Weird electrical issue ('99 Escort SE)
Crash1181
06-17-2008, 08:19 AM
Recently I had issues with my alternator not charging well enough so I bought a rebuild kit. When I took apart the alternator I found one whole brush missing and the other was in bad shape. So I was pretty confident I had solved the problem. Put in the new brushes, regulator, and bearings, and all was well for about a week. Then yesterday this happened:
1 - Drove about 35 miles (mostly highway) with no issue
2 - Parked in a parking lot
3 - Played a soccer game (car sat for 2 hours)
4 - Got back in car, car started fine, and I drove another 20 miles (1/2 highway, 1/2 city)
5 - Parked car at Arby's parking lot, went inside, paid way too much for a sandwich and fries, came back out about 10 minutes later (I waited way too long for an over-priced meal, but that's beside the point)
6 - BARELY was able to start the car. It acted as if the battery was really low on charge, but it had just enough to start.
7 - Drove it about 2 miles to the house with the battery light kinda going on and off at random.
8 - Parked car in driveway, turned off engine, tried to restart and got pretty much nothing.
9 - Hooked up a 10 amp battery charger, charger was showing a 7 amp draw. I left it on for about 5 minutes or so and tried to start the car. It started fine. As if nothing was wrong. When it started, the draw on the charged reduced to about 4 amps.
10 - Unhooked battery charger, and was able to start the car again with no problems.
11 - Let sit for an hour, then checked with multimeter (12.5 volts at rest, 14.3 volts when started) Everything seems fine now.
12 - Let sit overnight, got in at 6:30 this morning to go to work, and it started fine.
13 - After about 4 minutes of driving the battery light started to come on. I noticed a pattern. It was coming on at low engine rpm. If I put it in nuetral and revved the engine high, the battery light went away.
14 - Made it into work, parked car, turned off engine, tried to restart and got nothing again.
Now I'm stranded at work with a car that won't start. Anyone have a clue what could cause these symptoms. My first thought was my battery just crapped out on me all of the sudden. However, when it started fine after only 5 minutes on a charger I thought maybe I just had a loose wire on the starter. Then after this morning's events, I'm back to junk battery again.
I believe the thing has the original Motorcraft battery (maybe 9 years old).
I'm going to run out in the parking lot in a minute with a multimeter and check the voltage. It's been sitting there for almost 2 hours now. I'll update in a few, but in the meantime, anyone have any ideas? Besides a junk battery, the only thing I can think of, it there's a huge current draw somewhere due to a short while the engine is running. *Update - battery reads 12.3 volts*
I've been searching this site for similar issues and noticed that it helps to clarify what kind of car it is. It's a '99 Escort SE (2.0L) manual transmission with 131,000 miles.
1 - Drove about 35 miles (mostly highway) with no issue
2 - Parked in a parking lot
3 - Played a soccer game (car sat for 2 hours)
4 - Got back in car, car started fine, and I drove another 20 miles (1/2 highway, 1/2 city)
5 - Parked car at Arby's parking lot, went inside, paid way too much for a sandwich and fries, came back out about 10 minutes later (I waited way too long for an over-priced meal, but that's beside the point)
6 - BARELY was able to start the car. It acted as if the battery was really low on charge, but it had just enough to start.
7 - Drove it about 2 miles to the house with the battery light kinda going on and off at random.
8 - Parked car in driveway, turned off engine, tried to restart and got pretty much nothing.
9 - Hooked up a 10 amp battery charger, charger was showing a 7 amp draw. I left it on for about 5 minutes or so and tried to start the car. It started fine. As if nothing was wrong. When it started, the draw on the charged reduced to about 4 amps.
10 - Unhooked battery charger, and was able to start the car again with no problems.
11 - Let sit for an hour, then checked with multimeter (12.5 volts at rest, 14.3 volts when started) Everything seems fine now.
12 - Let sit overnight, got in at 6:30 this morning to go to work, and it started fine.
13 - After about 4 minutes of driving the battery light started to come on. I noticed a pattern. It was coming on at low engine rpm. If I put it in nuetral and revved the engine high, the battery light went away.
14 - Made it into work, parked car, turned off engine, tried to restart and got nothing again.
Now I'm stranded at work with a car that won't start. Anyone have a clue what could cause these symptoms. My first thought was my battery just crapped out on me all of the sudden. However, when it started fine after only 5 minutes on a charger I thought maybe I just had a loose wire on the starter. Then after this morning's events, I'm back to junk battery again.
I believe the thing has the original Motorcraft battery (maybe 9 years old).
I'm going to run out in the parking lot in a minute with a multimeter and check the voltage. It's been sitting there for almost 2 hours now. I'll update in a few, but in the meantime, anyone have any ideas? Besides a junk battery, the only thing I can think of, it there's a huge current draw somewhere due to a short while the engine is running. *Update - battery reads 12.3 volts*
I've been searching this site for similar issues and noticed that it helps to clarify what kind of car it is. It's a '99 Escort SE (2.0L) manual transmission with 131,000 miles.
mightymoose_22
06-17-2008, 03:24 PM
You should remove your alternator and have it bench tested. If it comes out ok, replace your battery as it is not holding a charge.
It does sound like more of an alternator problem though.
It does sound like more of an alternator problem though.
AzTumbleweed
06-17-2008, 05:13 PM
If that battery is 9 years old I would replace it regardless. No way that it is still good. The only thing that comes to my mind is the fan belt is slipping.
Davescort97
06-18-2008, 12:46 AM
With 1 brush missing before overhaul I'd think maybe the commutator has been scored up. Did it look all right when you had it rebuilt? I know you will get an off and on generator light when the brushes are too worn for the springs to hold them against the commutator. Get a new battery. I replace mine every 3 years. One of the most economical things to replace on a vehicle. Take the alternator off and get it bench tested at the parts place.
Crash1181
06-18-2008, 07:27 AM
Well here's the update. I took the battery into Murray's to have it tested, and of course it failed. It had almost no capacity left so I bought a new one. That was no surprise. The surprise was that when I put the new battery in, I still had the battery warning light on at low engine rpm's. At this point I knew something was wrong with the alternator again so when I got home I took it out and inspected it. When I pulled off the regulator/brush assembly one of the brushes didn't come with it. The wire had broke it's connection with the side of the brush. So now I'm pretty sure I know what was causing the light to come on.
Well, I tried to solder the wire back on, but that didn't work so basically I squeezed the wire up tight into the spring behind that particular brush. Put everything back together, and now I have no warning lights and the car starts great.
So now I'm in the market for a new/rebuilt alternator because obviously the rebuild kit full of Chinese parts was junk. I'm also going to call up Advance Auto Parts and demand that refund my money if their stuff can't last more than 2 weeks.
Moral of the story:
1 - alternator rebuild kits from Victory Lap are crap, don't waste your money
2 - If you have a '97-99' Escort and the battery light is coming on and off at different speeds, you might very well need new brushes in your alternator. However, since you can't get decent replacement parts, just get a new alternator.
Well, I tried to solder the wire back on, but that didn't work so basically I squeezed the wire up tight into the spring behind that particular brush. Put everything back together, and now I have no warning lights and the car starts great.
So now I'm in the market for a new/rebuilt alternator because obviously the rebuild kit full of Chinese parts was junk. I'm also going to call up Advance Auto Parts and demand that refund my money if their stuff can't last more than 2 weeks.
Moral of the story:
1 - alternator rebuild kits from Victory Lap are crap, don't waste your money
2 - If you have a '97-99' Escort and the battery light is coming on and off at different speeds, you might very well need new brushes in your alternator. However, since you can't get decent replacement parts, just get a new alternator.
Crash1181
06-18-2008, 07:33 AM
With 1 brush missing before overhaul I'd think maybe the commutator has been scored up. Did it look all right when you had it rebuilt? I know you will get an off and on generator light when the brushes are too worn for the springs to hold them against the commutator. Get a new battery. I replace mine every 3 years. One of the most economical things to replace on a vehicle. Take the alternator off and get it bench tested at the parts place.
Actually everything looked great inside the alternator. I cleaned up everything with scotch-brite, and there were no rough surfaces. The off / on light was due to the fact that one brush was gone, and the other had worn down to the retaining hole. So I had less than 50% contact available, and most likely the spring was at max travel anyway.
One thing I keep noticing is everyone is very quick to blame a slipping belt. That's the first thing I thought too, but the belt was perfect. Also, a new battery every 3 years?!?! I have always had Ford vehicles with stock Motorcraft batteries, and never had an issue. I have a '99 Ranger with the original battery still in it, and it starts fine. I have a friend who has a '97 Crown Vic that still has the original battery in it, and we both live in Michigan (sort of harsh winters).
Actually everything looked great inside the alternator. I cleaned up everything with scotch-brite, and there were no rough surfaces. The off / on light was due to the fact that one brush was gone, and the other had worn down to the retaining hole. So I had less than 50% contact available, and most likely the spring was at max travel anyway.
One thing I keep noticing is everyone is very quick to blame a slipping belt. That's the first thing I thought too, but the belt was perfect. Also, a new battery every 3 years?!?! I have always had Ford vehicles with stock Motorcraft batteries, and never had an issue. I have a '99 Ranger with the original battery still in it, and it starts fine. I have a friend who has a '97 Crown Vic that still has the original battery in it, and we both live in Michigan (sort of harsh winters).
tripletdaddy
06-18-2008, 11:42 AM
Well I real POed as I had a nice and long post for you that I lost in a momentary lapse of alertness.
I agree on the possible damage by the brushes to the commutator, making it difficult for the brushes to conduct electricity. You may even have shorting across it from metal bridging the insulators or the insulators are missing. Is there any chance any of the electrical connections you made as part of the repair could be not right, especially the brushes in the brush holder?
Your battery should measure 14 to 15 volts with engine on. Much lower means it is not outputting enough (see next paragraph) and much higher means the voltage regulator is not working right. I found that if you add your hi beams and the ac, the voltage will dip but should recover to as before. Also you could see how good your battery and alternator as a pair are by having the high beams and ac on and watch to see when you raise the rpm, if the lights stay the same brightness, good, or brighten and then dim when rpm drops to idle, bad.
To further test the alternator, start with the engine and key off and take a battery reading. Then take the following measurements by backprobing at the connectors:
B+ 12volts or same as battery (SAB)
Key on engine off:
A 12 volts or SAB or S if no A
B+ 12 volts or SAB
I 1 volt (sometimes called "L" terminal)
Key on engine on at 2000 rpm:
A 14.0 - 14.7 volts or S if no A
B+ 14.0 - 14.7 volts or the same as "A" terminal
I 13.0 -14.0 volts or "L" terminal
Check wiring and connections if the readings aren't as they should be. Check to see if the alternator is well grounded. Otherwise, the alt is bad.
To check for a parasitic drain on the battery while the car's off, you can pull the positive battery cable off and put a continuity test light between the two with everything turned off. You should little or no perceptib;e light. A fairly bright light indicates you have a drain that needs to be found. To check the alternator for a drain, disconnect the B+ wire and put the tester inbetween the two and do that to the other terminals A and I (or L).
Since there seem to be several alt designs for the Escort, to locate these terminals, I've attached the following links from AutoZone.com:
This is the 3 pin voltage regulator
http://www.autozone.com/R,APP204055/vehicleId,2537801/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,2015/partType,00097/shopping/partProductDetail.htm
that fits this alternator
http://www.autozone.com/R,APP181785/vehicleId,2537801/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,2015/partType,00086/shopping/partProductDetail.htm
which looks like this alternator schematic.
wyciwyg://51/http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c1528008d9f1
Or, you may have a 2 pin regulator/alternator like this schematic:
wyciwyg://52/http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c1528008d9f1
I hope this helps.
Good luck!
I agree on the possible damage by the brushes to the commutator, making it difficult for the brushes to conduct electricity. You may even have shorting across it from metal bridging the insulators or the insulators are missing. Is there any chance any of the electrical connections you made as part of the repair could be not right, especially the brushes in the brush holder?
Your battery should measure 14 to 15 volts with engine on. Much lower means it is not outputting enough (see next paragraph) and much higher means the voltage regulator is not working right. I found that if you add your hi beams and the ac, the voltage will dip but should recover to as before. Also you could see how good your battery and alternator as a pair are by having the high beams and ac on and watch to see when you raise the rpm, if the lights stay the same brightness, good, or brighten and then dim when rpm drops to idle, bad.
To further test the alternator, start with the engine and key off and take a battery reading. Then take the following measurements by backprobing at the connectors:
B+ 12volts or same as battery (SAB)
Key on engine off:
A 12 volts or SAB or S if no A
B+ 12 volts or SAB
I 1 volt (sometimes called "L" terminal)
Key on engine on at 2000 rpm:
A 14.0 - 14.7 volts or S if no A
B+ 14.0 - 14.7 volts or the same as "A" terminal
I 13.0 -14.0 volts or "L" terminal
Check wiring and connections if the readings aren't as they should be. Check to see if the alternator is well grounded. Otherwise, the alt is bad.
To check for a parasitic drain on the battery while the car's off, you can pull the positive battery cable off and put a continuity test light between the two with everything turned off. You should little or no perceptib;e light. A fairly bright light indicates you have a drain that needs to be found. To check the alternator for a drain, disconnect the B+ wire and put the tester inbetween the two and do that to the other terminals A and I (or L).
Since there seem to be several alt designs for the Escort, to locate these terminals, I've attached the following links from AutoZone.com:
This is the 3 pin voltage regulator
http://www.autozone.com/R,APP204055/vehicleId,2537801/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,2015/partType,00097/shopping/partProductDetail.htm
that fits this alternator
http://www.autozone.com/R,APP181785/vehicleId,2537801/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,2015/partType,00086/shopping/partProductDetail.htm
which looks like this alternator schematic.
wyciwyg://51/http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c1528008d9f1
Or, you may have a 2 pin regulator/alternator like this schematic:
wyciwyg://52/http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c1528008d9f1
I hope this helps.
Good luck!
tripletdaddy
06-18-2008, 11:50 AM
Well poop!!! You got it squared away before you could read my elaborate and lengthy blah, blah, blah. Oh well. It's the thought that counts. Right? I guess I'd be brave enough to come up with something that will still be reliable, another spring, thin piece of brass or copper. Get your money back from AA and get a reg from Napa or Carquest. They have better stuff. Or a rebuilder. I was able to get just the brushes from Napa too.
Crash1181
06-18-2008, 01:14 PM
Well poop!!! You got it squared away before you could read my elaborate and lengthy blah, blah, blah. Oh well. It's the thought that counts. Right? I guess I'd be brave enough to come up with something that will still be reliable, another spring, thin piece of brass or copper. Get your money back from AA and get a reg from Napa or Carquest. They have better stuff. Or a rebuilder. I was able to get just the brushes from Napa too.Thanks for the advice. I checked with Napa, and they have a brush assembly for $14. I looked at the picture, and they look like much better quality than the ones I got from the Victory Lap kit. I'll let you guys know how this turns out. If they work out well and I get another couple years out of this alternator, $14 is a steal.
tripletdaddy
06-19-2008, 02:36 AM
Sounds good, but those links I attached were AutoZone, not Napa, if you were referring to them. Which, incidently, I think I have a set from, but haven't yet used them afterall and are just hanging on to them till I do need them.
Crash1181
07-01-2008, 11:28 AM
Update on this issue:
I swapped out the Chinese bearings for the originals (Singapore and Canada bearings), and I replaced the brush assembly with the good one from Napa for $14. Now everything is perfect. The car starts nicely with the new battery and the voltages are all great. I returned the entire alternator rebuild kit to Advance Auto, and they gave me a full refund no questions asked because it happened within 30 days.
I swapped out the Chinese bearings for the originals (Singapore and Canada bearings), and I replaced the brush assembly with the good one from Napa for $14. Now everything is perfect. The car starts nicely with the new battery and the voltages are all great. I returned the entire alternator rebuild kit to Advance Auto, and they gave me a full refund no questions asked because it happened within 30 days.
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