2003 Taurus Battery Problems

Last week noticed car wasn't running up to peformance, took it to the dealer, they put it on the machine and diagnose dead battery. Actually felt battery was going dead a few days previous. Didn't have a choice in going to the dealer, could have gotten a battery cheaper elsewhere but I'm in the Chicago area and traffic is a nightmare, I was close to the dealer. Asked the guy, is this the problem because I dont have time to play around with this. He assured me it was. Trying to start the car in dealer parking lot AFTER battery replacement, bsttery light comes on and car barely turns over.
Take it back the next day, they have it all day, they see the problem in the am but cannot get to do it in the afternoon. AGAIN they tell me car is fine, everything is good, starter, alternator, etc. I would tend to think they are being honest. I think they they only tightened up cables because for the next 4 days car started and ran fine. Next 2 days battery light comes on everytime. Starts 6 times out of 7. Now I'm stranded so I jiggle the battery cables around and it starts. 50,000mi and full maintenance checks. I'm frustrated now. Any advice?

See if Barack Obama can help out. :D He's a lawyer, from Chicago and probably would like your vote. :D

Could still be battery cable connections. Maybe they didn't clean clamps and posts as they should have. The battery cable connections to the power distribution box, starter and body and engine grounds should all be checked. If this battery was really a hard drain on your alternator, it could be the culprit.

OR.....

your dealer is treating you lousy, not dealing a professional job from the get go and has been not putting in the time into they should. GMAB!!! If they knew what was wrong with it in the am and put it off till the pm, and all they did was tighten up a few things?!?!? That's rediculuos for them to have held it all day for a 15 minute fix. They may not even be using a REAL mechanic on it. Hey, if Advance Auto and Autozone can get a teenager to drop a battery in and do a battery and alternator test for free, the dealer can make a bundle doing the same. :shakehead

Depending on what's left of your fuse, you could go back to them and demand they get it right. They used their fancy expensive machine on it, probably costing you up to $100, then charge you extra to install the battery and every time you go back!?! It's time they get it right! Whatever more they need to do, they should do as time already paid for minor stuff!!! Any additional testing on their machine should be on them, not you. If there is a certain amount of time you get per charge on their tester, I really, really, really doubt they used it up the first time. They should have caught whatever else was wrong with their machine with the new battery in it!!! Them sending it out the door twice like that is pathetic!!! That calls into question their automotive abilities when they can't even do what a teenager can do!!!

Find out what they did each time to get it to work, and why they thought that was it. Let us know so we can judge what kind of idiots you're dealing with. I'd say you need to find the service dept. manager or dealer top guy to state your case that you've paid and they've had two shots at it and can't deliver.

Where ever you decide to take it, be sure you give them the details on what you had to do to get it to start. Maybe the problem is exactly as tripletdaddy described, they had someone new install the battery. It is possible that in an attempt to get the battery cable connections tight and keep you from having issues, they torqued the battery post too much and broke the connection to the post internal to the battery. I've seen it happen before. Now you have an intermittant connection inside the battery and when you wiggle the cables, the intermittant makes contact again for a few more potholes. In such a case, they were trying to prevent you from having further issues but actually caused a problem in the process. I'm not sure you should be too upset with them if this were the case, as long as they don't charge you for another battery or labor to troubleshoot it and install it.

With your car being a 2003, I doubt you've had temporary cable connections installed, but I should ask anyway. These are the connector ends with two bolts to clamp down on the battery cable. If you have one or two of these connectors installed, that's very likely your problem. These are not intended as long-term fixes, but rather a "get me to the nearest parts house" fix. The cable is exposed and will corrode quickly, causing symptoms similar to what you describe.

-Rod

Update: Car was dropped off again Monday morning. Dealer says it may be the starter, I questioned him on why now, why not last week? They assured me last week it was not the starter or alternator. Found out Dealer contracts out service dept. They get very defensive when I question them especially when I told them I will not pay for the battery if it wasn't needed. From what I can tell it does look like they used temporary cables. In the meantime my brother said there is a bolt missing from the starter which dealer never mentioned. This the same dealer that forgot to put in the oil plug after a oil change resulting in oil all over my garage floor. They do not want to admit any mistakes to me. The is the first issue I have had with the car. It's been mainitained regularly. I would like to keep the car for a few more years without pouring $$ into it. I am livid with this service dept as another day goes by without a car. Can anyone recommend a reputable repair place? I am close to Interstate 88 in North Aurora. I will keep you guys updated. Thanks so much.

A bad starter will not cause the battery light to come on in the instrument cluster. See if they can explain that one. Take notes and post back with their explanation.

Actually, a bad battery will rarely cause the indicator to come on either, generally that's due to a charging system issue, usually the alternator.

-Rod

2nd Update: Dealer: This is a ghost car. Starter and alternator are good. I cleaned and grounded cables and reprogrammed car.
ME: Is it fixed?
Serv. Mgr. Don't know, never seen anything like this before.
ME: ARE you kidding me! Where is the repair ticket? Is the battery light still coming on?
Serv. Mgr. No the battery light is not coming on anymore. I am keeping this ticket open.
ME: So you are telling me that no one here can troubleshoot this problem.
Serv Mgr. No
Me: I am done playing around with you guys, I don't want anymore drama with this. I am on the interstate everyday and now your sending me out in a car that may or may not start.
Serv. Mgr. Well there is no charge.
At this point I had to hold my tongue and walk out. Get out to the car and battery light is still on. :mad: I have now been inconvenienced 2 entire days.

This does seem to be a headscratcher, but I feel they are missing some basics.

Do you have any idea what the battery's condition is when you can't get it to start, and how do you eventually get it to start? If your charging system is discharging your battery while you drive, even with a new one, you could have nothing left to start it.

I would have taken your car to the garage bay as soon as you started it with the light on for them to measure the charging system. That light should only come on when the charging system is at or below battery voltage if it's an old type system or maybe below the low voltage output of the alternator voltage regulator. I'm not really sure what the threshhold exactly is without some digging. Maybe Rod can help on that. The dealer, heck even I can troubleshoot the different internal circuits via the connector pins on the alternator to rule it out. I also have read in a REAL FORD's service manual, in some instances, to put in a good alt as a means to diagnose the problem. Sissies! That's not a convience most of us have or can do with no return policies on electrical parts. Did they say if they tried this, or maybe you should suggest they do it as per their manual?

During a hardstart, I'd also measure the battery voltage dip to see what's going on there. Barely any dip would indicate, I think, the starter isn't getting enough power due to bad connection. I think, help me here Rod, if the starter pulls the battery below maybe 5 volts, the starter is bad, binding, shorting. This assumes you have a good battery. I'd rather be thorough and have too much info than not enough, as it is obvious your dealer doesn't have enough and/or doesn't know what to do with it!?!

A parasitic drain doesn't seem to explain the light on. So, I wonder if the battery light circuit is suspect. If not the alternator side, then the resistor in parallel with the warning light is bad. I don't know. A real head scratcher. :banghead :banghead :banghead

A final thought, if you think you just need more battery power to get your car started when it won't, I'd take with me one of those jump start power packs. I got one dirt cheap from Cummins (crappo) tools for $30, made by Speedway Series. I assume you are carrying enough tools to work on this just in case of a no start.

DUH! DUH! DUH! DUH! DUH!

I may be wrong, but I think I found the MISSING LINK! There is one thing that is common to all of this stuff!?! The ignition switch!!!

Sorry for all the suspense, but I don't want to throw away everything else above, if it's not the ig sw.

The charge warning light circuit passes through it in run and start, basically going from the battery, through the ig sw, to the light, to the alternator. The ignition switch also connects the battery at its start position to the trans range sensor to the starter. Granted, these circuits originate from different fused sources, there could be shorting or jumping inside the ignition switch.

Do you ever drive through the Cedar Rapids, Iowa area during your Interstate trips?

-Rod

Rod? You didn't like my ignition switch idea?

I am carrying tools now. Never had one issue with this vehicle. Don't ever get to Iowa anymore. Usually on I88, 355, 294, very busy roads. On an average day I may have 10 or more stops. I will be out and about tomorrow about 8 hours and will note everything. Will update Tues. night. Thanks guys.

Rod? You didn't like my ignition switch idea?

That and that Transmission Range Sensor are both good thoughts on these goofy electrical issues. Plus, you took the time to look over the wiring diagrams to see if there is a common link, so pretty good.

If Mindyshop is comfortable using those tools, the TRS and ignition switch could probably be changed out at home for less than one more trip to the shop. I hate to suggest shotgunning parts, but that may be what needs to happen in this case.

-Rod

Update: Took car to a good old boy working in a one man shop. Within 2 minutes underneath the car he diagnosed the starter. Wonder why my dealer could not? Car is running perfect now. Turns over smooth. Called the dealer :loser: and spoke with the service manager, informed him of the situation and asked how he is going to remedy charging me for a new battery that was not needed. He gave me a line that the battery was bad blah, blah, blah. Battery was replaced in Dec. 05, could be a possibility but he has no way of proving it was bad and I have no way of proving it was good. Told him he better think about what he is going to do for me and get back with me. Of course he hasn't. Remember they has the car 2 full days. Not sure how I should proceed. I am thinking about writing Ford headquarters. Thanks guys for all your help, it is much appreciated. :smile:

I don't understand how a bad starter would ever cause the battery light to come on and remain on when driving. You may have had a combination of issues here. I'm glad the car seems to be working fine for you, but with the information you've provided, many things are not making sense. I wouldn't necessarily burn your bridge with the dealer yet as you'd have a really hard time proving that they are in the wrong. Yes, it can be frustrating to be on your end of the deal, but at the same time, think of the difficulty the dealer is placed in. If they change out a bunch of parts to be certain they've solved the problem, then you wouldn't be happy because the bill would be large and what is the liklihood that the alternator, battery, starter, ignition switch, and TRS were all bad. However, if they take two days to attempt to diagnose the problem and think they have it solved, you're unhappy that they took two days and you are still able to duplicate the issue. Yet if they shotgun an alternator which would be the likely suspect and get the car back to you in 3 hours, but then you still have the problem you again won't be happy.

Now you take it to another guy who knows that the work that's been performed, there are fewer options that he has to choose from as being suspect. Did you explain to the good old boy that the battery light was on? What is his logic for diagnosing a starter as being the culprit, even though the battery light is on while you're driving the car and the starter is not in use?

We're all human, no one can be right all the time. I have difficulty defending a dealership, but at the same time, I've been on the receiving end of an unhappy customer, even though I did the logical repair based on the information I was provided by the customer as well as what the quick troubleshooting pointed to.

-Rod

Thanks fo the info Rod. Not sure if I will pursue this or not. No one could give me answers on the battery light. Appreciate your help.

Mindyshop, you didn't say if your alt/bat light went out or not, but it sounds like it may have as you aren't saying it's still on. What did the mechanic find wrong with your starter? Did he find a loose ignition start wire connector loose? I've had that problem on two 95s with the 3.8 engine but no warning lights, just won't start.