fun to follow. They really helped with the line in several corners. I improved a bunch on Saturday.

Sunday was even better. There were three fast cars in the DE group. A yellow Vette with Pfadt coil over suspension and 500 hp under the hood, my buddy in his GT3, and my GT-RA. We ran hard and fast, nose-to-tail for lap after lap. Both the GT3 and the Vette would do 140 down the front straight, and the Panoz would only hit 125. But I was 5 mph faster in the twisties. So they'd run away from me on the straight, and I'd catch them in the corners. Classic!!! I ran a bunch of 3:21's when there was no other traffic. I also got in a fast lap of 3:19. I was elated that I was able to run that fast on my first trip to Miller. I will be back.

I took the GT-RA up to Miller Motorsports Park this past weekend to run the full 4.5 mile track. A twelve hour tow, but it was worth it. The event was a PCA race weekend. Three days of DE. Great opportunity to learn the 23 turns, and drive fast, faster, and a few other very fun turns. I tried to talk my way into the race, but even though the car manufacturer's name starts with "P," I couldn't convince them to let me enter. So it was DE only.

This was my first time at Miller. What a facility. World class accomodation, track personnel, and a well organized event. The PCA guys were great. Fun to watch the big boys run their RSR's, Cup cars, 911 turbos, etc. Very fast cars. OMG. One guy was 175 mph at the end of the front straight.

Day one (Friday) was spent learning the track. I was a bit intimidated by the speed. I was following a friend driving a very good GT3. He showed me the turn in points, braking points, and where not to track out. The GT3 said he took it slow for the first session, but it felt very fast. My times from the G2X GPS data acquisition system said my times were in the 3:30 range. On the third session a bolt on the steering arm broke, and I had to be towed on the flatbed off of the track. BUMMER!!! Fortunately I was able to fix the problem with a quick trip to NAPA for fresh Grade 5 bolts. The car was ready for Saturday.

After using the first session to check out the front suspension, making sure it was ready for 100 mph turns, I started getting faster on Saturday. By the end of the day I was in the mid 3:20's. I had a 3:26 at one point. One local guy said that low 3:20's was very fast for GT3's. That was my goal. The best part of the day was running with two Mustangs FR500 (Miller Cup Cars). They raced the previous weekend (Rolex Cup was at Miller the weekend before). These guys were fast, and a bunch of fun to follow. They really helped with the line in several corners. I improved a bunch on Saturday.

Sunday was even better. There were three fast cars in the DE group. A yellow Vette with Pfadt coil over suspension and 500 hp under the hood, my buddy in his GT3, and my GT-RA. We ran hard and fast, nose-to-tail for lap after lap. Both the GT3 and the Vette would do 140 down the front straight, and the Panoz would only hit 125. But I was 5 mph faster in the twisties. So they'd run away from me on the straight, and I'd catch them in the corners. Classic!!! I ran a bunch of 3:21's when there was no other traffic. I also got in a fast lap of 3:19. I was elated that I was able to run that fast on my first trip to Miller. I will be back.

Very Cool -- seems as if the Panoz are starting to be seen everywhere -- this is awesome!!

Awesome... refresh my memory... what all have you done to your car?

Awesome... refresh my memory... what all have you done to your car?

stiffer springs (500# front and 350# rear), off set upper A-arms, basic alignment, corner balance, and head/cam/intake on the stock 5.0 l short block. I have been adjusting the brakes to get the F/R bias better.

Which H/C/I did you go with... how much power did you make... what RPM do you turn now?

Which H/C/I did you go with... how much power did you make... what RPM do you turn now?

I went with Canfield heads. They have 2.02" intake and 1.60" exhaust valves. The heads have huge ports, and I'm sure I'm not using them to their full ability with the cam I'm using. I went with Scorpion full roller rockers. I picked the Ford Racing B-303 cam because its lift wasn't huge, but its duration was decent. It was highly recommended by serveral engine builders I talked to. Since I was using the stock short block with pistons that were not fly cut with the required diameter for large diameter valves and high lift cams, I thought it would be best to go with something less then 0.500" lift. I think the B-303 has 0.486" lift. Going with more lift should help in future engine work, and use the heads high flow capability better. But that will require new pistons.

The intake manifold is a Typhoon. That's a Chinese copy of the Edlebrock RPM intake. Shitty casting, but I didn't know that until I purchased it. Go with Edelbrock. I got a Trick Flow 75 mm TB and matching mass air sensor. I stayed with 19 lb injectors, and so the mass air sensor was calibrated for those injectors. Probably could make more power with bigger injectors.

There is definetly more power at higher rpms. Before the car was anemic above 5000 rpm. Now it gets spun to 6000 and seems to have even more room. I was told that this engine shouldn't be spun much past 6200, so I try not to.

After I built the motor I had a choice to either dyno the engine, or go drive the car. I chose to drive the car, so I don't have good hp numbers. I'm guessing that it's over 300 hp at the wheel, but it's a guess. It's certainly faster everywhere on the track.

Damn, sounds like a great time BS21. Not so sure about that broken bolt on the steering arm though, that must have been a bit of an eye opener... http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

Cool... we've gone with AFR 165s and a custom Ed Curtis cam and a carb setup. Ed Curtis is the 5.0 guru so we went with his recommendation on the head/cam. Looked at 185 AFRs but he said they'd be complete overkill for a 302 unless it was a 9000 rpm drag motor.

Car should make 320ish rwhp and drop a good bit of weight... like yours was, ours is a dog after 3rd gear and over 4000 rpms.

We're going to set our rev limitar at 6200 and shift at 6k.

Damn, sounds like a great time BS21. Not so sure about that broken bolt on the steering arm though, that must have been a bit of an eye opener... http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

It certainly was eye opening. At least the broken bolt didn't cause the car to go out of control. It just caused the inner bead of the front rim to grind against a streering hemispherical joint. One wasted rim, and the need to replace the steering arm is the extent of the damage.

I nut and bolt the car between events. The bolt that broke never showed any signs off stretching or loosening. I think it was a fatigue issue, and as such all spindles and fasteners will be replaced. I'm writting my list of parts today, and going to start purchasing.

This off season I will paint each fastener with a bit of white nail polish to see if bolts are coming loose or when re-torqued if they rotate/turn further. I learned this from an ex-Petersen White Lightening crew chief over the weekend. He said that this procedure helped dramatically in locating fastener problems.

Cool... we've gone with AFR 165s and a custom Ed Curtis cam and a carb setup. Ed Curtis is the 5.0 guru so we went with his recommendation on the head/cam. Looked at 185 AFRs but he said they'd be complete overkill for a 302 unless it was a 9000 rpm drag motor.

Car should make 320ish rwhp and drop a good bit of weight... like yours was, ours is a dog after 3rd gear and over 4000 rpms.

We're going to set our rev limitar at 6200 and shift at 6k.

Nice direction. Good decision to go with a proven receipe from a known engine expert. You won't be disappointed. I'm happy with the hp gains, but it was not as dramatic as I had hoped. The high rev band is the biggest gain, especially at fast tracks. Tight tracks still use the low end torque.

I'm seriously considering putting in a LS (all aluminum) motor over the off-season. The motor will make 400 + hp easily, and have more low end grunt with the larger displacement (5.7 vs. 5.0 l). The power to weight will make the car much more of a challenge to drive, and it will be a terrior on any track. The idea of making that level of hp while loosing a few lbs is very appealing. The LSX engines are plentiful and relatively cheap. I think I can get one (and a 6 speed tranny) for under $5k. Working on the engineering details of dropping it into the engine bay is right up my alley. If I go this direction, I'll document witha bunch of photos, and gladly share with the forum.

I'm seriously considering putting in a LS (all aluminum) motor over the off-season. The motor will make 400 + hp easily, and have more low end grunt with the larger displacement (5.7 vs. 5.0 l). The power to weight will make the car much more of a challenge to drive, and it will be a terrior on any track. The idea of making that level of hp while loosing a few lbs is very appealing. The LSX engines are plentiful and relatively cheap. I think I can get one (and a 6 speed tranny) for under $5k. Working on the engineering details of dropping it into the engine bay is right up my alley. If I go this direction, I'll document witha bunch of photos, and gladly share with the forum.
We considered that too... we're very familiar with the platform as we have 4 C5 Corvettes in the family (dad has a Z16 Z06, mom has a '99 vert, and I've got my Z06 and a '98 track rat that's for sale).

At the end of the day we wanted to build the car to run NASA ST2 so it was cheaper/easier to build a 400 HP 5.0 then to put a LS1 in there. I agree it shouldn't be too hard and you could even put a carb setup on one to make it ultra simple.

One of these days when I have free time it'd be fun to put a custom built 402 in it :D (stroked LS2 block).

We considered that too... we're very familiar with the platform as we have 4 C5 Corvettes in the family (dad has a Z16 Z06, mom has a '99 vert, and I've got my Z06 and a '98 track rat that's for sale).

At the end of the day we wanted to build the car to run NASA ST2 so it was cheaper/easier to build a 400 HP 5.0 then to put a LS1 in there. I agree it shouldn't be too hard and you could even put a carb setup on one to make it ultra simple.

One of these days when I have free time it'd be fun to put a custom built 402 in it :D (stroked LS2 block).

Why go thru the hassle? Buy a 351W dart block and build a 427. the gts chassis can handle it and so can the tranny. we run 450 rwhp and the car is perfect to win ST1 nasa.

^ Becuase 450 rwhp is a joke out of a 427 LSX. A cam'd LS7 can make over 600 rwhp when uncorked. A medium cam makes 530-550 rwhp through cats and mufflers.

My 5.7 liter LS6 makes 436 rwhp with a cam and headers.... stock heads, stock intake manifold.

My 5.7 liter LS6 makes 436 rwhp with a cam and headers.... stock heads, stock intake manifold.

Brian, what cam did you use in the LS6? I'm serious about building the LS motor, and wonder what makes proven power. There is the header issue to resolve, but at worst those will be custome units. The rest (such as engine mounts, tranny mounts, and drive shaft lengths) are pretty straight forward. another 120 hp and ft-lbs of torque over my current motor for 50 lbs less mass is win-win in my book.

^ I'm running a G5-X2 cam from LGM (Lou Gilotti Motorsports). Lots of cam options for these cars, but LGM has a great track record from making power and tracking what they make. Lou is racing ALMS GT2 now with the new C6 GT2 car.

My cam is a 232/240 .595/.608 on a 114 LSA... by today's standards it's no a huge cam. It's somewhere between big medium and big.

I've got Kooks 1 3/4ths LT headers w/ cats w/ x-pipe. I'm running yella-terra ultralight roller rockers and a Luk stage 2 clutch w/ a fidanza aluminum flywheel.

We're going to set our car up for NASA ST-2, but if we ever want more I'll most likely be doing a LSX swap w/ a carb.

^ Becuase 450 rwhp is a joke out of a 427 LSX. A cam'd LS7 can make over 600 rwhp when uncorked. A medium cam makes 530-550 rwhp through cats and mufflers.

My 5.7 liter LS6 makes 436 rwhp with a cam and headers.... stock heads, stock intake manifold.

450hp is a joke out of the 427windsor too. It ran 800 at 9000rpm when we built it and then started detuning it. It was hard to get it to 450hp. We had to run several restrictors...the biggest is a 390 restrictor holley carb and a redline of 6k. If i change the carb to a 650 demon I get almost 100rwhp. We went this direct because the ease of fitment and our engine builders recommendation. I am not a lover of chevy or ford I love any type of performance. What is strange is our engine builder builds all of Mosler engines (total engine concepts), he builds a ton of LS motors, drag motors, porsche motors, and motorcycle engines (weird combos....he even does aircraft rotory motors (not sure if that is what they are called)).....with all his LS expertise he thought about it and decided the best way to go was the dart block stroked....

We have been runing these engines for 2.5 years with perfection (we have 2 cars with them). I like that it stays with the theme that panoz choose...FORD power!!!! Just my thoughts......

basically any brand motor will make power for about the same price....why mess with all the other components if you dont have to? What does a 427 LS motor cost if you had to build it from scratch with nothing used? You gotta build a monster and detune them otherwise you pay more in the long run. I have blown lots of motors that were about maxed out with the smallest little mistake. Not what you want for a road race car.

^ Very true... I guess I don't know as much about the Ford Race motors... everything I've seen shows people building 408s etc. making about the power you're making. It seems to take a max effort race setup to extract power from the Fords whereas I can make better power w/ off the shelf GM parts for the most part.

Not going to change anything up anytime soon, but if our hot-rodded 302 craps the bed then we've got something to think about.

So what is the cost to build a 427 Windsor motor? How much more does it weigh over the stock 302? Did you have to build custom headers, or do the Headman units Panoz offers bolt on? I'm a bang for the buck racer, and so I'm looking to max reliability to make respectable power-to-weight gains, all while keeping to my modest budget. That's my challenge.

^ That is indeed the challenge... if I could do it all over again from scratch 5 years ago I'd take a stock C5 Z06 + oil cooler + proper racing seat w/ harnesses + Wilwoond SL6R front brake kit w/ cooling and call it a day.

I wish I could drive the Panoz on the street as a weekend toy... I'd probably sell my Z06 if I could.

So what is the cost to build a 427 Windsor motor? How much more does it weigh over the stock 302? Did you have to build custom headers, or do the Headman units Panoz offers botl on? I'm a bang for the buck racer, and so I'm looking to max reliability to make respectable power-to-weight gains, all while keeping to my modest budget. That's my challenge.

I have no idea on the weight diff. between the 302 and the windsor setup. I have a GTS so it came with the 351 windsor? The headman headers worked but with the size of the afr 225 heads we had leaks so I had headman modify the stock unit and use a afr 225 plate and that solved the leaks. All the bolt hole locations are the same.

I too am always looking for bang for the buck mods. We didnt really investigate the 302 route. We wanted 500 fwhp but we wanted the motor to be capable of more so it was not working hard at 500. We also wanted TORQUE and it needed to be low in the RPMS. Our motor is over 450 ft.lbs. at 2500 and up. The torque down low REALLY gets the car moving off the corners. I talked to lots of people and nobody suggested stroking a 302 for the parameters I gave them.

The motors we built are top of the line as a windsor could get (I think but I dont really know) so our prices are higher than required. We have AFR 225 heads with Jezel valvetrain. The motor did close to 800hp @ 9000rpm on the engine dyno and we backed it WAY down from there. It cost us with totally new parts with external 3 scavenge drysump pump and 4 gal ext. tank we were about 17k. Our motors will last 200+ track time hours without a rebuild. With track weekends about 3-4hrs. of track time that is 50 weekends!!!!!

I cant imagine a completely new 302 would be much less unless you ditched stuff like the drysump, etc. The only complaint is the motor runs hot even with the panoz large setrab oil cooler (only when it is above 80 deg outside which in Florida is ALWAYS). Our engine builder is ok with the temps but 240 deg. is a bit high.

240? Is that oil or coolant? If it's oil, that's absolutely nothing. LSX motors run up to 320 before the idiot light comes on... anything below 280 is considered 100% fine.