Wrong master cylinder - should I worry?

I just got a new master cylinder for my 69 Cougar. It is not an exact match. The lower hose connection is in a different spot. Should I be concerned about this or should I just deal with it, bend the hose and get a coupler? (the hole and the fitting are not the same size so I would have to get a connector/coupling). I don't think this should have any bearing on the efficacy of the system but wanted to check with some of you and see what your thoughts were.

Thanks!

Correct on the hook up, your concern is the bore diameter, it should never be less than the oe part.

With older parts, I like to keep and rebuild the original component whenever possible for this very reason; and also to maintain originality.

At the very least, keep the original master cyl if you can, just in case.

Aftermarket master cylinder? or is it the difference between front disc and front drum brake master cylinders?

(too lazy to look it up right now...)

Aftermarket master cylinder? or is it the difference between front disc and front drum brake master cylinders?

(too lazy to look it up right now...)
That is a good point. I believe all those Cougars had standard disc front brakes.
However, who knows what mc was shipped...........

On the new master cylinder, are both brake fluid reservoirs the same size, or is the front one larger?

Correct on the hook up, your concern is the bore diameter, it should never be less than the oe part.

Ok - I feel like a complete idiot but when I was going to bring the MC back I got the box and bag and... there was a coupling in the bag that fixed the diameter problem... *erk* sorry.

With older parts, I like to keep and rebuild the original component whenever possible for this very reason; and also to maintain originality.

At the very least, keep the original master cyl if you can, just in case.

Thanks MagicRat - I am going to keep the original MC and probably rebuild it. I am planning on keeping a lot of the parts I replace just to have the original parts and that way I can always possibly sell them later.


Aftermarket master cylinder? or is it the difference between front disc and front drum brake master cylinders?

(too lazy to look it up right now...)


That is a good point. I believe all those Cougars had standard disc front brakes.
However, who knows what mc was shipped...........

On the new master cylinder, are both brake fluid reservoirs the same size, or is the front one larger?

Correct, the cougar has the front disc and the rear drum. The the front reservior is bigger (on both the original and the replacement). The difference is, the fitting on the old cylinder came out of the side of the bigger reservior where as the fitting comes out of the bottom of the larger reservior on the new one. I will get a few pics posted up if possible. I think it will be ok, because the reserviors are pretty much the same (rounded a bit differently but approximately the same sizes, two large and two small).

Thank you guys tons. You are always a big help.

IMO install the new one and see how it performs.

Well, even with the adapter that they sent with it, I have a second line that is a different size. I am going to return it and try again. :(. I really want to be able to enjoy this convert before the weather starts to get colder!! I was hoping to have all the systems back together and ready for the exhaust shop this weekend, grrrrr :banghead:

Alright, how hard is it to rebuild a master cylinder? I would imagine it is pretty simple compared to all the things I am learning to do on this cougar.

The master cylinder talked about above, the one that has been a thorn in my side - well, we kept it because NAPA said we would refund all but the shipping on the part THEY got wrong. They gave us an adapter and we said ok - whatever, and took it home.

Well, after getting it all together - the last brake line, the one that is the most difficult to get to - well, it WON'T REACH! It is about 1/4" shy of reaching. The old MC had the fitting coming out the side, this one is out the bottom and it won't work. Traveled all over the stupid city today to see if someone had a 90degree angled fitting - no luck. SOooooo... perhaps I can just rebuild my old one - I want this car in the muffler shop THIS WEEK.

So, long story longer -can anyone tell me how much time it usually takes to rebuild a master cylinder?

:banghead:

Quite often, the parts to rebuild a master are more than a rebuilt master itself. I only rebuild the older ones if I can't get a rebuilt one.

Some of the older Cougars came with drum brakes all around. Like someone else mentioned, disc brake masters have one reservoir that is larger (for the front discs) than the other.

Whatever the case, the old one should be a pretty close match for the new one. Some aftermarket vendors make their own master, Bendix and wagner are some of them, those may look different than an original Ford/Mercury unit.

Bob

Quite often, the parts to rebuild a master are more than a rebuilt master itself. I only rebuild the older ones if I can't get a rebuilt one.

Some of the older Cougars came with drum brakes all around. Like someone else mentioned, disc brake masters have one reservoir that is larger (for the front discs) than the other.

Whatever the case, the old one should be a pretty close match for the new one. Some aftermarket vendors make their own master, Bendix and wagner are some of them, those may look different than an original Ford/Mercury unit.

Bob

My master (the wrong one) cost me right around $80, the rebuild kit is $25. I am finding out that by the book with these classic cars is not always the best way to go.

We got the MC we have in there to work. We were able to unbolt the proportioning valve from the body and move it forward the amount of space we needed to get it to connect. We are learning to think in different patterns and try other angles constantly with this rebuild. If nothing else, it is keeping things interesting. :cwm27:

We stayed up until 2am bleeding the brakes and getting all the loose ends tied up. She is now down off the jackstands and ready to roll to the muffler shop after I tighten the end links and straghten the wheels (it has terrible toe-in). Should be driving her by this weekend!

Thanks everybody!

Thank you for the update. Good luck :wink:

And yet another update. The incorrect master cylinder did not work. I found out from my friends on the cougar forum that NAPA has the wrong part number - the one they have listed for rear drum, front disc is actually the one for front and rear drum. Needless to say, this master clyinder is causing the front brakes not to work up to par and the brake light will not go off.

She is in the exhaust shop right now getting dual exhaust and flowmaster knockoffs - it should sound sooooo sweet when it gets done. I guess I will be doing the MC yet again this weekend. NAPA happens to have the correct one IN STOCK! Oh well, I still enjoy it, and now that I have done it a few times, it should be cake right? :banghead:

Hi,this is glory. I SMELL LIKE SPAM

^ Thanks for that.....I was worried this thread might stay on topic....:disappoin

Anyways.....Is the "correct" MC from Napa actually the right one?

^ Thanks for that.....I was worried this thread might stay on topic....:disappoin

:grinyes: yeah, that one was a dome scratcher.

Anyways.....Is the "correct" MC from Napa actually the right one?

Yes, I am almost certain it is the right one. It matches in look and location of all the ports EXACTLY. Unfortunately, we put it in this weekend, and it is not good news. I can't explain why but after getting this one in and bleeding the sytem, the brakes are actually worse. The right rear seems to be the only one working (not positive on this). The right rear tire will lock up completely when you press the brakes and the whole car lurches. The brakes lights are still on as well. We pulled it back into the garage and bled the entire system a second time but still have the same results. :banghead: Told my hubby we should just sell it... not going to of course but I am so frustrated right now I could scream. The only things left that have not been replaced are the distribution block and the proportioning valve. We have been given some things to try by someone on Mercury Forums and we will try that this week. I'll let you know what happens.

Oh, by the way - the exhaust sounds SWEEEEEET! Notes from heaven emitting from both pipes :wink:

One wierd thing that did happen - the first brake line that we bled with the new MC - the fluid came out red???? We bled the red fluid out but it did seem odd.

That one 'working' rear brake might have contaminated shoes.
I once got brake fluid on a set of shoes and it made that one brake extremely 'grabby' it would lock the tire before the other 3 brakes had a chance to work.
It does not take much spilled fluid to really affect them.

That one 'working' rear brake might have contaminated shoes.
I once got brake fluid on a set of shoes and it made that one brake extremely 'grabby' it would lock the tire before the other 3 brakes had a chance to work.
It does not take much spilled fluid to really affect them.

That sounds almost exactly like what it is doing and it is very possible with all this bleeding etc that it could have gotten fluid on the pad (except now I am scratching my head trying to figure how it got into the drum but.... If you are right, you will be my hero! I'll check on that first thing tonight. Although, not sure that would explain the brake light still being on. hmmmm.... Anyhow, I'll let you know.

I was told that the valve could be stuck and they gave me a theory on opening a bleeder, pushing the pedal quickly to the floor and monitoring if the brake light goes out. We will be doing that as well and if that doesn't work the valve is going to be taken out, cleaned and tried again.

Thank you!

Rae

Tried the quick pedal stomp last night - didn't work. However, I looked in depth into what is involved in the distribution block. Think I found the problem in there. There is a valve inside the distribution block that allows even flow for front and rear - I am pretty sure the valve has moved forward and is stuck in that position allowing the fluid to only flow to the back brakes.

I will be taking it out, taking the valve out, cleaning it up and going from there.

Tried the quick pedal stomp last night - didn't work. However, I looked in depth into what is involved in the distribution block. Think I found the problem in there. There is a valve inside the distribution block that allows even flow for front and rear - I am pretty sure the valve has moved forward and is stuck in that position allowing the fluid to only flow to the back brakes.

I will be taking it out, taking the valve out, cleaning it up and going from there.
That's happened to me before, usually after stomping on the brakes when a brake line has burst due to rust.
Sometimes there is a reset 'pin' on the valve that you can pull/push to get the valve to center itself.

That's happened to me before, usually after stomping on the brakes when a brake line has burst due to rust.
Sometimes there is a reset 'pin' on the valve that you can pull/push to get the valve to center itself.

Yikes! Hence why I replaced all my lines, I really don't want to be cruising along and have a line burst:eek:.

Well, took out the distribution block - the valve is completely seized. I cannot even pry it out with pliers. :crying: These brakes are truely becoming the bain of my existance. I managed to find a "repro" of types - it isn't OEM by any means and I will still need to find some fittings that will make it work but it has the block and the proportioning valve all inclusive. It isn't too far off from the original and it was $100. I can apparently sell my current pieces for 100 each??

Anyhow, the new piece should be arriving this weekend. Wish me luck..... again....

Stupid brakes - sheesh - Wish everyone would just move out of my way so I wouldn't need them... :biggrin:

Have you tried a part that fits other cars, like a Mustang, Torino, Maverick, Montego, Fairlane or Comet? I used to do that in a pinch and it usually was the exact part.

Bob

Have you seen this yet?

http://www.cougarpartscatalog.com/adjpropvlv.html

Thanks Bob. Yes, I have seen the West Coast Cougar Classics. On a first name basis with Don, the owner - ahahaha... We ended up ordering a part that is not a match but he told us it would work as long as we got some adapters. Well, the part came in today and after visiting 5 different auto stores, no luck. This system is cursed. Every roadblock we hit, we go around it only to find another one.

On a good side note - I have to say, there is one NAPA in our area that has some top notch people. Wayne (one of the employees), after being baffled that we he could not find the right adapters, helped us get the valve out of the old one. We are gonig to just rebuild it and try reusing it. I hope... I mean I REALLY hope this works.

Thanks!

Did it work? Just curious to see if you slayed the master cylinder dragon.

From my experience with old cars, the more you digress from stock or repro parts, the more trouble you're going to be having.

Bob

Did it work? Just curious to see if you slayed the master cylinder dragon.

From my experience with old cars, the more you digress from stock or repro parts, the more trouble you're going to be having.

Bob

Well Bob, unfortunately the system is STILL FUBAR. We keep scratching our heads. The distribution block (the original, we didn't end up using the other one) and the valve seem to be working fine. The brake light is off and the valve seemed to slide back and forth easily. Unfortunately the front system still seems to be off. A new proportioning valve is on its way (one that is adjustable). That will be the only thing on the system that is not repro or original/rebuilt.

Here is what is next on the plan: We are going to try gravity bleeding the calipers and also installing the new proportioning valve. If those two things do not work, then it is back to square one. We will then remove (AGAIN!) the master cylinder and inspect it carefully. Someone suggested that we may have pushed the valve in too far when bench bleeding and it may be stuck. That would make some sense because it is a two valve system and if the front one were stuck... the front brakes would not work right.

Of course, I am just avoiding this because in order to get the master cylinder off, I have to take off (or at least loosen) the booster. And that job is like sticking a fork in my eye.... it is miserable. But... we do what we gotta do for our hobbies right? :tongue:

I feel your pain. Gravity bleeding is ok, but only gets you so far. One key question, are the front caliper brake bleeders facing upward? I'd hate to see them on the wrong side, not sure if it is possible on the Cougar though, I had to mention it.

And it IS a disc brake master, the front brake reservoir is noticeably bigger. Do you have new brake hoses installed?

I bench bleed my masters by hand, I don't think you have enough power in your hand to damage the internal cups. I've seen old masters damaged by in-the-car bleeding. Helpers who don't know any better tend to stomp or push the pedal too far. I tend to doubt that your master has been damaged.

Once you have it out (AGAIN!), give it a bench bleeding just for old time's sake. If both ports produce pressure, the master should be fine. I bleed mine this way: I clamp the master in a bench vise. Fill it up with brake fluid. With the cover off, hold two fingers over the brake line ports, push the rod (or use a screw driver) in and out. You will see bubbles come up to the surface from the bottom of the reservoirs. Keep doing the in-out thing until you see the bubbles stop. Your master is bled. Fill it up, put the cap on and avoid pushing the rod until you install it.

Is the brake pedal rod adjustable, or do you just have the one that pokes out of the vacuum booster?

Ok, install the master, tighten up the lines. If you want to, you can do the gravity bleed thing, which won't get you very far from my experience with it.

From scratch, bleed the whole works, start with the right rear, go to the left rear. Whoever is the pedal-person, have them push it far enough to get a steady stream, but not go to the stop with the pedal.

Crack the bleeder about a 1/4 turn (got a bleeder wrench?), tell the pedal-person "down" , they will push the pedal down, then say "down". You close the bleeder, tell them "up" they release the pedal and say "up" back to you. This lets everyone know what to do. If for any reason you drop the wrench and the bleeder is open, tell them to "stay down". There is a professional short cut that I won't share with you right now, stick to the basics.

After each wheel, top off the master, you can lay the cover on loose. 3 or 4 shots per rear should take care of it.

Now go to the right front, the drill is the same, you might want to crack it even less than a 1/4 turn. Tell the pedal person not to bottom it out again. Within 3-4 pushes, the fluid should be almost clear with no air. Fill the master, move to the left front, do the same thing. Fill the master.

The pedal should be pretty good by now. The pedal person can manually push the front pads out if the system has no air. Top off the fluid, clamp down the cover, push the pads out under power.

If you want, go around the whole car and give each corner one shot at each bleeder. I used to do this all the time. You should crack each bleeder less than a 1/4 turn, the pedal-person has to be informed to go easy on the pedal.

If all is well, you should have brakes that work. I'm not sold on the adjustable proportioning valve idea, I think that it is a crutch for the bigger problem that you've been dealing with, you're just not sure what it is yet. I've only used them on stock cars and never on a street car.

Good luck, hope this helps.

Bob

if you run into a fitting problem with the hydraulic lines you can always go to a good radiator shop and they can custom build you a hose with fittings or add length or different fittings to make your application work if they are steel lines you could buy most things from autozone but if they dont have the line a steel braided line wouldnt hurt the only problem with that is the flexibility but dont have to worry about pinching the steel line

I feel your pain. Gravity bleeding is ok, but only gets you so far. One key question, are the front caliper brake bleeders facing upward? I'd hate to see them on the wrong side, not sure if it is possible on the Cougar though, I had to mention it.

No problem in mentioning any ideas. I think it is possible with the cougar to put them on the wrong sides but I am almost certain they are on the right sides. The bleeders are located toward the top of the calipers with the bleeders facing the back of the car.

And it IS a disc brake master, the front brake reservoir is noticeably bigger. Do you have new brake hoses installed?

Yes, it is a front disc, rear drum master cylinder, the front reservoir is definitely bigger (longer) than the rear. All the lines and the hoses are new, only things that are not new on the system are the proportioning valve and the distribution block. Even the booster is a rebuilt/restored one.

I bench bleed my masters by hand, I don't think you have enough power in your hand to damage the internal cups. I've seen old masters damaged by in-the-car bleeding. Helpers who don't know any better tend to stomp or push the pedal too far. I tend to doubt that your master has been damaged.

I hope you are right. Still good to check it. Since it has a two part valve, I am thinking there may be something wrong with the front part, perhaps the spring, or perhaps it was put together wrong at the factory... who knows. But regardless, I will definitely be taking it apart if I take it off, just to make sure.

Once you have it out (AGAIN!), give it a bench bleeding just for old time's sake. If both ports produce pressure, the master should be fine. I bleed mine this way: I clamp the master in a bench vise. Fill it up with brake fluid. With the cover off, hold two fingers over the brake line ports, push the rod (or use a screw driver) in and out. You will see bubbles come up to the surface from the bottom of the reservoirs. Keep doing the in-out thing until you see the bubbles stop. Your master is bled. Fill it up, put the cap on and avoid pushing the rod until you install it.

Great plan. I will definitely do that. I have plugs though, should I just use those instead of plugging the ports with my fingers?


Is the brake pedal rod adjustable, or do you just have the one that pokes out of the vacuum booster?

That is one other school of thought. The cougar has an adjustable rod that goes from the booster to the MC. I failed to measure it, :shakehead and I am not certain it is the right measurement :banghead:. It is only a small screw at the end and from what I was reading in the manual it is a bit confusing to judge just where the measurement needs to be. I'll have to look at it closer, and see if I can figure out how to measure it. I don't know if this would cause the severe problems we are having though. I was under the impression that if this was not adjusted properly it only caused minor problems.


Ok, install the master, tighten up the lines. If you want to, you can do the gravity bleed thing, which won't get you very far from my experience with it.

From scratch, bleed the whole works, start with the right rear, go to the left rear. Whoever is the pedal-person, have them push it far enough to get a steady stream, but not go to the stop with the pedal.

Crack the bleeder about a 1/4 turn (got a bleeder wrench?), tell the pedal-person "down" , they will push the pedal down, then say "down". You close the bleeder, tell them "up" they release the pedal and say "up" back to you. This lets everyone know what to do. If for any reason you drop the wrench and the bleeder is open, tell them to "stay down". There is a professional short cut that I won't share with you right now, stick to the basics.


Hahaha - now you have me curious. :grinyes:


After each wheel, top off the master, you can lay the cover on loose. 3 or 4 shots per rear should take care of it.

Now go to the right front, the drill is the same, you might want to crack it even less than a 1/4 turn. Tell the pedal person not to bottom it out again. Within 3-4 pushes, the fluid should be almost clear with no air. Fill the master, move to the left front, do the same thing. Fill the master.

The pedal should be pretty good by now. The pedal person can manually push the front pads out if the system has no air. Top off the fluid, clamp down the cover, push the pads out under power.

If you want, go around the whole car and give each corner one shot at each bleeder. I used to do this all the time. You should crack each bleeder less than a 1/4 turn, the pedal-person has to be informed to go easy on the pedal.

If all is well, you should have brakes that work. I'm not sold on the adjustable proportioning valve idea, I think that it is a crutch for the bigger problem that you've been dealing with, you're just not sure what it is yet. I've only used them on stock cars and never on a street car.

Good luck, hope this helps.

Bob
Thanks a ton Bob. A lot of the bleeding procedure we already had down, since we have done it to SOOOO many of our cars previously. We have been doing our own brake work for over 20 years now. :wink: But every bit of information helps. And I did learn some new ideas and ways to do it. Your post was fantastic and extremely easy to read. It should be made a sticky!!

Every part is new, so now we are so stuck as to where to turn. That is why I think we need to start from scratch with the MC and go the rounds, one more time. My biggest disappointment is that the snow is coming, and I really really really wanted to be able to cruise in my vert before it did. I think that dream may not be in the realm of reality for this summer. *sigh*. But, this car and these brakes WILL NOT WIN. :headshake

I know, how about I buy you a plane ticket, a 12 pack of Pabst (or other favorite beer) and you come out here to help! :grinyes:

I'm glad your calipers are on straight. I've seen people try to bleed brakes with the bleeders on the BOTTOM of the calipers.

I really don't recommend taking apart a master cylinder unless you have new cups on hand, you'd need the instructions that do come with a rebuild kit. if everything else fails, it is an option.

If you do have those plastic cups that come with the master, use them. I worked with a guy that made up a set from fittings and brake line which he crimped and brazed up. The cups should seal, if you keep getting bubbles coming up, then you know they're not sealing 100%. It could be a 2-person job without the cups. I'm so used to doing it from doing it for a living!

The adjustable rod could be very well the root of your problems! I ran into one when I was first in the brake business on a '66 Chevy, the brakes wouldn't release once they were applied, luckily I worked with an old timer that knew IMMEDIATELY what happened. There has to be a certain amount of free-play. Once the fluid is cycled a few times it heats up and expands just enough to jam up the system. Too much free-play might be your problem, work on getting the right info on measuring. If you need me to look at an old Chiltons, send me a PM. I'd say that the tolerance is something like +/- 1/16", which you can measure with a good scale. I'm not sure if the front brakes apply first, which might be the case on the disc brake master.

The trick I mentioned is an easy one. When you bleed brakes, open the bleeder only once. When the pedal-person does the "up" thing, just hold one finger over the opening. On the "down" stroke, remove the finger. It saves a lot of open-close operations and wrench dropping.

I'm glad to help and have a lot of Ford experience between my past fleet of Mustamge, Fairlanes, Cougars and Falcons.

I believe that you have a "stupid" problem on your hands. Not that anyone is stupid, but there is just one confounding thing that you have to find by ruling out all the other possibilities. You'll beat it yet, and maybe the snow!

I'd like to come out, but am busy with work and home projects of my own. No car fun for me. The 12 pack of Pabst is however enticing.

Bob

Thanks again Bob, I just might PM you but I have a copy of the complete factory manual, it is just a little confusing how they say to measure the depth. I'll see if I can get it, if not I may be sending you a scan of the page to see if you or someone else can help!

Here is a quick update.

Got the new adjustable proportioning valve, got the adapters to make it all work and put it in this weekend. Have bled the system with the “open, press pedal, close, release pedal” to the tune of three small bottles at all four bleeders. Still no change in pedal feel. Haven’t actually put it down and taken it for a drive, but I’m almost certain it will do no good. I know how the pedal should feel and this one is definitely soft for the first half and solid for the last.

Sooooo… - since the brake lights are now off after rebuilding the proportioning valve/distribution block, and there are no visible leaks, this leads me to believe the problem is between pedal and master cylinder. I am going to be removing the master again, re-bleeding it, and double checking the push rod length just to be sure. Then, if I get it back together and it still doesn’t work?

I think I have a noose somewhere…. And a chair…

Kidding…….Just kidding!!!!!!


Dumb question though, just to reiterate my knowledge – the brake booster. If I am not mistaken, this only creates strong power to the pedal (pushing strength so to speak using vacuum) and does not really affect the braking. Is this a correct assessment or should I look into this being an issue as well? The brakes are soft with the car off. However with the car on and the booster in operation, it is hard to judge pedal pressure and when I drive it there is no question the booster is operating at max.

Double post *durrr*

I hate the lag on this board sometimes :)

Since the pedal is soft, I would think about moving the rod out somewhat. Go like 1/8" at a time until you start getting some reaction. Try applying the brake now and see if someone can turn a front or rear wheel against the action.

You should still get a good firm pedal without the power assist. I think that you can factor the booster out as a problem.

The only thing I can think of right now that you have a missed leak somewhere, so check all the lines and hoses. Rinse off any residual brake fluid with a hose first and let it dry. Aside from that, go with the rod adjustment and monitor the progress, if any. If you still are getting nowhere, you might have a bad master cylinder that is bypassing internally.

Bob

Since the pedal is soft, I would think about moving the rod out somewhat. Go like 1/8" at a time until you start getting some reaction. Try applying the brake now and see if someone can turn a front or rear wheel against the action.

You should still get a good firm pedal without the power assist. I think that you can factor the booster out as a problem.

The only thing I can think of right now that you have a missed leak somewhere, so check all the lines and hoses. Rinse off any residual brake fluid with a hose first and let it dry. Aside from that, go with the rod adjustment and monitor the progress, if any. If you still are getting nowhere, you might have a bad master cylinder that is bypassing internally.

Bob

I think I may have found a leak.

Is it possible to have a bad flare on the tube? The fitting going to the proportioning valve seems to be leaking. It seems as though the flare is not seating correctly on the inverted flare of the prop valve. I took off the line, inspected it, looked for any cracks - it looked just fine so I put it back on, tightened it down very snug and... still leaks rather bad when I step on the brake.

I am thinking perhaps I need a whole new line? It is a rather short one. I was told that I can just get a kit that has the flare tool etc. and make my own line. Good idea or no?

Thanks

I knew it! A confounding problem has been found!

I have such crappy luck flaring brake lines that I buy pre-made sections and just bolt them on. Brake lines are a double flare and hard to do, at least for me. You could pay someone to make you up one, shouldn't cost that much considering all you've been through.

How long is the line? Most better parts stores have an assortment of brake lines ready to install. They come in 10" increments, have the fittings on already. I'm not sure what they start at in lengths either.

Bob

I knew it! A confounding problem has been found!

I have such crappy luck flaring brake lines that I buy pre-made sections and just bolt them on. Brake lines are a double flare and hard to do, at least for me. You could pay someone to make you up one, shouldn't cost that much considering all you've been through.

How long is the line? Most better parts stores have an assortment of brake lines ready to install. They come in 10" increments, have the fittings on already. I'm not sure what they start at in lengths either.

Bob
Great advice! I used to buy pre-made brake lines in various lengths. I found the lengths used on older cars by the factory often are identical to the lengths available at an auto parts store.

BTW the 'secret' to flaring your own brake lines is to use a plumber's pipe cutter (the wheel type) to cut the line........ and then file off the last 1/16 of an inch off the end you have just cut.
The cutter wheel will 'work-harden' the metal of the brake line at the end, making it nearly impossible to flare without cracking. This hardened metal can only be removed by hand- filing it off. Anything else results in too-rough a cut.

I knew it! A confounding problem has been found!

I have such crappy luck flaring brake lines that I buy pre-made sections and just bolt them on. Brake lines are a double flare and hard to do, at least for me. You could pay someone to make you up one, shouldn't cost that much considering all you've been through.

How long is the line? Most better parts stores have an assortment of brake lines ready to install. They come in 10" increments, have the fittings on already. I'm not sure what they start at in lengths either.

Bob

Ok. I'll check around and see. The length is probably only about 12" when it is straight. It is the line that goes from the distribution block to the proportioning valve - just a shortie. The flare sure looks ok but regardless it is leaking. What kills me is all this time we have been going to NAPA and or a place called Page brake and no one has mentioned a new line - they just keep trying different adaptor fittings. :banghead: I have a local muscle car forum here and someone on there has offered to come take a peek. He has a flare tool of his own so perhaps together we can get it done.

I'll keep ya updated.

Thanks again Bob

:(Great advice! I used to buy pre-made brake lines in various lengths. I found the lengths used on older cars by the factory often are identical to the lengths available at an auto parts store.

BTW the 'secret' to flaring your own brake lines is to use a plumber's pipe cutter (the wheel type) to cut the line........ and then file off the last 1/16 of an inch off the end you have just cut.
The cutter wheel will 'work-harden' the metal of the brake line at the end, making it nearly impossible to flare without cracking. This hardened metal can only be removed by hand- filing it off. Anything else results in too-rough a cut.
I'll give NAPA a call here and ask.

I am certainly not going to try to flare my own without watching someone who has done it before. I'm bound to mess it up, especially if it has anything to do with the cougar! :p

Thanks MagicRat.

BTW - forecast is for snow this weekend. I didn't make it :(

Where is your sense of adventure???
Of course you can make your own flares. Here is a video that shows you how.:

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/95188_replace-steel-brakes-custom.htm
BTW my sound card is down, so I could not actually hear the video. But the guy seems to be waving brake lines around in a convincing manner.

Also look at these, for more info.
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0701_stainless_steel_tubing/photo_05.html
http://www.ehow.com/how_2320217_make-custom-brake-line.html
http://www.stu-offroad.com/suspension/flaretool/ft-1.htm

Where is your sense of adventure???
Of course you can make your own flares. Here is a video that shows you how.:

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/95188_replace-steel-brakes-custom.htm
BTW my sound card is down, so I could not actually hear the video. But the guy seems to be waving brake lines around in a convincing manner.

Also look at these, for more info.
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0701_stainless_steel_tubing/photo_05.html
http://www.ehow.com/how_2320217_make-custom-brake-line.html
http://www.stu-offroad.com/suspension/flaretool/ft-1.htm

Sense of adventure??? :grinyes: perhaps I should really try out my sense of adventure and just drive the thing with the brakes the way they are... :lol:

Thanks for the video - I'll have to actually LISTEN to it and see if it actually is someone talking about brakes or just using brake lines for a new art project.


Seriously, thanks of the links. I should be doing some of that myself but I am swamped lately and have limited internet time. The time I do have my hands are too greasy to use the computer! :tongue:

(yeah, I like smileys, can ya tell?)

Where is your sense of adventure???
Of course you can make your own flares. Here is a video that shows you how.:

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/95188_replace-steel-brakes-custom.htm
BTW my sound card is down, so I could not actually hear the video. But the guy seems to be waving brake lines around in a convincing manner.

Also look at these, for more info.
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0701_stainless_steel_tubing/photo_05.html
http://www.ehow.com/how_2320217_make-custom-brake-line.html
http://www.stu-offroad.com/suspension/flaretool/ft-1.htm

By the way, the stu-offroad link was not only greatly informative, but also pretty funny!

After 5 different stops I was finally able to get a brake line the right size. First stop was our local Page brake... the didn't have a brake line. So, off to Napa - they had a brake line but not the right fittings on it to fit.. so, off to another parts store - they had two different brake lines, one too large, and one the right diameter but not the right lenght. So, we sent back to Napa and picked up the right length and diameter line, then went back to Page brake and picked up a fitting that would piggy-back the original fitting to get them to work. So, got it all together and it appears as though.....


drum roll please....


NO LEAK!!

So, we rebled the system....AGAIN. I'm still a little worried however, because the pedal still doesn't feel like I think it should. We have the car of the stands and on her wheels but havent been able to drive it yet because of a dead battery. I'll let you know in the next few days what happens. I have my fingers, toes, and eyes crossed! hahaha

No leaks, you guys know how to party! I prefer to buy pre-made brake lines rather than make them. But you have to hit a place that has what you need.

If the pedal is still not that high, look to do an adjustment on the rear brake shoes. This is what gives you a higher pedal, which should get better once the shoes break in.

You can do it with the wheels on the car if you want to, but jack it up first. Just a couple of clicks at a time until you feel a slight drag. Make sure the drag is slight, as the drums are much more easily turned with the wheels on and the tendency is to over adjust them.

Bob

Allllright guys and gals, I'm back with bad news. Yeah, it is still not working.

Here is the progress. After fixing the leak at the prop valve, the road test turned out bad. Still about the same issues. So, from there we went and got brass plugs to plug off the MC to give us some diagnostic as to if it might just be a bad MC. Well, the pedal was very stiff with the mc blocked off but there was a lot of top pedal play first. Soooooo

From there I bit the bullet and took the booster and MC back out and looked carefully at the push rod adjustment. It was a little short so we adjusted the push rod out. Put it all back together and the pedal definitely feels better but there is still something wrong.

We completely turned off the back brakes with the new adjustable prop valve and went strictly with the fronts. They aren't giving adequate stop. The can stop the car, barely, so that indicates they are getting some movement, but obviously are not getting grab or enough force.

Any ideas from here? It is both front brakes - which I find rather odd. I inspected the line from the MC to the distribution block for leaks and there doesn't appaer to be any.

I didn't know satan was in the brake business... :lol:

I would (cringing..) take the master & power booster apart again (you are a pro at it by now) and adjust the rod out another 1/8" and see what happens.

You made good progress with the last adjustment, so I thing all you need is a little more to get full travel within the master. Make the adjustments gradually until it stops well enough to make you happy. 1/8" increments are safe and sane.

If you go too far, the brakes won't release once it is fully warmed up. But that will be a matter of backing off the rod a little.

Bob

I would (cringing..) take the master & power booster apart again (you are a pro at it by now) and adjust the rod out another 1/8" and see what happens.

You made good progress with the last adjustment, so I thing all you need is a little more to get full travel within the master. Make the adjustments gradually until it stops well enough to make you happy. 1/8" increments are safe and sane.

If you go too far, the brakes won't release once it is fully warmed up. But that will be a matter of backing off the rod a little.

Bob'


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Bob! Say it ain't so! Yes, I am getting to be a pro - took me less than 30 minutes to get it out last time :grinyes: but still *can you hear the whine????* Yeah, my husband would have cringed to tell me that as well.

Ok, I'll try your advice and give it one more shot. So, if the push rod is not at its proper length, that would cause the fronts not to have enought pressure? Just want to double check before I do this... for what feels like the eleventymillionth time. :wink:

Oh yes, you have to do it. I believe that's your problem, if the rod isn't out far enough, you don't get the full travel within the master.

Can you accurately measure where you're at now with it? If I knew the thread size, I could tell you how many turns it would take to get you an 1/8" of travel. A good scale or better yet a caliper (not brake related) would work.

If it were my car, I'd go the 1/8" and slap it back together and see how it stopped, which should be on a dime. You're close so keep on keepin' on.

Bob

Well, guess what.

I am currently tieing the last loop on the noose that I plan to hang over the rafters in the garage. - just kidding... but I'm definitely frustrated.

The adjustment of the push rod did not change the status of the brakes. It changed the feel of the pedal when the car was off, but did not help the front brakes work any better.

I stayed up until 2am this morning going through the trouble of taking apart, cleaning/rebuilding the old/original master cylinder to put it in - just to see what it accomplished. Annnnnnndd nada - exactly the same with the old mc as it was with the new mc. And yes, I did a thorough bench bleed.

Here is what I have that keeps stumping me. The back brakes are good (if not too good) one side will lock up easily, but the fronts have very very weak power. There is some braking going on, but it is not enough to safely stop the car. When bleeding the front calipers, I get very good fluid movement. I can fill the bleeder container up in about 4 pushes of the pedal.

Is it possible that we got 2 bad calilpers? They were from the same place at the same time....

What about the brake booster? What are the signs of a bad one?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Maybe I should just sell this one and go with the beautiful 68 Torino for sale here....:evillol:

Here is what I have that keeps stumping me. The back brakes are good (if not too good) one side will lock up easily, but the fronts have very very weak power. There is some braking going on, but it is not enough to safely stop the car. When bleeding the front calipers, I get very good fluid movement. I can fill the bleeder container up in about 4 pushes of the pedal.

Is it possible that we got 2 bad calilpers? They were from the same place at the same time....

Calipers go bad when they do not retract or they leak. Usually, a firm application is not a problem if the pressure is there.

Okay, remind me a bit, you have a disc brake master cylinder, where you have one large chamber hooked up to the calipers and one smaller one going to the drums on the rear, right?

You have an adjustable proportioning valve, right?

I assume you have tried adjusting the valve for maximum pressure to the front, right?

Okay, is the valve hooked up properly, so the inlets and outlets are not reversed?

Are you sure the front brake lines are good? A tiny kink in the line or a squashed section can produce this problem. If you are not sure, try reversing the outlets on the valve, so the rear brake outlet is not pushing on the fronts, etc and see if you still have the same problem. If yes, then there may be some kind of obstruction on your front line.

I agree that the calipers are good if they produce a steady stream when bled. A bad power booster would give you a rock hard pedal. If you want to disable it, unplug the hose from the engine, plug the open line on the manifold and try it. You should do this since it takes a few minutes and you need to understand how it works.

Maybe you need more adjustment on the rod until it does something. How much free play is there at the pedal?

Go over the things that Magic Rat suggests, although I doubt you have a brake line or hose issue since the calipers are getting lots of fluid. Unless you have a piece of crud that is in the line right off the master that feeds the fronts. This can be taken off and blown out with compressed air. Or just blow it out the old fashioned way (ptooey.. don't inhale), that way you'll be able to feel anything clogging it up.

I'm not a big advocate on adjustable proportioning valves for street use, which is either a crutch or monkey wrench in your case.

Now we go full circle to your original problem, maybe you have an incompatible master cylinder?

Bob

Thanks MagicRat and Bob,

Here is what I’ve been thinking today

MagicRat - Hmmm… so on the calipers – you say the calipers only have issues with retraction or leaking, but could I be maxing them out before they stop the car? If they are incorrect would it be possible that they have a caliper travel that isn’t enough…. Sorry – I know I seem to be grasping at straws but I’m just trying all avenues. I’m thinking about taking them off and pushing the pedal to see how much travel they have. Would this damage them?

Yes, I do have the disc front and drum rear master cylinder. I should take pictures of everything, just in case you guys with the sharp eyes can catch something I am missing. I will do this tonight and post up the pics of how everything looks, maybe that will help. It has the smaller reservoir for the rear (this is the second reservoir from the firewall) and a larger reservoir for the front brakes (the first reservoir toward the firewall, the first reservoir that the push rod hits basically). It matches the OEM exactly. In fact, what I did last night was I stayed up till 2am cleaning out the old MC really well, putting it back together and trying it out… just for giggles. No luck. Still the exact same pedal feel with the original MC that I get with the new MC - no firm grab on the front.

Yes, I have an adjustable proportioning valve, mostly got it as a diagnostic tool and to make sure our original wasn’t the problem. I have turned it so that the back brakes are completely off. This is how I am sure that the front brakes are the issue. When the rear brakes are turned on they get plenty of grab, when the backs are turned off, the fronts can barely hold the car in place. This also indicates that I do have it connected correctly to the rear brake lines (it is inline on the main rear tube).

I am not completely certain the front brake lines are good but I would say IMO they are fine. I get great fluid flow to the calipers and I can’t visually see any kinks or leaks. The front pads just aren’t giving good grab.

I’ve been thinking all day…. Could there be trapped air in the distribution block? Somewhere that would affect only the front lines? If I plug the main ports on the mc, the pedal gets very stiff. But the minute I attach the distribution block, spongy again. The pedal gets relatively stiff after bleeding but returns to spongy once the car is started and I get very little grab on the front. If there was an air trap issue, it seems like this would be how it would react, I would still get good fluid flow, but terrible pressure. If there is the possibility of a trapped air bubble in the distribution block, how would you guys suggest I get it out? Should I try attaching the vacuum bleeder directly to the dist block and “bleeding” it from there??? Sounds kinda crazy but at the same time… plausible.

To answer your question Bob – the pedal gets very stiff with the MC plugged, but there is still just a little bit of “free play” at the top of the pedal. It will travel maybe ¼” freely and then kind of “clunk” when I hit the resistance. I am pretty sure this free play is the push rod freely sliding and the clunk is when it hits the MC valve. However, there is still a ton of resistance travel to the floor, and again, I am moving fluid very easily and freely through the front calipers when I bleed them.

I am going to take off the old MC and put the new one back on again (the new one is so much prettier J), I will adjust the push rod out just a little more again just to be sure. Hey, I can now do this in about 30 minutes – HA!

Oh, and just an FYI - I don’t really care for the adjustable valve much either but it is a pretty valuable diagnostic tool at the moment. I plan on putting in the old one if/when I finally get this dang gremlin the hell out of my brakes!

This is a now a novel – page 4 now? – I think you guys should get a paycheck for this one, or at least a medal!

Thanks SOOOOOOO much!

Well, caliper travel is usually not an issue. The caliper pistons do 'retract' from the rotor, but only a miniscule amount, so small it can hardly be seen.
The total piston travel is less than 1/32 of an inch or so when you press on the brake.

The brake pads actually maintain full contact with the rotor, (they rub against the rotor) even with the pedal released. But they have no pressure so the wheels turn easily.

IMO do not apply the brakes with he calipers removed. The pistons will fly out of their bores and are a real pain to put back in.

The front line may still be blocked internally with rust, but may still look good. Also the flexible brake hoses can collapse internally, causing a blockage, but still look good.

Have you replaced the front pads and rotors? If no, have you removed and inspected them to make sure they are not covered in oil/grease/brake fluid?

As for air in the lines.....if air were the culprit, you can temporarily overcome the air's spongy effect by stomping really hard on the brake pedal many times over and over again as quickly as possible. This will compress the air and give you a firm pedal, but it will go back to being soft for the next application. If much stomping makes no difference, air is not likely the culprit.

I still think you have rod length issues and the front brakes are not being fully applied. Your hydraulics are fine from what you are telling me. I think that this is down to a mechanical problem.

Bob

Well, caliper travel is usually not an issue. The caliper pistons do 'retract' from the rotor, but only a miniscule amount, so small it can hardly be seen.
The total piston travel is less than 1/32 of an inch or so when you press on the brake.

The brake pads actually maintain full contact with the rotor, (they rub against the rotor) even with the pedal released. But they have no pressure so the wheels turn easily.

IMO do not apply the brakes with he calipers removed. The pistons will fly out of their bores and are a real pain to put back in.
Ummm yeah, I thought of the piston flying across the garage as well. I agree - not a bright idea:wink:

The front line may still be blocked internally with rust, but may still look good. Also the flexible brake hoses can collapse internally, causing a blockage, but still look good.

Have you replaced the front pads and rotors? If no, have you removed and inspected them to make sure they are not covered in oil/grease/brake fluid?
With every line and part being new, I cant imagine they have any rust blockage. I also don't think there is any collapse because the only rubber liens are the ones going from the calipers to the SS lines in the wheel well.

We have brand new pads and we had the rotors turned. I have double checked for any fluid on the rotors, none that I can see. I have cleaned it again, just in case.

As for air in the lines.....if air were the culprit, you can temporarily overcome the air's spongy effect by stomping really hard on the brake pedal many times over and over again as quickly as possible. This will compress the air and give you a firm pedal, but it will go back to being soft for the next application. If much stomping makes no difference, air is not likely the culprit.
Hmmm. I may have to give that a try and see what it does.

Thanks!

I still think you have rod length issues and the front brakes are not being fully applied. Your hydraulics are fine from what you are telling me. I think that this is down to a mechanical problem.

Bob

Ok bob. I'll go with your advice, you have been pretty on the mark so far. I plan on trading out the old MC for the new again anyway, so I will lengthen it yet more. I'm a little concerned about the "seizing" thing when they warm up... but I suppose we can cross that bridge if and when we come to it eh?

I'll let you all know. And I am going right now to take pics.

Thanks again.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I believe that you have got to force something to happen, even if you have to ultimately back it off a little bit. That's why you have to document what you're doing so you can UN DO it if you have to.

If your front brakes lock up from the rod being out too far, all you have to do is crack the bleeder on a caliper or master (if there is one) and they'll release.

Bob

Ok. Just a quick update. I tried what MagicRat suggested and pumped the brake hard in quick succession. No change. Never seemed to become stiff.

So, I removed the old MC, adjusted the push rod out an additional 1/4" or so.. (the visible threads now measure out just over 1"), put the new MC back on, re-attached all the lines, and I jacked her up in the front as high as I could go (sounds weird but if there is air, I am hoping this will cause it to congregate to one area and be easier to evacuate, just a sillyness perhaps, but figured it couldn't hurt). It is now sitting and waiting for me to bleed the system. I didn't do it last night because while working with the old MC I managed to break the check valve going to the booster... It basically just shattered :(. So, I am planning on getting a new one today, installing the check valve, and bleeding the crap out of them once again.

I will let ya'all know, hopefully tonight or tomorrow, what happens.

BTW - I did take pictures, but I figured they weren't worth posting because it is so hard to orient what lines are coming and going from where.

Oh and Bob - thanks for the info about cracking the bleeder - easy enough fix if they do happen to seize.

Stop thinking that you have air in the system! You could if you have a remaining yet to be detected leak, but since you're getting solid brake fluid out of the calipers, you don't have any air in the lines. Those Fords were very user friendly for bleeding and I have rebuilt hundreds of those calipers and have never ever had a air entrapment issue with one.

I think you're on the right track with bring the rod out gradually. I'm just curious what got you to this point in the first place. Any Ford (or any other brand of car) that I've replaced a master and or power booster on has been totally "plug and play". I've had to do some fine tuning to get free play at master cylinders once in a while, but that resulted in a bound up system, the opposite of what you have there.

Bob

Stop thinking that you have air in the system! You could if you have a remaining yet to be detected leak, but since you're getting solid brake fluid out of the calipers, you don't have any air in the lines. Those Fords were very user friendly for bleeding and I have rebuilt hundreds of those calipers and have never ever had a air entrapment issue with one.

I think you're on the right track with bring the rod out gradually. I'm just curious what got you to this point in the first place. Any Ford (or any other brand of car) that I've replaced a master and or power booster on has been totally "plug and play". I've had to do some fine tuning to get free play at master cylinders once in a while, but that resulted in a bound up system, the opposite of what you have there.

Bob

Thanks Bob, I actually don’t think it is air that is causing the problem. I am just bleeding the brakes this much now because I keep introducing air into it every time I remove the MC. I can’t get the push rod out unless I undo the lines, hence allowing air, so I just bleed the system each time.

The push rod is maxed out. It cannot go any further.

Here is what I observed last night. The pedal is stiff. It has very little play (there is no longer any top pedal play, like there was before the rod adjustments). When I apply the brakes with the back brakes turned off it literally feels like the power assist is just not working, stiff pedal and all. If you stand on the pedal with a lot of force, you can get the fronts to grab. It is the oddest thing. If I turn the back brakes on, the right rear will lock before any of the others and the car tries to stop with only that one brake.

I know what you mean about being curious what got us to this point. We have ALWAYS done our own brake systems, and never EVER have we had this kind of difficulty. I think one of the things we are fighting here is that we replaced an entire system rather than just a part at a time. It could have started as several issues and we are just narrowing it down.

I go back to the possibility of the booster being a culprit, but it doesn’t figure right – if the booster were loosing vacuum: A – it would effect the entire system, not just the front calipers; B – there should be some external hissing or indication of vacuum loss; C – It held enough vacuum to hold tightly onto the push rod after sitting for a good 2 hours, and it made one heck of a ‘woosh’ of air when I removed the check valve to release the pressure.

Soooooo…. Another school of thought is the distribution block, but again, it doesn’t figure right – if it were not working correctly A – the brake light “switch” probably wouldn’t be functioning properly; B – I get plenty of fluid flow to each caliper.

The boggling thing is the back drums are working well. They will lock up before I get the fronts to fully engage (if I have the back brakes turned on). I have one that grabs (the right rear) before any others but I am pretty sure that is either a tiny bit of contamination or it just needs some more fine tuning adjustment.

I sound like a broken record and I am sure this is getting tiring for others as well as myself. I may just put her away for a while and come back to it. I’m fried at this point. I know it has to be something I am just missing…. But I can’t imagine what that could be at this point. I was pretty sure I had covered all the bases.

Only other thought is that they gave me the wrong calipers….. but I dunno – the sure matched up visually to the old ones and the pads fit exactly.

You must have an incompatible piece of hardware somewhere. The calipers are fine if they match up, they only have one moving part and that year Cougar really had no other option for calipers, so if they fit, they're right.

So, between your power booster, master cylinder and proportioning valve, something is "not exactly". I always had my power boosters and masters rebuilt so I always got "mine" back. I had my '68 Mustang with the Kelsey Hayes disc brake set up done that way.

The bitchy thing about Cougars and other Mercury products is that if you don't get the EXACT match up with parts, you'll have headaches like yours. Often enough, parts were specific for ONE year only and that's it.

Do you still have your old power booster and master? If so, shell out a few $$ and get them rebuilt. If not, try to get some NOS parts that still have the Ford/Mercury part numbers on them. You may even find them aftermarket if you hit upon the right source. Is there a club in your area that might be able to help?

I'm also not sold that you have the correct proportioning valve. This alone would be the basis of your woes.

Bob