Time and money on an automatic engine?
cougar 420
09-21-2008, 06:08 PM
What's up everybody. In a few short months I will be purchasing a new car, I have decided on an automatic, and a honda civic appeals me. Fast cars also appeal me, now I have always heard people say doing aftermarket engine mods to an automatic car is a waste of time and money. So basiccaly what I am asking is your opinion on it? I probably wouldnt do more than a cold air intake, new exhaust, tires and suspension. I am also not looking for a tokyo drift car either, some added horsepower would please me.
MagicRat
09-22-2008, 02:37 PM
I have always heard people say doing aftermarket engine mods to an automatic car is a waste of time and money.
I have never heard this.
IMO anyone who says this probably has not chosen the proper mods to suit the car or has never done any mods at all.
Modding an auto transmission car requires you to keep in mind the stall speed of the converter and the overall final drive gearing.
Most stock production automatic vehicles have torque converters that do not allow the engine to rev particularly high the moment the car starts rolling from a stop. This is because most people are interested in economy, comfort and relatively low noise levels.
Therefore, unless you install a higher stall converter, the engine must retain reasonable low-end torque so it gets rolling reasonably quickly.
Changing camshafts, valve sizes and valve timing often increase mid-range and high-rev power levels at the expense of low end torque. So such a modded car actually is slower in very low-speed acceleration (than a stock automatic-equipped car) until the engine revs fast enough for the extra power to come into effect.
Installing a higher stall converter allows the engine to rev higher at low speeds in these situations.
The mild mods that you plan, such as a cold-air intake and possibly an exhaust system etc will increase high- rev end power and will not reduce low rev torque at all, so they should work well with an automatic transmission car.
Finally, please note these comments apply in general to all cars. I would suggest looking through the Honda sub forum here at AF to see what mod combos have worked for others with new Civics.
I have never heard this.
IMO anyone who says this probably has not chosen the proper mods to suit the car or has never done any mods at all.
Modding an auto transmission car requires you to keep in mind the stall speed of the converter and the overall final drive gearing.
Most stock production automatic vehicles have torque converters that do not allow the engine to rev particularly high the moment the car starts rolling from a stop. This is because most people are interested in economy, comfort and relatively low noise levels.
Therefore, unless you install a higher stall converter, the engine must retain reasonable low-end torque so it gets rolling reasonably quickly.
Changing camshafts, valve sizes and valve timing often increase mid-range and high-rev power levels at the expense of low end torque. So such a modded car actually is slower in very low-speed acceleration (than a stock automatic-equipped car) until the engine revs fast enough for the extra power to come into effect.
Installing a higher stall converter allows the engine to rev higher at low speeds in these situations.
The mild mods that you plan, such as a cold-air intake and possibly an exhaust system etc will increase high- rev end power and will not reduce low rev torque at all, so they should work well with an automatic transmission car.
Finally, please note these comments apply in general to all cars. I would suggest looking through the Honda sub forum here at AF to see what mod combos have worked for others with new Civics.
curtis73
09-23-2008, 02:30 AM
Agreed... Some automatics are not up to the task of handling additional power, but I can't think of any that aren't ready to handle the few HP you give it from the modifications you describe.
You do have to realize that extra power means reduced life of some components including the transmission, but think of it this way; if a Civic transmission is engineered to last an average of 150k miles, then your modifications might reduce the reliability to 110k miles. That's just an example... true reliability is more a factor of driving style, but every transmission is different. Some are over-engineered, others are pathetically weak. You'll have to talk to a specific Honda person to get the real scoop, but there are no blanket statements in the car world. My wife's Mercedes Diesel auto transmission would have a stroke if I added the power I wanted, but my old chevy station wagon could probably take double the stock HP without breaking a sweat.
You do have to realize that extra power means reduced life of some components including the transmission, but think of it this way; if a Civic transmission is engineered to last an average of 150k miles, then your modifications might reduce the reliability to 110k miles. That's just an example... true reliability is more a factor of driving style, but every transmission is different. Some are over-engineered, others are pathetically weak. You'll have to talk to a specific Honda person to get the real scoop, but there are no blanket statements in the car world. My wife's Mercedes Diesel auto transmission would have a stroke if I added the power I wanted, but my old chevy station wagon could probably take double the stock HP without breaking a sweat.
cougar 420
09-23-2008, 07:27 PM
thanks alot thats what i needed to hear!! Would you have any other reccomondations for some mods that would be suited with an automatic engine?
MagicRat
09-25-2008, 10:55 PM
thanks alot thats what i needed to hear!! Would you have any other reccomondations for some mods that would be suited with an automatic engine?
I humbly suggest you drive the car and see how well it suits you. Some mods not only increase power, but change power characteristics (ie the rev range of peak torque etc) so it's tough to suggest anything until you know what you do and do not like about the engine.
I do also suggest that you consider another car, perhaps one that is faster and suits your needs better. The mods you suggest will void your new Honda's warranty.
It may be better that you buy a car that is fast enough that you do not have to mod it right away.
I humbly suggest you drive the car and see how well it suits you. Some mods not only increase power, but change power characteristics (ie the rev range of peak torque etc) so it's tough to suggest anything until you know what you do and do not like about the engine.
I do also suggest that you consider another car, perhaps one that is faster and suits your needs better. The mods you suggest will void your new Honda's warranty.
It may be better that you buy a car that is fast enough that you do not have to mod it right away.
curtis73
09-26-2008, 02:22 AM
I agree with MagicRat. The bottom line is that the Civic is designed as an econobox. Turning it into a performer is much more a task than starting with something designed for performance.
The import performance scene is mostly populated with young folks who have yet to learn the finer points of vehicle performance and why smaller 4-cylinder economy cars don't make wise investments in the performance community. Its very true that they can be made into high performance vehicles, but it takes so much more to do it than buying a vehicle that is conceived from performance engineering to start with. I've beaten probably 150 sport import vehicles with my completely stock Chevy. Once they realize that they spent $20,000 on their perfect racer and they get beaten with a stock $4000 chevy, they just call me a cheater and spend more money to put a bigger wing on their Camry. They accuse me of hiding "nawwss" in my car even though they can't figure out why a car displacing 5.7L could possibly beat their 1.8L Civic.
For example; if you want to get high performance from a small-displacement 4-banger FWD car, you'll spend tons of money and then be putting that power to the "wrong" wheels for performance. In the end you'll be graspoing for 13-second dragstrip times. Or, you could buy a $300 G-body GM from the 80s, drop in $1000 worth of engine and transmission, and be in the 12s with a daily-driveable car.
A suggestion... take a gander at www.grassrootsmotorsports.com (http://www.grassrootsmotorsports.com). They have the ultimate corner on the cheap performance category. Every year they hold a challenge competition in which all of the cars can only cost the amount of the current year. In fact, the $2008 challenge is next week. The competitors must provide proof that their cars cost no more than $2008 - INCLUDING all parts, labor, and everything that went into the car. Even if you got free seats from your neighbor, they assess market value to them. That competition includes a fair number of sport imports, and they have the key to getting cheap performance out of them.
And... just to give you an example. My car weighs about 3200 lbs. It has a big honkin V8 under the hood with an automatic tranny. It puts nearly 300 hp to the ground, and I get a consistent 20+ mpg from a 1996 vehicle. So, decide if you want economy or performance, then compare several vehicles. You might find that the economy you want is possible with the performance you crave.
Heck, the new Corvette puts nearly 500 hp to the ground and gets almost 30 mpg. I can provide links to home-brew diesel trucks that are putting 1200hp and 2200 lb-ft of torque to the GROUND, while being able to turn 10-second timeslips, deliver 25+ MPG, and have a 400k mile reliability span while towing 20,000 lbs without breaking a sweat.
Its all in what you're comfortable with. If you want to modify a car and end up with an expensive, purpose built street/race car with FWD, get a sport import. If you want cheap performance, get an American RWD car. If you want the best of both worlds and can afford it, get a diesel truck and shock the hell out of everyone.
Sorry to anyone in this thread who might not appreciate diesels, but I had to mention it :)
The import performance scene is mostly populated with young folks who have yet to learn the finer points of vehicle performance and why smaller 4-cylinder economy cars don't make wise investments in the performance community. Its very true that they can be made into high performance vehicles, but it takes so much more to do it than buying a vehicle that is conceived from performance engineering to start with. I've beaten probably 150 sport import vehicles with my completely stock Chevy. Once they realize that they spent $20,000 on their perfect racer and they get beaten with a stock $4000 chevy, they just call me a cheater and spend more money to put a bigger wing on their Camry. They accuse me of hiding "nawwss" in my car even though they can't figure out why a car displacing 5.7L could possibly beat their 1.8L Civic.
For example; if you want to get high performance from a small-displacement 4-banger FWD car, you'll spend tons of money and then be putting that power to the "wrong" wheels for performance. In the end you'll be graspoing for 13-second dragstrip times. Or, you could buy a $300 G-body GM from the 80s, drop in $1000 worth of engine and transmission, and be in the 12s with a daily-driveable car.
A suggestion... take a gander at www.grassrootsmotorsports.com (http://www.grassrootsmotorsports.com). They have the ultimate corner on the cheap performance category. Every year they hold a challenge competition in which all of the cars can only cost the amount of the current year. In fact, the $2008 challenge is next week. The competitors must provide proof that their cars cost no more than $2008 - INCLUDING all parts, labor, and everything that went into the car. Even if you got free seats from your neighbor, they assess market value to them. That competition includes a fair number of sport imports, and they have the key to getting cheap performance out of them.
And... just to give you an example. My car weighs about 3200 lbs. It has a big honkin V8 under the hood with an automatic tranny. It puts nearly 300 hp to the ground, and I get a consistent 20+ mpg from a 1996 vehicle. So, decide if you want economy or performance, then compare several vehicles. You might find that the economy you want is possible with the performance you crave.
Heck, the new Corvette puts nearly 500 hp to the ground and gets almost 30 mpg. I can provide links to home-brew diesel trucks that are putting 1200hp and 2200 lb-ft of torque to the GROUND, while being able to turn 10-second timeslips, deliver 25+ MPG, and have a 400k mile reliability span while towing 20,000 lbs without breaking a sweat.
Its all in what you're comfortable with. If you want to modify a car and end up with an expensive, purpose built street/race car with FWD, get a sport import. If you want cheap performance, get an American RWD car. If you want the best of both worlds and can afford it, get a diesel truck and shock the hell out of everyone.
Sorry to anyone in this thread who might not appreciate diesels, but I had to mention it :)
MagicRat
09-26-2008, 01:47 PM
Sorry to anyone in this thread who might not appreciate diesels, but I had to mention it :)
<(breathes in errant diesel exhaust) cough, cough... aaaHAAAACCCKKKKyyeeuucckkk ........ptoooie.......> :)
Seriously, the popularity of Civics among kids is just like the popularity of the 1930's Ford Model A with a flathead V8, as seen 50 years ago.
Both the Civic and the Ford were popular NOT because they were particularly good performers, but because they were cheap to buy, cheap to run, small and manoeverable. However, even when modded, there were many newer cars of the day that could still run and hide from them.
Most Civics are modded when they are used and worth much less than a new one. Modding a new one is not the best or most efficient way to go fast.
<(breathes in errant diesel exhaust) cough, cough... aaaHAAAACCCKKKKyyeeuucckkk ........ptoooie.......> :)
Seriously, the popularity of Civics among kids is just like the popularity of the 1930's Ford Model A with a flathead V8, as seen 50 years ago.
Both the Civic and the Ford were popular NOT because they were particularly good performers, but because they were cheap to buy, cheap to run, small and manoeverable. However, even when modded, there were many newer cars of the day that could still run and hide from them.
Most Civics are modded when they are used and worth much less than a new one. Modding a new one is not the best or most efficient way to go fast.
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