The 996 vs M3 statistics

The numbers don't lie!

More.

Acceleration BMW M3 911 C2
0 - 40 Km/h 1,6 s 1,4 s
0 - 60 Km/h 2,5 s 2,3 s
0 - 80 Km/h 3,9 s 3,5 s
0 - 100 Km/h 5,2 s 4,9 s
0 - 120 Km/h 7,1 s 6,8 s
0 - 140 Km/h 9 s 8,8 s
0 - 160 Km/h 11,4 s 11 s
0 - 180 Km/h 14,7 s 14,2 s
0 - 200 Km/h 18,1 s 17,9 s
Top Speed 250 Km/h 280 Km/h


Sorry it's all in Km's its from a british site:licker:

Is ps equivilant to hp?
And what's the conversion factor for N-m-->lb-ft?

nice comparison

Numbers Schnumbers, what that comparison fails to mention is that while the M3 actually has a real, functional back seat, the only people that are going to fit in the rear of the 911 are legless dwarves, :smoka: and with the M3 one can actually carry baggage on trips. Make both cars weigh the same, then lets see who's faster!:smoka:

<< Sorry it's all in Km's its from a british site >>

With all due respect, it's also from a Porsche-lover's site.

The 0-60mph time of the E46 M3 is ~4.8 seconds. That would be 0-100kph in about 4.9-4.95 seconds. As for the rest of the stats, the M3 is much closer to the 996 in all but a few.

Also, for reference, my slightly modded (but still naturally-aspirated) 1995 E36 M3 beat a 996 about 3 weeks ago. I think that guy was pretty upset about that, considering he paid so much more than I did! (And I've got a nice back seat, nice trunk space, better fuel mileage, better braking, and can way out-handle him in the turns!)

Speaking of numbers that don't lie, let's talk MONEY numbers (i.e., bang-for-the-buck)!

I've got about $40,000 invested in my car so far with purchase price, full restoration and mods. And the Porsche 996 (i.e., the new 911), depending on the variant, costs anywhere between $70,000 and $182,000!!!!!

So for the price of even the cheapest 911, I could have my car plus another one just like it (maybe in silver?, ~$20,000 fully restored), except with an Active Autowerke Stage-II Turbo System (~$10,000, 0-60 in around 4.0 seconds!!!) And I'll beat the Porsche with either one! I should really use the naturally-aspirated M3 to do it...gotta give the little Stuttgarter a chance, you know! Wouldn't be fair using the forced-induction M3 against it.

"BMW...There Is No Substitute!"

As a previous owner of a 330ci there is no doubting that BMW makes a great car, There is no disputing that. When you place an M3 against a 996 there are certain variables to take into concideration. Tiptronics, Convertibles and Carerra 4's are a little slower due to a weight increase, And lets face it, Most of the guys out there are old retired guys who don't push the car hard.
As far as bang for the buck, The 996 is a more expensive car for more than one reason. They are more of a limited production car than BMW,
The fit and finish of a full leather interior is like no other, and is all hand stiched, A Porsche also has VW reliability, They are built like tanks. How many E46 M3's have had their engines replaced now?...As for the back seat thing, I don't buy a sports car to cart my friends around. The function of the rear seats, is only for storage, A set of golf clubs, suitcase ...etc.

Not to say that you didn't win your race against the 996, But I find it hard to belive you beat him with a 240 BHP M3, Are you sure he was racing? How do you figure you can out handle a 996?... With a set of springs? :rolleyes:

Dont make me break out track times

If I am not mistaken these are the numbers for your M3...In U.S.

Horsepower 240 BHP @ 6000 RPM
Torque 236 Ft-lbs @ 3800 RPM
0-60 mph 5.6 sec
1/4 Mile 14.2
Top Speed 137 mph

These are the numbers for the 996 in 2000

Max. Power 300HP @ 6800 RPM
Max. Torque 258 (350) at 4600 RPM
0 - 60 mph 4.8 sec
0 - 100 mph 11.9
1/4 mile 13.5
Top Speed 175 mph

:rolleyes:

If you want to talk about sticking a 10,000 turbo on an E36 you should read up on the new TPC Supercharger for the 996 which will eat 996 Turbos for breakfast. Or the normaly aspirated 381 bhp @ 7,400 RPM
GT3 that is coming to the U.S. ...You dont think that car offers bang for the buck? 996 Turbo numbers for $99,000:sun:
http://www2.uk.porsche.com/english/gbr/911/gt3/bilder/intro_foto.jpg

...and I know they are very limited-production. After I buy my X5 4.6i, I've seriously thought about a Porsche 996 next.

And if you don't need the back seat, that's understandable. As for me, my M3 is my daily driver, and I love the fact that I've got the performance with me at all times, plus the fact that I can take three clients to lunch as well. Rarely need the rear seat for storage, though, since my trunk can hold my huge 29" Tumi, plus some other bags as well.

Also, I didn't beat him with 240 bhp. I did it with about 290 bhp. My car's engine is balanced and blueprinted, and recently was graced with a Euro/Conforti intake and chip upgrade, plus some heavier fuel injectors. The kit was about $1250 and good for 32-40 more bhp, depending on application and other variables. And he was clearly racing (he looked to be about my age)...his engine was revving high and fast as he wound out his gears, and if I was stock, he'd have taken me without too much trouble.

As for handling, the M3 is arguably one of the top handling cars in the world, even with stock suspension, as mine is; especially the more serious E36 models (compared to the higher-lux E46s). Although the M3 numbers are nice to look at, there's a lot more to handling than those numbers. You've got f/r balance (50.1/49.9 in my M3), under/oversteer characteristics, etc. Many more variables in handling than in straight-line stats.

My 0-60 time, stock, was 5.5 seconds. With the B+B'ed engine (about 250-255 bhp) it's more like 5.3-5.35. My quarter is considerably faster than the stock number, and my top speed governer has been removed by the performance chip. I'll top out around 165. F/I E36 M3s can go around 175...more with a lower final drive number.

With my Conforti kit, my 0-60 time is more like 4.9 seconds...so close to the 996 stats that it's down to who's the better driver.

The TPC S/C for the 996 is $9,795.00, so even of you're putting it on the lowest-line 996, now you're spending ~$80,000! Oh, what I could do to an OBD-I M3 for $80K!

For that money, I could have a showroom condition E36 M3, replace the engine with a S50B32 Euro-spec engine (starts me with 321bhp), AA Stage-II Turbo (+~150bhp), AA chip, Schrick cams, Supersprint exhaust, headers, larger intake manifold, larger throttle-body, Euro HFM, underdrive pulleys, Dinan Stage-III suspension, huge Brembo brakes, HRE wheels, S-06 tires, and a $5000 audio system! I could afford the added weight of the audio system and still take the S/Ced 996.

And after all of this, I've still only spent around $65K - $70K!

My bhp would exceed 500, plenty to put me in front of the 431bhp TPC'ed Porsche.

And if you put considerably MORE money into the 996, then to match dollar-for-dollar, I'll be up to an F1-comparable engine soon (or maybe some interesting experiments with the Euro-spec 3.2 would be more fun), and suspension to match. Then we're talking 0-60 in ~2.6 seconds, top speed around 240MPH! And well over 1.20 g's on the pad.

So the 996 Turbo is $99,000, huh? OK, for that money, I'm going 0-60 in 3.0-3.2 seconds. The Porsche 996 Turbo, I think, is around 3.7, right?

I'm not saying Porsches are not great cars...I love them myself. I'm just saying that dollar-for-dollar, Porsche will never catch the M3.

A better argument for the Porsche would be the styling. People definitely drool over the 996 more than they do my M3! Even *I* do!

Do Porsche's have mad oversteer?

Not really MAD oversteer, but you can definitely feel it, from what I've heard people say. The latest 911 variant I have driven so far was a 1993 911 C2, soon after they first came out, and it had some measurable oversteer, but managable just the same. Not as nasty as, say, a Viper. It's just what happens, though, in rear-drive rear-engine cars.

In my M3, I have to really force it to oversteer...almost trick the car into doing it. If I leave the handling to its own devices (i.e., take a curve evenly when possible), then the car will give a nice, flat lateral g-rate, not favoring front OR rear. I can simply push it right to the edge with more speed, at which point all tires will begin to let go, ever so slightly. Then I can just hold it there, right at the edge. The handling is very predictable. That's why cars with even higher g-specs on the pad can't always hang with an M3 on the track.

It's more a matter of *control* than *numbers* when it comes to handling characteristics.

It also takes alot for the tail to break loose, especially with 285' Pirelli's on the back. My Modena has traction control that tames the car very well. When you switch it off it is amazing how much more power the car has, You can sit and light up the tires through four gears.

To quote ScorLibran,
"So the 996 Turbo is $99,000, huh? OK, for that money, I'm going 0-60 in 3.0-3.2 seconds. The Porsche 996 Turbo, I think, is around 3.7, right"

The 996 Turbo is not $99,000.00 that would be a bargain. The GT3 is 99 Grand ... The Turbo is around 130 - 160 for an X50.


'For that money, I could have a showroom condition E36 M3, replace the engine with a S50B32 Euro-spec engine (starts me with 321bhp), AA Stage-II Turbo (+~150bhp), AA chip, Schrick cams, Supersprint exhaust, headers, larger intake manifold, larger throttle-body, Euro HFM, underdrive pulleys, Dinan Stage-III suspension, huge Brembo brakes, HRE wheels, S-06 tires, and a $5000 audio system! I could afford the added weight of the audio system and still take the S/Ced 996."


You forget that If we are talking about pre-owned cars, as you are about an E36. A 99' 996 can be purchased for around 55,000.00. You could add the super charger to it, be at 400 Hp and still be under 70 Grand, You would already have Brembo's on it "ala factory"
:eek: I dosent matter how much HP your engine has, There is still the factor of getting the car to hook up and go, Where an all wheel drive turbo would have an advantage.


It sounds to me like you are into the "Sleeper" thing. Having lot's of hidden HP in a not so obvious shell. Am I right?:p I had a friend who owned a Cyclone, and added a Corvette LS1 engine to it. It was sick HP!

Sorry, misread your line describing the price of the GT3 vs. 996 Turbo.

<<You forget that If we are talking about pre-owned cars, as you are about an E36. A 99' 996 can be purchased for around 55,000.00. You could add the super charger to it, be at 400 Hp and still be under 70 Grand, You would already have Brembo's on it "ala factory"
I dosent matter how much HP your engine has, There is still the factor of getting the car to hook up and go, Where an all wheel drive turbo would have an advantage. >>

True, I am really only referring to which car, the M3 or the 996, gives the best "bang-for-the-buck". And I agree that the stock 996, in any year, is a higher performance platform than an E36 M3, and very close to the performace of an E46 (still debatable, I'm sure). But it is also considerably more expensive, leaving a lot of room for the very flexible M3 to be modified up to the total cost of the Porsche.

As for traction, I do indeed have a great respect for the traction characteristics of the C4-class 911 platform, and I'd actually like to see the theoretical experiments we are discussing sitting on a track side-by-side to see what the outcome would be. The traction characteristics of the M3 also shouldn't be overlooked, as my car is not far from 300bhp, and I actually have trouble spinning a tire (even without DSC). Traction and handling specs of the E36 M3 are impressive, and the real-world experience is even better. And the modification possibilities are wide-ranging, so the already impressive specs can be greatly improved upon while still keeping the price below that of a comparible 996 (even a pre-owned one).

As I see it, you are a fan of the 996 and I am a fan of the M3, and we'll probably never sway each other's position on this matter. But we also clearly both have a respect for both platforms, and that's about the best we can do for middle ground. ;)

As for my affinity for "sleepers", you are right on the money! My M3 is naturally-aspirated, and it will stay that way. My performance goal is to see how fast I can make an N/A E36 M3 go with the original W50USB30. I say I can get ~325bhp (maybe more) with only bolt-on mods and a cam kit.

Since we all know that 325 German hp = ~450 American hp, I look forward to destroying the confidence of many a Z06 Corvette owner out there! :D

My final goal...a sub-4.5 second E36 M3, with a naturally-aspirated US-spec engine. Pulling a second or more off the stock 0-60 spec with minor mods should be considered a decent accomplishment!

Future purchases (after the E36 project is complete):
> BMW X5 4.6i (Unless anyone can talk me into a Cayenne :eek: But do I REALLY NEED to get to 60 faster than 6.2 secs in an SUV???)
> Porsche 996 (the more I learn about them)

In regard to your friend putting an LS1 engine into a Cyclone...I have yet to run into one of the GM "supertrucks", but I'm sure I will someday. Didn't the Typhoon have something like a 4.3 second 0-60 time? There's something about an M3 or a 996 getting smoked by a pickup truck that just doesn't seem right to me!

Anyway, thanks for the insight on everything!

If you could only have either your Porsche or your Ferrari, which would you have?

I love both cars, and I am wondering which model I'd like to buy when the time comes (hopefully within a couple of years).

It seems like the Porsche would be a little more practical to own and a little less expensive to maintain, but the Ferrari would be somewhat more of a jaw-dropper. Whichever one I decided on, it wouldn't be a daily driver (that's what my M3 is for). I would want it mostly for the pedigree of the car, the essence and for the extreme performance.

I think you hit the nail on the head with you last post.
If you are looking at SUV's make sure you test drive an infiniti FX 45
I did, and it was amazing. I too love the 4.6, but BMW is refreshing the look of the 4.4 and adding more HP. :D

Great site for automotive insider info!
www.autospies.com

Here is a thread about both of my cars in comparison.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=899217#post899217

Cheers,
Jeru.

Good depate by the way :p

Actually the above attachments from Jeru are the first I have seen showing the 996 is quicker than the new M.
Road and Track managed 4.7 0-60 and 13.3 at 106.8 in the M and 4.9 0-60, 13.5 105.1 in an 02 320hp Carrera. The M braking was 112ft from 60mph and 200ft from 80mph with the Carrera 117ft and 204ft respectively. Both were .91 on the skidpad. I don't have the issue with the complete road test but these numbers are in the digest results at the back of every issue.
Motor Trend got 4.7 0-60 and 13.1 107.0 in the 1/4 with the M but I found no test results there fore the Carrera 2. The M managed 69.0 mph in the Slalom test which beats their results with both the Carrera 4, 68.4 and the 911 Turbo 68.6.
As far as track lap times my only arguement is that it's not a very accurate comparison when the runs are a couple of days apart never mind a couple of years. The numbers don't lie but they change from time to time

;)

They are both bad ass cars.

Originally posted by NSX
Is ps equivilant to hp?
And what's the conversion factor for N-m-->lb-ft?

1 N-M = .737463 ft-lb

1 PS = .9875389 hp

Originally posted by ScorLibran

For that money, I could have a showroom condition E36 M3, replace the engine with a S50B32 Euro-spec engine (starts me with 321bhp), AA Stage-II Turbo (+~150bhp), AA chip, Schrick cams, Supersprint exhaust, headers, larger intake manifold, larger throttle-body, Euro HFM, underdrive pulleys, Dinan Stage-III suspension, huge Brembo brakes, HRE wheels, S-06 tires, and a $5000 audio system! I could afford the added weight of the audio system and still take the S/Ced 996.


uhhh . . . AA never made a turbo for the evo (s50) M3s, u are living in a dream world with these modifications

AA never made a chip for the evo M3 (especially one with a turbo)

shrick cams are designed for N/A s52s . . .

an exhaust system (including a header, yes header . . . its an inline motor) would need to be custom fabrication

a new intake manifold would also cost out the ass, as that would also have to be specifically made for the custom turbo tuning u would have to do

larger throttle body? remember, the s50 is not ur run of the mill s52 derived from the m52, it is a true M motor with 6 throttle bodies, one per each cylinder (which inevitably would have to be specifically tuned for a turbo application)

for a 500hp+ evo M3 u are looking at some serious custom fabrication and tuning involved . . . i dont even know if the performance numbers u are quoting would even be possible

euro HFM? remember . . . u were talking a EURO s50 motor . . .

what exactly is a "Dinan Stage III Suspension" ??

and u want to throw in a $5k audio system? with all the custom fabrication and hours of tuning involved, r u sure thats the wisest choice?

there would be so much work involved in trying to get an s50 to make 500hp from a turbo its not even funny

Originally posted by BlOOe46

there would be so much work involved in trying to get an s50 to make 500hp from a turbo its not even funny

Not as much as you think. Look at my signature....

Originally posted by BlOOe46


uhhh . . . AA never made a turbo for the evo (s50) M3s, u are living in a dream world with these modifications

AA never made a chip for the evo M3 (especially one with a turbo)



http://www.da-motorsport.com/

and there's 3 other companies who are making turbo kits for euro m3's.

I'll have to wait till monday at work (I work at active btw) and look up
my bookmarks.

I love the M3; however if I had to choose between the two I think I would pick the Porsche.

Several of my friends own M3s both new and old. I myself have a 540I 6spd(2 kids). If someone was to say pick one of these cars and you can have it I would take the Porsche 996 for a few reasons.
Not as many people own Porsches.
I believe stock it could out handle the stock M3(maybe not I have never driven the Porsche). I think they look a little sleeker even though the M3 looks incredible.
If you talk about modifications I believe that the 6 in the M3 is so strung out right now that trying to do much more might be asking for disaster. The BMW already offers more HP per liter than almost any other car made. The Porsche flat 6 can be modified to atleast the power of a GT2 if not more just by adding some Turbos and exhaust 550 HP(maybe more).
In regards to Body Modifications I remember growing up seeing pictures of 911 Stroesk or Gambella body kits in magazines and always wanted to drive one. The kits for BMW are not quite as flashy even though I understand that is not what every driver wants. I think they look nice.

I would definately have to drive both before I decided though.

Yes, we all know the Porsche is faster but does that really make you smart? lets see, you spent all that money on a faster car that you can't even use for what it was designed for because of speed limits and other slower cars, so in reality you're just speeding through life trying to catch up to the next asshole driving a Chevi Malibu down the road, just so you can risk you life trying to pass him and then you end up with a spare tire in your gut because you hit a Suburban that's coming the other way....good going genious!

Yes, we all know the Porsche is faster but does that really make you smart? lets see, you spent all that money on a faster car that you can't even use for what it was designed for because of speed limits and other slower cars, so in reality you're just speeding through life trying to catch up to the next asshole driving a Chevi Malibu down the road, just so you can risk you life trying to pass him and then you end up with a spare tire in your gut because you hit a Suburban that's coming the other way....good going genious!

Perhaps because you drive a Ford Taurus you have not experienced the class and sophistication that either of these performance autos provide. It is not only about driving fast. Yes I like to cruise at 90+, but I also love every option a better car offers. Like rain sensing wind shield wipers, auto leveling xenon headlights, 9 airbags, auto adjusting seats, completly quiet interior at high speed, automatic climate control, GPS Navigation, Harmon Kardon sound system, heated 12 way adjustable seats, park distance control, and all the other nice qualities they provide over lets say a Ford Taurus. I used to have a 89 ford taurus 3.6 and yes I thought it was a decent automobile, but it does not hold a candle to either of these machines. If you think it is all about speed your wrong.

I've come to the realization that people only buy cars for vanity.

Ok guys. Enough of the philisophical crap. Lets be civil about our passion.

Whether you own a BMW or a Porsche, its not about speed, its about the art of driving.

It doesn't sound like Mr. Taurus has ever driven a German SPORTS car, so what's he doing on this board?

Anyway, I have an E36 M3, but I aspire to the 996. Yes the M3 is great. Had it over a year and still can't get enough seat time. But I think a Porsche is about as good as it gets. ( I've never driven a Ferrari so I can't compare) Haven't Drivin a 996 yet, But I have driven a Boxter S. So I imagine the 996 is even better!

And Scor is right about the E46 being quicker than the 996. All the stats I've ever read suggest that.

The nicest thing about owning a 996 is that Porsche owners don't sit around talking about how our cars compare agains BMW M3's.

Have fun boys!

See ya in the mirror! ;-)

i really dont have a favorite between the M3 or the 911...both are increadible cars. but for the money i would take a m3, it 1, out handels and out performs the 911 (im talking about a E46) but then again if u compared the 99' E36 m3 to the 99' 996 the m3 might be a tiny bit slower but it still out performs it in handling...no matter what u say the bmw has better handling. there was a reveiw in a old motor trend magazine between a number of cars, some included the 97 Ferrari 355 F1 berlinetta, the 97 m3, the 97 911, the corvette, the acura nsx, and other cars. from what i remember the m3 beat all of the cars, YES THAT INCLUDED THE FERRARI AND THE NSX. if u guys want i could find the article and post it back here.

http://mlounge.home.comcast.net/CD_article/title.html

thats the website for the article from car and driver... i know i posted it as motortrend but i got the magazine confused. read it and then all of you will have a diff opinion on the m3's handeling and acceleration capabilities

umm look at racing- BMW's racing heritage sucks compared to porsche and audi so how can you say porcshe will never compete with bmw- when all is said and done and both manufactures take their factory race cars to the track BMW is usually not even spoken of and porcshe and audi and even subaru/ mitsubishi are at the top of the pack- BMW is only a production road car, nothing more- they cant compete in racing and your dream M3 with 600hp would blow up with massive internal engine failure after about 3 hard pulls- M3's realiability after about 350 hp in the inline 6 are horrible- engine wasnt engineered to withstand more than the 330hp! Porcshe u can mod to 600hp with little worries, try bolting all that on a M3 and see what happens lol


...and I know they are very limited-production. After I buy my X5 4.6i, I've seriously thought about a Porsche 996 next.

And if you don't need the back seat, that's understandable. As for me, my M3 is my daily driver, and I love the fact that I've got the performance with me at all times, plus the fact that I can take three clients to lunch as well. Rarely need the rear seat for storage, though, since my trunk can hold my huge 29" Tumi, plus some other bags as well.

Also, I didn't beat him with 240 bhp. I did it with about 290 bhp. My car's engine is balanced and blueprinted, and recently was graced with a Euro/Conforti intake and chip upgrade, plus some heavier fuel injectors. The kit was about $1250 and good for 32-40 more bhp, depending on application and other variables. And he was clearly racing (he looked to be about my age)...his engine was revving high and fast as he wound out his gears, and if I was stock, he'd have taken me without too much trouble.

As for handling, the M3 is arguably one of the top handling cars in the world, even with stock suspension, as mine is; especially the more serious E36 models (compared to the higher-lux E46s). Although the M3 numbers are nice to look at, there's a lot more to handling than those numbers. You've got f/r balance (50.1/49.9 in my M3), under/oversteer characteristics, etc. Many more variables in handling than in straight-line stats.

My 0-60 time, stock, was 5.5 seconds. With the B+B'ed engine (about 250-255 bhp) it's more like 5.3-5.35. My quarter is considerably faster than the stock number, and my top speed governer has been removed by the performance chip. I'll top out around 165. F/I E36 M3s can go around 175...more with a lower final drive number.

With my Conforti kit, my 0-60 time is more like 4.9 seconds...so close to the 996 stats that it's down to who's the better driver.

The TPC S/C for the 996 is $9,795.00, so even of you're putting it on the lowest-line 996, now you're spending ~$80,000! Oh, what I could do to an OBD-I M3 for $80K!

For that money, I could have a showroom condition E36 M3, replace the engine with a S50B32 Euro-spec engine (starts me with 321bhp), AA Stage-II Turbo (+~150bhp), AA chip, Schrick cams, Supersprint exhaust, headers, larger intake manifold, larger throttle-body, Euro HFM, underdrive pulleys, Dinan Stage-III suspension, huge Brembo brakes, HRE wheels, S-06 tires, and a $5000 audio system! I could afford the added weight of the audio system and still take the S/Ced 996.

And after all of this, I've still only spent around $65K - $70K!

My bhp would exceed 500, plenty to put me in front of the 431bhp TPC'ed Porsche.

And if you put considerably MORE money into the 996, then to match dollar-for-dollar, I'll be up to an F1-comparable engine soon (or maybe some interesting experiments with the Euro-spec 3.2 would be more fun), and suspension to match. Then we're talking 0-60 in ~2.6 seconds, top speed around 240MPH! And well over 1.20 g's on the pad.

So the 996 Turbo is $99,000, huh? OK, for that money, I'm going 0-60 in 3.0-3.2 seconds. The Porsche 996 Turbo, I think, is around 3.7, right?

I'm not saying Porsches are not great cars...I love them myself. I'm just saying that dollar-for-dollar, Porsche will never catch the M3.

A better argument for the Porsche would be the styling. People definitely drool over the 996 more than they do my M3! Even *I* do!