I said I'd do something about it...

K, so now that gas is at a national average of $4.00+ per gallon (more expensive than milk), I'm fulfilling an old promise I made to some friends and family a few years ago.

I'm going to start experimenting with fuels, because frankly, it's time someone did something.. and, obviously, you can't single-handedly change the price of oil/gas, so that means you have to learn to improvise.

There are several test subjects I've been looking at, one of which is Xylene, as it's in fully available supply where I work.. I'm a Union Bricklayer (Pointer, Caulker, Cleaner) (BAC Local 5), and because of the caulk and polymers that we use, we clean our equipment with Xylene, which has an octane rating of 117. (Or 114, depending on what blend of iso-polymers was used to create it.)

I'm going to be testing Xylene, Toluene, Acetone additive, and... for some reason, the "water fuel cell as an additive". I'm not going to explain that one.. you can look it up all over the place...

But, I figure that since I can rebuild my engine and fix just about anything that goes wrong with it, and, shortly, I'll be capable of tuning my ECU on the fly, I'll do the research to see what's up with fuel additives, and may eventually try replacing gasoline altogether.

And, just for the record... F\/©|< OIL COMPANIES.

Keep in mind, testing is a delicate procedure, and will take quite some time to nail down a given result, and make it repeatable... so please, be patient, I will post results as I get them.

i say we use magnets and long sticks...that way we float on the roads and use the sticks to push ourselves :thumbsup:

ROFL.. that was another consideration I had... the "magnet trick"... I'm going to test it with all my homebrew mixes, as gasoline is comprised mostly of solids, and only remains liquid as a result of chemical bonds. The magnet is supposed to "align" the molecules of the fuel solids, in suspension, thus allowing more surface tension and better resolution to vaporization, while allowing for a slightly increased resistance to compression-based ignition (auto-igniton, detonation)

Starting with xylene, like I said, due to it's relatively high availability at work.

I'm pretty sure I could walk away with 2 gallons over a week, and noone would notice, since we get it in bulk.

Also, with acetone, it's not used as an octane booster, it's used as a vaporizer for gasoline, as it promotes higher surface tension among the distillates and solids in gasoline, which allows a finer vaporization of the fuel after it's injected, and during combustion.

The recommended mix is something like 2.5oz per 10 gallons. It has also been said to provide better fuel economy, up to 30%, due to the added vaporization.

The only doubt among those discussing it, is the potential damage to fuel system components... which is null, as gasoline itself contains xylene, toluene, and MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone), all of which are stronger solvents than Acetone, even in it's pure form. (NOT NAIL POLISH REMOVER.)

In fact, MEK is what we (at work) use as "reactivator" after someone makes a "boo-boo" with 2 part polymer epoxies... it will literally melt plastic buckets (normal 5-gallon paint buckets) as you watch.

On a side note, Honda used Toluene in it's F1 cars, not as an additive, but as the main fuel, using 84% Toluene (114 octane) and 16% n- or o-Heptane (0 octane) to level off at a modest 102 octane (all that F1 rules allowed), and produced power levels of 1000bhp/liter in a 1.5 liter engine, utilizing up to 5 atmospheres of boost pressure. (14.7*5=73.5psi)

One would obviously assume this WAS NOT a standard D15B2, but still, the result was widely known then, and is still easily researchable.

By the way, Toluene can be purchased in bulk for around $3 per gallon.

I found this a couple years ago (maybe even someone here linking to it). It's about Toulene used as "race gas". Thought it might be interesting to add to the discussion.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=243992

it's not allowed in SCCA competition anymore, nor any sanctioned event... but it does still have many valid uses in street tuning.

By the way, this is science... so anyone with supporting evidence, please feel free to correct me at any point in time... I could use the help if you have it to offer.

But please, don't just spout off and say something b/c you "know" it's right, just b/c your father's best friend's uncle has a husky that said so.

try adding some diesel to the gasoline, that will boost mileage and I heard from a friend of mine that knows somebody that know somebody that robbed some people, and he is giving that stuff away

adding diesel to your gasoline is a stupid way to blow your engine... if you add too much, it will destroy your fuel pump, clog your filter and injectors, and due to the fact that diesel isn't exactly "explosive" under gas engine conditions, it will turn to gel if any deposits are left in your engine, which will completely gum up everything... hell, even diesel trucks have issues with that.

adding diesel to your gasoline is a stupid way to blow your engine... if you add too much, it will destroy your fuel pump, clog your filter and injectors, and due to the fact that diesel isn't exactly "explosive" under gas engine conditions, it will turn to gel if any deposits are left in your engine, which will completely gum up everything... hell, even diesel trucks have issues with that.

I can vouch for that, i'm a diesel technician at the bus company and fuel filters don't last more than a month :rolleyes:

F\/©|< OIL COMPANIES. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--AGREED--

Good for you man! Good luck in your ventures and hopefully you dont destroy your engine to badly. You better keep us posted!

I place doubt on this venture…if it works, all the research will disappear and Dr0pZ0n3 will turn up missing

lol Blu... ever the optimist :P

Update on this: I no longer work for that contractor, due to his douche-ness... therefore, when I can afford the chemicals and additives, I'll get them, but until then... don't hold your breath.

Already tried the Acetone...its a failure. Did not see any improvements on gas mileage, but I have also ran into some hesitation problems since I added it. On a new tank of gas now and the hesitation is starting to go away. Don't know if it was from the Acetone, or an issue with my IACV I have been having(short somewhere, I'm thinking a ground).

Either way, even before the hesitation started, gas mileage was the same.

yeah, I was going to try it out with all the methods as well, to make combinations.

Xylene and acetone,
Toluene and Acetone,
Straight Xylene,
Straight Toluene,
Straight Acetone, and all with and without a coiled electro-magnet on the primary fuel line...

I figure by the end, I'll either prove or disprove all the crap on the market about adding stuff to your fuel.

It's fact already that Xylene and Toluene can be used to produce higher Octane levels, I just wanna see if they'll help you get better gas mileage, and how much... if any.

They'll probably actually make it worse. The higher octane gas is less prone to ignition..and also releases less energy. For instance, E85. 101 octane..about 85% as efficient as gasoline. of course the other chemicals you mentioned have varying levels of btu output, but I dont think they are going to make any impressive gains in economy. I think the basic focus is finding a replacement that can be had cheaper than gasoline per mile. For instance if you lose 5mpg, is it cheaper to go the same distance than gasoline.

E85-30% cheaper than 87 octane, but requires about 30% more to do the same in a normal low compression engine.

If E85 is in a high compression engine, and everything is tuned for it, it will be as efficient as gasoline, cheaper, and higher octane. When I build the new motor for my CRX, I plan on it running on E85.

I wouldnt mind running it either. But it is in no way as efficient. it requires more fuel to get the same power. But is safer to run more power with because of its higher octane. Id love to run e85 as a race fuel or even on a high power build, but on a daily basis its not totally worth it.

Octane doesn't determine the difficulty of spark-based ignition, it determines auto-ignition characteristics... of course, another way to get "free octane" is manipulating combustion chamber shape/flow design characteristics.

Gas engines can run compression levels over 14:1 on pump gas with the proper tuning. Which tells you that Octane isn't all that important when you're tuning.

If you don't believe any of this, that's fine, I tend to sway from "common knowledge" anyway.

I will tell you this though... the reason NASCAR limits compression on it's vehicles to roughly 12:1 is b/c back in the late 70's to early 80's, Comp and a few other companies joined up to make it possible to run 18:1 and 19:1 compression ratios on the pisswater they had for gas back then.

E85, by the way, is Ethanol and Gasoline... Ethanol is an Ether, which is an alcohol, which is not oil based, and helps to dissipate oil, which means that they had to add more chemicals and detergents and lubricants to the fuel, all of which are either mineral based or polymer based, which is why E85 doesn't run all that great in a normal engine.

Gasoline (normal) has Toluene and Xylene already in it. They are considered "Aromatics". Both are oil-based, meaning they provide proper lubricity, rather than taking it away, both have the same spark-ignition temps as gas, yet they both have a higher auto-ignition temp, which is where Octane levels come in.

Most people don't see a gain in HP or mileage from using higher octane fuel b/c their engine doesn't require it, therefore isn't tuned for it. put higher octane in, you can advance your timing and lean out your fuel curve slightly, which helps provide more power, and better combustion efficiency.

Oh, by the way, if you buy Toluene in 55 gal drums, it's $1 or more cheaper than gasoline per gallon, and can be run straight, with tuning for fuel/ignition curves.

117 Octane out of the box. (Barrel)

http://theoldone.com/articles/Larryscivic/Larrys_Civic.htm

"I've milled the head to net stock valve to deck clearances, which resulted in a chamber volume of 41.3cc's. With .010" deck clearance and a .030" Cometic head gasket the static compression equates to 13.21-1, which I believe (from my experience with the 2-liter in my ITR) will be manageable on pump-gas." "The ITR’s B Series engine (http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/) has been an impressive piece since day one. It’s torque and drivability continue to astound me, and with it’s 13.4-1 compression ratio, it also achieves outstanding fuel mileage which is becoming more important by the day."
02-20-06 We spent about a half hour fooling with the fuel curve in VTEC this morning. This is the one and only full pull we did. I was pulling back on the throttle at 9000 RPM.

http://theoldone.com/articles/Larryscivic/MondayDyno.jpg





Now that the weather here has blessed us with temperatures of less than 100 degrees, I'll begin thinking about the rear fenders, but it's still going to be some time before I'm ready to do them. Next up for the car is a fabricated induction tube, some intake manifold mods, a larger throttle body, and longer secondary tubes for the header. Since building this engine, we've been hard on R&D here, and the changes I've outlined have netted some pretty sweet results on a street engine that's identical to the one in my car. An early dyno test sheet on that engine is below.....


http://theoldone.com/articles/Larryscivic/Dyno11.jpg



After measuring front toe-in and confirming that all was "straight", I drove the car to a local shop for a quick dyno test to see what the manifold, throttle body, and header modifications had netted. After a couple runs, I advanced the intake cam 1.5 degrees, and we were rewarded with the following pull.

http://theoldone.com/articles/Larryscivic/Augustdyno21.jpg



This run was made running pump gas on a 104 degree August day, with heat-soaked intake air temps of 140 degrees. I believe that 280 whp is obtainable with a combination of better atmospheric conditions and a more scientifically designed induction tube/filter combination, but I can tell you this from experience.....engines that exhibit torque "bulges" like this at the bottom of the gear accelerate like there's no tomorrow....and of course, the car's even more fun to drive now.

Quotes taken from: http://theoldone.com/articles/Larryscivic/Larrys_Civic.htm

Everyone who doubts what I say about Octane and boost and running pump gas in HO engines, should read just about anything on this site. "www.TheOldOne.com"

Yes, E85 is 85% Ethanol, and gas, along with other additives. But with the correct tuning, it can be as efficient as gas. Hell, Formula cars run on more ethanol than that, granted thats on a totally different level, but I think on a high compression engine with the correct tuning, e85 is highly possible.

Anyways, this is kind of going away from what Dropzone is after.

I have learned through experience, that you cannot trust everything that Larry says, or has said. Yes, he is very smart, but somewhat of a mad scientist.

Oh, yeah, I'm aware of that lol... I've actually had a few conversations with him both on the phone and online... I'd rather talk to him on the phone than online, honestly, b/c I think he loses his train of thought too fast with so many things to pay attention to.

What I actually spoke with him about was having parts mirror-machined, i.e. having a set of pistons and head cc's mirrored to each other to increase compression and flow tendencies.

What I ended up with for an answer was that it would be better over a certain range, b/c of the harmonics that it would cause with flow, but the dollar for dollar price vs. HP increases probably wouldn't make it worthwhile for other than a race engine where there isn't a budget.

He also said something about considering a B-series on my next project (jokingly).

And Tony, the potential is there with E85, the issue is still that there have to be more detergents and additives to the fuel to maintain cylinder lubricity. Tuning aside, it's not cool to spend that long working on an engine and have it die w/in 30k b/c you can't maintain upper cylinder lubrication.

And, that's exactly what ethanol does. (When not used with other methods of lubrication.)

This isn't exactly off topic, and the original topic is post-poned for now anyway, so lets play out the alternative fuels chatter and ways to improve gas mileage and output?

lots of variables, little controls, kinds interesting - so have you tries some of theses additives out yet-
heres something- but kinda wierd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnc7M0JDjok

That's kind of interesting... I"ll have to keep contact and see how many more of those videos come out... if it's true, those gains are quite impressive.

Most insteresting is the fact that he's using the same additives as I was going to.. but, like I said, this project has been post-poned indefinitely for me.

K, so I semi-started here... I had some leftover Xylene after cleaning up my tools from my Caulking job... so I decided "why not..."

Normal average atm in my Civic is 32 mpg. (Used to be 45 or so, not sure what happened.)

Last Sunday night, when I got gas for my car, I added just less than a quart of raw Xylene (Xylol) before fueling my car with the typical 87 octane garbage.

So far, here's what's happened:
11.75 gallons of 87 octane Gasoline
.250 gallons (1 quart) raw Xylol

So far, my car has lowered itself 4 inches, changed it's own paint, found a cure for its cancer spots, shined up the rims, turned into a turbo/supercharged monster w/ a C32A in it, decided to run for president, lost it's chance at presidency because of an emotional outburst on public television, then decided to endorse the candidate that made it "cry", and creates it's own nitrous from the driver's enthusiasm level.

It also idles more smoothly than it used to.

(Obviously, only one of these things is true. Come on... you didn't think a miracle would happen did you?)

In all honesty... it does idle more smoothly... it doesn't seem to accelerate faster, but I don't take it above 4k or so anymore, however, it DOES seem to have more "holding" power... as in, I can hold speeds on hills and such, w/o using WOT.

It doesn't sputter when it's cold anymore, only one skip every few seconds while idling, rather than a few skips every few seconds.

It's only been 47 miles on this tank, but a cursory glance shows that fuel mileage seems relatively unaffected... this dose isn't even close to the "recommended" dose tho... which is 10-15% Xylol per tank. In the future, if results stay close to what they are now, or improve over time, I'll continue adding more until I reach the 10-15% "recommendation", and see what happens from there.

Result of the first dose of Xylene, 1.35mpg increase.

Went from 32MPG even to 33.35 MPG, and the car idled more smoothly, no hesitation etc.

keep in mind, the dizzy isn't timed correctly either since I haven't had a lower timing cover since I put the engine in.

I'm running a second tank of the same fuel to make sure whether I will get the same mileage or not, w/o the xylene added.

Basically, if I get the same mileage, it wasn't due to the xylene... if I get less mileage, it WAS due to the xylene, and I'll add more next time I get some.

The second tank is from the same batch, same pump, at the same gas station. This is a control tank, testing the actual result for validity.

There would be several explanations if I get the same mileage on this tank as the last one, one of which would be that the excess Xylene helped clean stuff out and make the engine run more efficiently.