Head Service

Well, My water pump failed which caused the timing belt to destroy itself, and in turned trashed the valves.

The timing belt was replaced, but I decided to do the rest myself.

I am now tasked with pulling the head off. I've gotten most of the components off, but The timing belt is killing me.

#1 - The Engine mount bracket. The bolts on this are 4-5" long. I've gotten the front two out, but the third is just to long. How do I get this sucker out???

#2 - The crankshaft damper pulley. Both the manual and several places on the web tell me to use "special tool MB995055 and insert MB995057 or equivalent". Where in the heck do i find something like this? Is it possible to rent, or are they cheap enough to buy? Also it tell me to align the timing marks before removing the belt... How am I supposed to do this? Turning by hand is an impossibility...

Any other advise is greatly appreciated.

that tool is a pain to find. I ended up building my own. (which you can do) You can build one from drive pins and a a wrench head. It lets you hold the one pully in place to set the tension while you torque the bolt holding the pulley in...

If thats what I think you are talking about...

If not maybe try finding someone who would lend it out.

Also, so far i'm trying to rebuild with the block still in the car. Is this the easiest route or should I remove the engine completely. Ive got practically everything on the passngerside of the engine disconnected, but not quite sure what I need to do on the drivers side/transfer case.

I'm borrowing a gear puller from a neighbor sometime soon, but if this does not work, do you have a link to some information on building one?

What motor is this on? It would be easier to remove the motor from the car and rebuild it but it could be done in the car also. I would highly recomend removing the block.

sorry, this is 420A NT. RS model.

sorry, this is 420A NT. RS model.

Also, I know I will have to rebuilt the head, but should I rebuild the block while I've got everything out? The Engine has 186k on it. To rebuild the block what am I looking at parts/special tools wise? New piston rings, head gasket, hone,.... ??? What are the chances of piston damage if the timing belt failed?(No compression on an cylinders right now).



Also, as for rebuilding the head, If valves are destroyed/damaged, I will need to replace them right? After replaced they need to be fitted to the head, but how is this done? Everything I'm seeing says to send the head to a machine shop, but is this even possible with a medium size toolset?


I'm looking for the best (cost effective)method to get a decent amount of miles out of the rebuilt engine. No Mod's/performance upgrades in the future, I'm going for all stock.

Go ahead and pull the block, if there are no gashes on the cylinder walls just have the block honed out. You may have to buy new pistons if yours are damaged. Gaps the rings and have the crank journals polished and use new bearings and gaskets and the bottom end is done.

For the head, buy a new set of valves and take the head and the new valves to a machine shop and have the valve seats regrinded. This will help the new valves seal. Check out your cams and rockers for damange and reuse if fine. Remember to mark them when you remove them so they go back in the same location. Change the timing belt pulleys and tensioner and you will be good to go. Break the new motor in according to the book and your good to go for another 150+k.

Remember to plasti gage the new bearings on the crank and rod bearing journals and check clearences.

Great!!! You dont know how much of a help you are. Sometimes it's 1000 times easier to be able to have a direct question answered rather than try to research similar, but not exactly the same questions. I'm going to try to get the engine out this week, however my week may be cut short.


Any estimates on what the machining will cost? Also, what kind of machine shop will do this? My dad was a machinist for 30 years, but never did this kind of work.

The machine shop charged me about $45 to have my valve seat regrinded. And you could do the honing yourself if you buy the tool. Im sure a shop would do it really cheap so check on both options. Then having the crank polished should be fairly cheap also. I would guess that everything should cost under $100.

Great! I thought I was looking at $500 or so. :)

Any Tips on breaking the axel caps? (the big ~27mm nuts) I've got a big (24") breaker bar on there, but I can turn the motor over before it will break. I've tried a bit of penetrating oil and a rubber mallet on the breaker bar, but nothing. Only other thing I can think of is to have someone hold the brakes down (which I did not have last night).



Anyways, as an update the engine is about ready to pull. I've got to get a hoist and hookup before removing the mounts to the tranny. (and get these darn CV axels out....)

I didn't take those off when I pulled the motor out of mine. Actually I didn't even remove the tires. But an impact wrench would be the easiest way but you could use a breaker bar with someone holding the brakes.

Then how to I remove the tranny? Will they just pull out when the engine is lifted? I thought they would be holding the tranny in since they are in both sides of it...

I left the tranny in the car. I supported it from under the car and removed its all the motor and tranny mounts. Then just pulled them apart and lifted the motor out. Its easier said then done but its not that bad. Once you get the motor out then go ahead and put the tranny mount back in so the tranny is supported. If you pull the axles out the tranny fluid will run out so be prepared for that.

Well, I've secured an engine hoist and engine stand. I'm having trouble getting the engine out however. I've got the engine on the hoist and supported that way, but when I loosen all the bolts to the trans axel, I can get about 1" between them but the starter gear will not clear the gap. it also seems like something is connected between them and s holding them together.

Any tips? You said you removed the mounts to the transmission... why? Was this to make some sort of clearance? The manual is not helping too much right now.


The tools are slowly coming together...

So have you removed the starter? There is not much cleaence on either side of the motor or tranny, that why you have to push both of them apart. Just pushing the motor to the side wont give you enough room. Also under the tranny there is a small inspection plate that will hold the flywheel on. Did you remove that?

I did remove the starter. I can see the starter gear. I removed a plate on the bottom which goes from the transaxel to the block (well unscrewed from the block, not the tran-side). Is this what you're referring to?

So The trick is to unmount engine, secure with the hoist, unmount tranny, support with a jack, and that should give me enough room if I push the tranny towards the drivers side of the car, and pull engine passengerside, then up and out?

Btw silvereclipse: I saw your engine rebuild thread... nice :)

Btw silvereclipse: I saw your engine rebuild thread... nice :)

Thanks man



Yea thats what you got to do. I was on the tranny side and had my friend on the motor side and we basically just kept pulling and shaking them untill they came apart. Its not that hard if you have everything apart. If you cant get them separated go back and make sure nothing is holding them together.

Alright, looks like i might have to recruit some help for this one. How bad is it to get it back together??? Would suck to not be able to get 'er back in :-/

The hardest part is getting the input shaft into the clutch disc. I think it took about the same time to take it out as it did to put it back in. Much easier than removing the whole tranny with it.

Perhaps I'm dense, but i spent about another 4 hours trying everything I can to get this apart. I did figure out why i wasn't getting it last time.... there's a plate on the bottom of the transaxle which will prevent the flywheel from coming off. I removed it(which required I remove the clutch slave cyl.

I've removed all mounts, and clutch slave cylinder from the tranny. It appears to now be supported by only the axles and the jack I have underneath it.

The engine is supported only by the hoist and it's connection to the tranny. I'm getting quite a bit more space between them now, butI still cannot get enough clearance to pull it out. It's almost as if something were holding them together. I was by myself, so I didn't get the best angles to do this, but I think i would of gotten it had something not been jammed. Even with prying the two apart I seem to run into the pasenger side of the engine bay. When I'm pulling them apart it looks like the flywheel as well as the clutchplate and all are coming with the flywheel. Is this right? I just feel like i'm missing something here.... :(

Did you remove the crankshaft damper pulley before trying to pull this out? Looks like i'd have to remove the other pulley in the rear as well to help this way, but have no idea how i would get a puller on that one...

Any advice is greatly appreciated. It's late now and i'm heading to bed. zzzZZzzzZZZzz

I did not remove the pulley but it may help you get more room to work in. Try raising the motor and lowering the tranny some. You just have to mess around with it untill you get it. Its also a lot easier with 2 people.

When I raise the motor it starts pulling the tranny up as well, which is why i'm thinking something connected. It may just be the tight fit however. I'll try pulling the crankshaft pulley tonight and see if it helps. I don't have anybody to help me right now... I'll see what I can do.


The entire clutch is supposed to come out with it right? Connected to the flywheel?

Try tilting the whole assembly. Raising up the left side of the motor and lowering the tranny. If I remember right there is metal blocking the tranny from moving to far to the left so try and get under that.

Yes the clutch assembly should come out with the motor.

Will do. Thanks for the help. I'll let you know if I have any luck.

On a side note, are there any precautions i should take when cleaning out the engine bay? It's pretty bad in there. I had a slight oil leak from the valve cover which coated a lot of the wires on the left side of the engine with oil. Most everything else is coated in road grime. Is regular soap and water OK to clean with? Is spraying with a hose OK after the engine is removed? I'm assuming everything that has electrical connectors should already have dielectric grease on them and prevent them from corrosion. Plus just letting it air dry pretty quickly will help prevent this as well.

The block will be cleaned and repainted. the valve cover is in good shape, but needs cleaned. Can I use kerosene on it without ruining the stock black finish? It looks like powdercoat. Do most people leave the head unfinished?

Thanks Silvr, That did the trick with a bit of tugging. Now I'm baffled by the electrical connectors on the back of the block. I have tried 100 different ways of getting these to let go, but no luck. I'm going to break them if I try any harder, there has to be a trick to it somehow. See linked pics.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/perfected-insanity/2850210065/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/perfected-insanity/2850209945/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/perfected-insanity/2850209879/


Can you provide any help here?

The red tab has to be slide over to replease the connector. Its just like the coil pack. You should be fine washing out the engine bay.

Wow, I feel like a fool now. :-/

I knew it'd be something simple. Thanks. It'll be coming out tonight! :)

Well, sorry for not updating in so long... I have been making progress, but been quite busy to post pics on internet yet. Anyway, updates are here: http://perfected-insanity.blogspot.com/2008/10/did-first-engineers-work-on-engines.html

tonight I pulled water pump and pipe off the block, pulled oil pan, and removed the pistons and have them soaking in kerosene to clean some of the burned on gunk off. Is there any better way? Some of these deposits are quite hard... Also, whats my best bet for cleaning the head?

I borrowed a valve spring compressor from autozone, but it;s the screw type and I dont think it's going to fit over the springs the way they sit in the head. Looks like i'll need to borrow one of these type??? http://www.pbase.com/rmscott/image/50719711 ??

Also, whats your fav online store for ordering parts? I'll be doing that soon. I've used this site in the past www.autopartswarehouse.com , but it's sometimes hard to find replacement bolts for broken ones and such. I'd love to be able to pick out parts from a schematic like this bike site: http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/honda-motorcycle-cb700sc-nighthawk-700-1985/o/m9661

When you pull the pullys with the puller (tongue teaser) Take the bolt all the way out then thread it back in 3-4 threads and use the puller to screw down on the bolt head, then itll break it loose remove the bolt and remove pully with your hand its extremely easy after its broke loose. We just did mine about 2 weeks ago, and I Suggest you leave the motor in the car, It wasnt that hard to do, the hardest part leaving the motor in is the intake bolts. You will also need to use a floor jack to move the motor around to get some of the bolts out. We did it in about 8 hours of work time from start to finish just swapping a different head in and a new belt.

When you pull the pullys with the puller (tongue teaser) Take the bolt all the way out then thread it back in 3-4 threads and use the puller to screw down on the bolt head, then itll break it loose remove the bolt and remove pully with your hand its extremely easy after its broke loose. We just did mine about 2 weeks ago, and I Suggest you leave the motor in the car, It wasnt that hard to do, the hardest part leaving the motor in is the intake bolts. You will also need to use a floor jack to move the motor around to get some of the bolts out. We did it in about 8 hours of work time from start to finish just swapping a different head in and a new belt.

I dont know if you didnt catch the second page, but the engine is already out...

Looks good man. I would just go ahead and replace all of the valves. I got a set of topline valves for a little over 110$ shipped for both intake and exhaust. You could try wire brushing the pistons. Also oven cleaner works great for cleaning the head/block. And cleaning all of the carbon out of the intake manifold as well.

Looks good man. I would just go ahead and replace all of the valves. I got a set of topline valves for a little over 110$ shipped for both intake and exhaust. You could try wire brushing the pistons. Also oven cleaner works great for cleaning the head/block. And cleaning all of the carbon out of the intake manifold as well.


Wont a wirebrush scratch the surface??? Brass brush maybe?


Where did you get your valves because mine are looking to be $120 for 8. If I can get all of them for that cost i'll definitely do that.

I'll try some of the oven cleaner. One question though, why is there carbon in the intake manifold. No combustion takes place in there... ???

Wont a wirebrush scratch the surface??? Brass brush maybe?


Where did you get your valves because mine are looking to be $120 for 8. If I can get all of them for that cost i'll definitely do that.

I'll try some of the oven cleaner. One question though, why is there carbon in the intake manifold. No combustion takes place in there... ???

Found my TopLine valves on eBay for ~$100. Concept Illusions has them on their website I believe also.

The carbon in the IM comes from the EGR valve. It recirculates exhaust gas back into the intake manifold. It's supposed to help on gas mileage and emissions, but who knows. You can disable to the EGR valve, but the check engine light will go on and you won't pass emissions testing.

The carbon in the IM comes from the EGR valve. It recirculates exhaust gas back into the intake manifold. It's supposed to help on gas mileage and emissions, but who knows. You can disable to the EGR valve, but the check engine light will go on and you won't pass emissions testing.

Ahhh... that makes more sense... I'll see what I can find. Are there any brands of valves I should stick to? I know it's a subjective question, but I'm new to this...

Ahhh... that makes more sense... I'll see what I can find. Are there any brands of valves I should stick to? I know it's a subjective question, but I'm new to this...

Honestly TopLine is a good brand. It's OEM specs, nothing special. You can always goto a dealership and buy those, but you'll be looking at a pretty penny for stockers. I actually think TopLine valves are slightly stronger than stock, but don't quote me on that. I've had no problems with mine.

Here's what CI offers. This is pretty standard price. Again, can find cheaper on eBay.

http://www.cimotorsports.net/motor-sports/valves/

Thanks. Those look a lot more reasonable.

As for cleaning, I picked up some stuff called Chem-Dip. Works miracles! For photos: http://www.perfected-insanity.blogspot.com/

Ordered Valves today. Will take block and head to shop after I get them and get the crankshaft gear off. Any suggestions? I got a gear puller (which didnt come with the M6 bolts needed for the threads on the gear.) I had a couple M6 around , but it's on so good I broke the screws off. Is there something I'm missing that's holding this on?


Thanks for all your guys help. It's saved me hours of frustrations.

bump...

bump...

Don't know. I've never taken mine off before. Silvr would be better at this answer. Seems like a crow bar and some muscle would do it... but that's my answer for everything.

bump... i now Got the gear off with some new hardware. Now for a couple more questions...


Piston Rings - Should I replace them? They have no problems and look in tact. Is there any benefit in replacing them? Remember the problem was the valves.

Oil Pump - Replace? I read around that I should while I'm at it. If I do do I just need the 2 gears inside, or it is the entire assembly that mounts to the block?

Valve Seals - Since there was contact with valves and the pistons should these be replaced? Also what is the best way of removing them from the head?

Anything else pertinant to replace to prevent major engine repairs in the near future?

Piston Rings - Should I replace them? They have no problems and look in tact. Is there any benefit in replacing them? Remember the problem was the valves.

Never hurts. Depends on how much time you have. Then you can ask, should I replace the pistons too? Then you can keep asking questions about what else to replace. If you're pulling the pistons, then change them. If not, don't worry.



Oil Pump - Replace? I read around that I should while I'm at it. If I do do I just need the 2 gears inside, or it is the entire assembly that mounts to the block?


Yes. Replace it. May as well since you're in there and they're not too expensive. Just buy a rebuilt unit (the whole assembly). You can get a Top Line pump on eBay for like $120 I want to say.



Valve Seals - Since there was contact with valves and the pistons should these be replaced? Also what is the best way of removing them from the head?

If you buy a gasket set for the motor, the valves seals usually come with. Replace them. You can also buy those separately for like $15 a set or so IIRC. Not too expensive again. To remove them, once the valves are out, take a screw driver and hammer, and tap it from all angles. Can also take some pliers and pull the hell out of it.


Anything else pertinant to replace to prevent major engine repairs in the near future?

Has the water pump ever been replaced? How about the timing belt tensioner? and pulleys? If you got a timing job done, those should have all been replaced, but if not or had a lot of miles since then, go for it.

Yes replace the rings and hone the cylinders. Pistons are fine to reuse just clean them up some. I just bought a whole new oil pump but you can rebuild them for about half the price of a new one. I didn't want to mess with that though.

Valve seals just get some pliers on them and pull hard as hell and they will come off.

Replace bearing and have the crank polished. Replace headstuds as the stock ones stretch when you torque them. Also timing belt, both pulleys, tensioner, and water pump. Dave covered most of this but just backing him up.

You should be good after that. A brand new motor.

Yes replace the rings and hone the cylinders. Pistons are fine to reuse just clean them up some. I just bought a whole new oil pump but you can rebuild them for about half the price of a new one. I didn't want to mess with that though.

I'll post pics on the pistons that are cleaned up. That Chem Dip did miracles...


Valve seals just get some pliers on them and pull hard as hell and they will come off.
Am I pulling them through the top of bottom of the head? Also... valve guides... important to replace?


Replace bearing and have the crank polished. Replace headstuds as the stock ones stretch when you torque them. Also timing belt, both pulleys, tensioner, and water pump. Dave covered most of this but just backing him up.
These are all the bearings on the piston connecting rods as well as the main bearing for the crankshaft? I've got main and Rod bearings budgeted. Timing belt and water pump have already been replaced as this is what caused the issue in the first place. Tensioner and pulleys will have to be replaced... as well as new oil pump budgeted.

Is there any point in doing anything to the camshafts? Remember... i'm not looking to spend a fortune. Just want to do stuff that could go wrong soon. there is no apparent damage, Is there any point in having these polished as well? Even if this is going to be a stocker?

Never hurts. Depends on how much time you have. Then you can ask, should I replace the pistons too? Then you can keep asking questions about what else to replace. If you're pulling the pistons, then change them. If not, don't worry.
I might as well I guess. I've already pulled the entire engine, and the pistons are already out and being cleaned. I didnt feel good putting the head back onto this http://www.flickr.com/photos/perfected-insanity/2907349254/


Things look like they are finally coming together. :)

There's nothing to do to the camshafts. Just leave them as is.

The way I see it, may as well replace the stuff since you're in there anyways. Will save time later.

Valve seals go up. Guides usually don't have to be replaced, but if there was contact with the pistons it's probably recommended to change.

Guides usually don't have to be replaced, but if there was contact with the pistons it's probably recommended to change.


Exactly. They may be fine but I would have them looked over by the machinist who is working on the head just to be sure. I didn't replace mine but I think you just knock them out and put the new ones in. Deoending on price you may just want to do those also. I dont think they are real expensive.

Seems like you got everything else covered. Plastigage all of your bearing clearences when you put it back together and make sure they are in spec and you should be good to go.

Thanks all. Here's an update: http://perfected-insanity.blogspot.com/2008/11/fixing-that-junk-in-trunk.html

Thanks all. Here's an update: http://perfected-insanity.blogspot.com/2008/11/fixing-that-junk-in-trunk.html

Ah looking at the trunk reminds me that I have to do alot of fabbing next year in there. Lots of rust from a dripping hatch caused some rusting and I had a chunk behind the driver-side rear wheel where the drain hole is literally dissolve away :eek7: Can't wait to pull the whole trunk apart and get in there with the welder.

So is the motor done then?

Not quite yet. Just waiting on it to come back from the shop. Then it's assembly time :) One of these Months This thing will run once again.

One of these Months This thing will run once again.

Ahh one of the most used quotes by a DSMer

Here's a Teaser. Hopefully she will be back in this shape soon.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3177/3048830578_c41fdccb22_o.jpg


Compared to



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3154/3024529241_bec0b00245_o.jpg

Update: Parts have arrived, but assembly has been delayed due to unrelated events. http://perfected-insanity.blogspot.com/2008/12/moxie-drain.html I have some time off of work for the holidays and will be making some progress soon. I'll make sure to update with questions I'm sure to have :)

Update: Parts have arrived, but assembly has been delayed due to unrelated events. http://perfected-insanity.blogspot.com/2008/12/moxie-drain.html I have some time off of work for the holidays and will be making some progress soon. I'll make sure to update with questions I'm sure to have :)

That sucks. It doesn't look too bad from the pics. Still sucks though. At least it's still drivable right?

It was driveable, i got it back to where I work (4 hours away from the crash scene) and it's in the shop now. Over $4k of damage :(

Geico insurance has been super good so far. They were super helpful on anything I had questions about. We'll see how they fare when it comes to payment. I should have only my deductible....

It was driveable, i got it back to where I work (4 hours away from the crash scene) and it's in the shop now. Over $4k of damage :(

Geico insurance has been super good so far. They were super helpful on anything I had questions about. We'll see how they fare when it comes to payment. I should have only my deductible....

Wow that was 4k? Hell when I smashed the font of my Talon I ended up spending less than $2k total. And that's with aftermarket headlights, CF hood and slight frame straightening and bumper paint. Although I did most of the work myself so that makes a difference too I guess.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/P8240091Custom.jpg

There was a lot of damage underneath as well. Power steering coil, new radiator, a large brace for the bumper, horn, both headlights, etc etc.... all direct from Jeep. Not cheap I'm sure. All in all, it could of been a lot worse. Nobody was hurt (had my sister in the car with me) and the other truck got the short straw. Damage to everything bumper to the drivers door. They had to start cutting away at the body so he could turn the wheel to leave.


On the topic of the eclipse. Looks like i hit another setback. Crank will likely have to be polished now. It was in garage, someone left door open and spray from recent rains caused corrosion. I'll see if I can get some pics later. I really don't want to ruin a new set of bearings due to something stupid like that. I'll be happy to start getting things put back together. It's getting cramped with everything laying out.

Wow that sucks man. You should have planned on polishing the crank anyways.

There was a lot of damage underneath as well. Power steering coil, new radiator, a large brace for the bumper, horn, both headlights, etc etc.... all direct from Jeep. Not cheap I'm sure. All in all, it could of been a lot worse. Nobody was hurt (had my sister in the car with me) and the other truck got the short straw. Damage to everything bumper to the drivers door. They had to start cutting away at the body so he could turn the wheel to leave.

I had all the same on my car, except the power steering dealie. But I killed the A/C but I pulled that all out anyways. But from the dealer is where it gets expensive. All that matters is no one was hurt though.

Updates: Making progress now!!

http://perfected-insanity.blogspot.com/2008/12/crank-and-roll.html