battery draining overnight - dead, 3 problems

hi I have a /94 chevy lumina that (more than) occasionally has a dead battery in the morning.

The battery usually charges up (with a charger).

It happens most often when it rains heavily, and can even short out and drain while driving in traffic (in heavy rain) leaving battery dead and car stranded. (once).

The battery was replaced (and also the alternator once).

I suspected an interaction between the battery and the old alternator (possibly blown rectifier in alternator draining first battery).

(New alternator may too be problematic because of hard winter and burned out starter - since replaced).

Got car going in spring with tuneup (plugs and wires) ran good until brakes failed. (replaced most of the brakelines which rusted at the plastic clips everywhere; apparently a bad moisture trap, these stupid holding clips for lines, even gasline is rusting at keypoints).

Then car died with burned out timing belt. (didn't know what was wrong. No gas, injectors not opening, gas pump fine, gas filter changed etc).

Replaced Timing belt and engine purred like new (I will post how to change belt on a 3.4 Litre DOHC engine if anyone is interested.)

Now I notice sometimes dash lights don't go out and obviously this is again draining battery overnight.

Temporary solution is to pull 5 amp fuse in glove compartment for "panel" lights. Obviously this isn't ideal since you need your speedometer at night while driving.

Someone else on Wiki posted a similar problem-answer as follows:



I had the same problem years ago with a Chrysler New Yorker. The "illumination delay relay" needed to be replaced. I did it myself for about $35. Mine was located behind the glove box which was simple to remove. Just unplug the old one and plug in the new one. You can ask someone in the know where yours would be located in your particular vehicle. Good luck. Lori


I obviously suspect the same thing is wrong with my lumina, since the dash lights aren't going out after a couple of seconds, and stay on all night.

So my $64,000 question is,

Where the heck is the "illumination delay relay" for this vehicle?

Help!

Do you have daytime running lites? If not there is no relay like the Chrysler. The dash lites come right off the headlite switch and dash lite dimmer.

Do you have daytime running lites? If not there is no relay like the Chrysler.



I don't think I have daytime running lights. It is possible to turn on or off the headlights, which I think on newer cars are just on all the time (to sell more headlights).

Yet the fact is, the car lights behave distinctively:

In the past, the overhead inside light in the cab would go on when any door was opened, and would go off again when the door was closed.

However, the dash lights had a life of their own:

They could be turned on and off while the key was on and engine running:
- there is a multiple position sliding switch on the left of the steering wheel, that brightens or dims the dash (panel) instrument lights, and which at the top will also even turn on the overhead light.

Yet, when the car is shut off, the key removed, and the door opened, the overhead goes on, then shuts off when the door is closed.

THEN the dashlights go instantly on, and stay on for about 30 seconds or so.

At least that was the behaviour when the system was 'working'.

Now it should be obvious to you that this behaviour could not be accomplished without a 'delay relay' or a delay circuit of some kind.

And this is just what delay relays do (and electronic solid state circuits too, that do the same thing without moving parts.)

Now you may be right that there is no actual relay that was doing the work before, but both the 'working' behaviour and the non-working behaviour indicate a delay circuit of some kind, which has gone south.

Of course I don't really want to quibble about whether it is was an actual 'delay relay', or some kind of transistor/capacitor switching circuit that did the job.

If there is no relay, then fixing this will probably be harder. Because instead of popping out a relay, I will have to find some unknown circuit which could look like anything and be anywhere, then bypass it or replace it.




The dash lites com right off the headlite switch and dash lite dimmer.

I presume you mean the power for the dash lights come of the headlight switch.

At one end or the other of the circuit, the current passes through a fuse in the glove compartment, that I have already discovered, by pulling the 5 amp fuse labeled 'panel'.

At this point, I think I will put the fuse back (so I have dash lights at night), and wire in a switch in series with the fuse, and mount that under the dash by the driver.

Then the driver can manually turn off the dash lights which don't shut off, and still have dash lights at night when they are needed, by turning the new switch on. This seems much simpler and easier than hunting down and analyzing and trying to repair a delay circuit.

I have already discovered that a panel below the glove compartment comes off, and there is yet another small box with four big fuses and 2 relays, (and a third relay even larger and mounted separately), all unmarked (useless idiots).

There was no relay "behind" the glove compartment. I removed that only to find wires and connectors going in various directions.

So unless anyone has a better idea, I'm going to pull the fusebox inside the glove compartment, snip a wire on the 5 amp 'panel' fuse, and insert a switch in series with it, and run the wires over to the driver side.

There has to be a timer someplace. I don't have daytime running lights on my 93 lumina 3.1 but the dashlights are on a timer either part of the dash light dimmer switch or a relay. When I shut off the car at night & the lights when you lock the doors the dash light come on & stay on for about 90 seconds then automatically shut off. So there is some kind of timer/relay someplace. I thought there was a relay in the fuse box under the hood, but may be wrong.

There has to be a timer someplace. I don't have daytime running lights on my 93 lumina 3.1 but the dashlights are on a timer either part of the dash light dimmer switch or a relay. When I shut off the car at night & the lights when you lock the doors the dash light come on & stay on for about 90 seconds then automatically shut off. So there is some kind of timer/relay someplace. I thought there was a relay in the fuse box under the hood, but may be wrong.

Thanks for your agreement about a delay/timer.

On my 94 lumina 3.4L, the fuse on the right (facing the open hood) has the main lights (behind the battery), but damn little is in that fusebox. there is space for 'foglights' but no fuse or wires installed.

On the left, inside the second fusebox overtop the ECM (computer) are the fan relays and the fuel pump relay and a handful of fuses, but no relay for the dash lights that I can see.

So I was thinking that one of the 3 relays under the dashboard inside the cab behind the panel below the glove compartment might be a dashboard light relay.

This is the only (hidden) fusebox that has no markings or explanation.

Does your vehicle have a similar box, perhaps with labels?

Just an update:

I still haven't located the delay-off relay for the dash lights.

For now I leave the 5 amp fuse in the glovebox marked 'panel' out, and at night when I need the dashlights (speedometer etc.) I just plug it in while driving.

I haven't installed a switch yet to slam the dash lights off when I get out of the car. I think the relay must be stuck on.

I did install a switch on the ceiling light.

I suddenly realised that GM left the switch out entirely (the one on the dash doesn't allow you to shut off the light and have a door open! - an incredibly inconvenient bit of cheapness on their part.

The cover for the light actually has special room for a switch that was never put in. Wow. They saved 3 cents and caused me boatloads of aggro.

Now I took a slider switch off my kid's talk-toy and wired it in overhead.

You can now switch the light off so you can leave your doors open to unload, listen to the radio, or cool the car without draining your battery.

Amazing how a such a trivial little switch can create such huge inconveniences.

Now the car also has a 'stealth' mode so I can open a car door at night without alerting people a 1/4 mile away that someone is getting into their car (as if its their business.)

I like this 40 cent mod more than any other single mod I've done to this thing so far.

Just an update:

I still haven't located the delay-off relay for the dash lights.

For now I leave the 5 amp fuse in the glovebox marked 'panel' out, and at night when I need the dashlights (speedometer etc.) I just plug it in while driving.

I haven't installed a switch yet to slam the dash lights off when I get out of the car. I think the relay must be stuck on.

I did install a switch on the ceiling light.

I suddenly realised that GM left the switch out entirely (the one on the dash doesn't allow you to shut off the light and have a door open! - an incredibly inconvenient bit of cheapness on their part.

The cover for the light actually has special room for a switch that was never put in. Wow. They saved 3 cents and caused me boatloads of aggro.

Now I took a slider switch off my kid's talk-toy and wired it in overhead.

You can now switch the light off so you can leave your doors open to unload, listen to the radio, or cool the car without draining your battery.

Amazing how a such a trivial little switch can create such huge inconveniences.

Now the car also has a 'stealth' mode so I can open a car door at night without alerting people a 1/4 mile away that someone is getting into their car (as if its their business.)

I like this 40 cent mod more than any other single mod I've done to this thing so far.



Sorry this might be a little late but i just found your thread are these what you are talking about?

http://www.autozone.com/R,2052537/vehicleId,1979001/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,298/partType,01311/shopping/partProductDetail.htm


http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c152800683b6

Sorry this might be a little late but i just found your thread are these what you are talking about?

http://www.autozone.com/R,2052537/vehicleId,1979001/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,298/partType,01311/shopping/partProductDetail.htm


http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c152800683b6

The first link is good (2nd is just to autozone or something)

Yes. This relay unfortunately looks alot like all the other relays in my Lumina.

How can I identify which one (if I can even locate the right one in a group)?

I may have to just start unplugging.

I wish I knew what ALL the unmarked relays under the dash were.

There seems to be at least 3 or so.

If you are talking about the three relays under the dash on the passenger side, most if not all of those are used for the a/c system and those would not be what you are looking for. as for the rest of your question i am looking right now and will post as soon as i find more info. So you are saying that you want the location of the dash light dimmer relay?

If you are talking about the three relays under the dash on the passenger side, most if not all of those are used for the a/c system and those would not be what you are looking for. as for the rest of your question i am looking right now and will post as soon as i find more info. So you are saying that you want the location of the dash light dimmer relay?

that is interesting info.

I removed my AC since it stopped working years ago.

I should then be able to pull some of those relays, unless they cause the operation of the radiator fans to misbehave, since one of them is controlled by the ECM(PCM?) based on whether or not the A/C is on.

Yes. I would love to know exactly where the dash light dimmer relay is located on my /94 Lumina Eurosport 3.4L DOHC.

It doesn't seem to be in any of the marked fuse-boxes under the hood front (which seem rather empty too).

Im not sure if your year lumina has one or two radiator fans but each fan will have its own relay in the fuse box under the hood, those should not have anything to do with the a/c. i will get back to you as to the location of the instrument cluster dimmer relay. If im thinking of the relays you are talking about they are black or grey and all three are clipped to a metal bracket that is mounted under the glove box?

Im not sure if your year lumina has one or two radiator fans but each fan will have its own relay in the fuse box under the hood, those should not have anything to do with the a/c. i will get back to you as to the location of the instrument cluster dimmer relay. If im thinking of the relays you are talking about they are black or grey and all three are clipped to a metal bracket that is mounted under the glove box?

Yes, (at least the 3.4L v6 DOHC) it has TWO fans, and two relays, on the left in the fusebox overtop of the ECM under the front hood just left of the engine/AC unit etc. (if you are facing the car looking backwards into hood).

One relay (and fan) is apparently under control of the ECM but directed by whether the A/C unit is on or off. This I was previously told in one of these threads.

There is a cluster of 3 or so relays, unmarked, and more under the center than the glove compartment, but I'll have a 2nd look and maybe take a photo.

These seem to be the only ones left that could be the dash cluster, but ...if they are also A/C relays, then I don't know where the dasch cluster delay relay (and circuit) is.

And that is the whole point: Whatever form physically, and however it is spread across the car, there must be a DELAY circuit that keeps the dash lights on for 30 sec. somehow after you pull the key and close the door.

This circuit seems to malfunction, by not shutting off...

which in turn drains the battery (although I have since suspected the battery itself was burned out too from repeated draining and recharging over last winter.

All things worked together last year to incapacitate the car for the last 3 months of winter. New starter, new plugs, new wires, got it started...

New timing belt, new pulley in place of A/C, and new starter and new battery have made it run reasonably.

New brakelines made it safe(r).

emergency muffler repair made it quieter, but...

2 quarts of synthetic oil also helped it run smoother and quieter, as well as oil change, gas filter, fan belt.

New tie rod ends and a grease fixed the steering noise.

Need a sweet deal on new tires, and two new front springs...

Doing all the work myself has saved several thousand dollars, but I had to buy my own tools...

After doing a little more research I dont think there is a relay controlling the lights for the instrument cluster just the switch. But if there is a relay it would be on the driver's side under the dash more towards the top (in the area of the steering column). If you dont find one i would just replace the switch.

After doing a little more research I dont think there is a relay controlling the lights for the instrument cluster just the switch. But if there is a relay it would be on the driver's side under the dash more towards the top (in the area of the steering column). If you dont find one i would just replace the switch.

There has to be a 'delay' circuit of some kind.

A mere switch cannot physically produce a 30 second delay when you exit the vehicle.

Perhaps there is no actual relay as such, except that people have actually named them and replaced them in other forums (not Lumina).

Perhaps on the Lumina there is only some special transistor/capacitor circuit that gradually discharges or something. But that would not explain battery drain either.

In my mind, there must be a relay, simply because they have them in other cars for the same purpose.

I agree with you, but im not finding anything to support the delay relay. As for the battery running dead it sounds like you have some other kind of parastatic draw draining your battery. if i find anything i will post it