The Clinic Model Thread

Hey Guy's,

I have two questions. One, I thought the only clinical model was the silver one from the launch brochure, how do we have this one in red? Another question I have been meaning to ask pertains to the engine. Since McLaren makes their own Formula one engines for the race cars, why did they not make their own engine for the F1 road car? Why did they search for one from another manufacturer? I'm as passionate about the F1 as all of you are, so you might be wondering how I don't already know the answers to these question. The answers may possibly be in DA but the thing with me is time. Believe it or not I actually have not read DA yet even though I have been passionate about the F1 and DA for all these years. So, if you have the answers to these question I'd appreciate it.

Mike

Forgot to mention that i also asked a question about a model in the "Most paid for a model" thread, please see that one as well.

Thanks!

The clinic model had some disctinguishing features unique to it, such as no engine, different interior etc and wore Silver, red yellow and blue [still need a pic of it in blue...] paint.

I suggest you buy DA as most of the great questions I'm sure you have will have their answers in there :)

Since McLaren makes their own Formula one engines for the race cars, why did they not make their own engine for the F1 road car? Why did they search for one from another manufacturer?

Mike

In the modern era of Formula One McLaren have never produced their own engines. Their engines are currently sourced through Mercedes Benz, but in the past they have also partnered with Honda, Peugeot, Porsche, Cosworth and even Ford. Through their history they have primarily been a chassis constructor, though in the early days when Bruce McLaren was still alive they did have a company in the USA building their engines that, while having no connection to the current McLaren Group, still operates under the name McLaren Performance Technologies (http://www.mclarenperformance.com/eportal/portal/alias__McLaren/lang__en-US/tabID__3434/DesktopDefault.aspx).

There have been rumors circulated recently that they might begin producing their own racing engines - perhaps with a purchase of UK-based Engine Developments Limited, the makers of Judd engines or perhaps return to partnering with Honda when the turbo-era returns to Formula One in 2014.

>8^)
ER

Thanks for the info. In the interest of not looking stupid, I was always aware of the relationship McLaren had with Mercedes and other manufactures. I guess what I should have said is that I don't know why McLaren just did not get a block and then step all over it with their own engineering for both the road car and Formula 1. I guess that's in the political aspect of it all that I have never had any interest in.

I think it's less about politics and more about plain old money. Some would describe engine building at such a high level as a bit of an art. While I don't imagine the ability to produce a competitive and reliable Formula One engine would be beyond McLaren's grasp if they chose to focus on it, it really takes many years of development in order to perfect an engine design. There would be a cost to the team in real dollars for that learning curve as it is unlikely they'd be successful right out of the gate. It would be far easier for McLaren to acquire a company with a proven track record like I suggested they may do with EDL/Judd than it would be for them to try and form up a team of engine builders and build the facilities to produce engine components themselves. I'd say their current philosophy has been to focus on what they are good at and leverage outside suppliers in areas where their expertise is greater. It is the same reason they don't build their own brakes.

I do suspect if McLaren didn't have a current partner capable of supplying them a race winning engine like they've had with Mercedes since 1996 they might have ventured in the direction of becoming an engine supplier. The only reason there have been talks of change now is because they have mostly dissolved the equity position Mercedes held in McLaren for many years and of course MBZ have their own cars on the F1 grid now. There are obviously economies of scale in play for both Mercedes and McLaren that make it attractive for them to continue working together in Formula One and I'd imagine there are relationships that have formed over that 15 year span that likely add value to the arrangement as well. That said, we may not see any change at all.

One of the other motivations for them to produce their own Formula One engines in the future could be as a tie in to the McLaren Automotive group since they are (with the help of Ricardo in the UK) building their own engines for the road going cars now. It will be interesting to see how things play out over the next two years - I would certainly love to see a nose-to-tail "McLaren" on the grid competing head-to-head with the other teams that also build their chassis and engine.

>8^)
ER

Very interesting Erik. The fact that they are making their own engine for the new road car is one of the things that sparked my thoughts on the matter.

Speaking of the Clinic Model (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1079325), here are more interior photos from AutoCar - click to enlarge. :cool:

http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/imagecache/article_image_480/mclaren-f1-4.jpg (http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/mclaren-f1-4.jpg)

http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/imagecache/article_image_480/mclaren-f1-20.jpg (http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/mclaren-f1-20.jpg)

>8^)
ER

it looks like in the clinic model they used untidirectional carbon fibre for the chassis outter layer. On all the road cars they used a twill weave. Just another interesting difference....

Safe bet that in this case there was not another layer of carbon underneath that one either. ;-)

>8^)
ER

Hi,

Creating the registry, I hoped with Erik we can recieve new shots.

I have to thank you David from Portugal and his brother who sent me this pic of a yellow F1 taken in 1993.

For me, it apears as the Clinc model. Can you confirm.

David told me about the rumor of a F1 in Portugal, I answered it could be possible in the past but not today.

http://img140.imagevenue.com/loc454/th_307549816_Scan_Jul_16_201220_10_15_122_454lo.jp eg (http://img140.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=307549816_Scan_Jul_16_201220_10_15_1 22_454lo.jpeg)

Erik, you can merge the post if it's necessary.

Philippe

I've never seen the Clinic Model in yellow on display anywhere but the Beaulieu Museum, but that is certainly what this is.

Cool shots of it - I always love stuff that gets pulled out of the drawer like this. Thanks to David for sharing them. :)

>8^)
ER

they do state in DA that they painted it yellow as a request of a customer who was not sure what it would look like on a full size car, anyone know how long it kept the yellow?

Till the bitter end, I believe. Other than learning it was definitely crushed I've never heard of a date for its expiration.

>8^)
ER

Nice work so far Le Man - I'm drawing a blank as to whether I have either of those in my library so its great to get high quality scans of them. As a special request, would you be able to take a photo of the cover from each magazine article you share?

Meanwhile - I am blatantly stealing this content from one of sauc3's posts in his scan thread:



I don't recall where I borrowed these from, but they were probably shared here before. This is from SportAuto - July 1992. My apologies if French is not your language (mine neither) but the images contained within these pages are indeed very nice.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg01.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg01.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg02.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg02.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg03.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg03.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg04.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg04.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg05.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg05.jpg)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg06.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg06.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg07.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg07.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg08.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg08.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg09.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg09.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg10.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg10.jpg)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg11.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg11.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg12.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg12.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg13.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg13.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/th_SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg14.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20E/SportAuto_366jul92McLarenF1_pg14.jpg)

Anyone up for translating and retyping those pages for us would be my hero for at least a day. :grinyes:

>8^)
ER
Erik, this article is really worth reading, and I have started translating Gordon Murray's interview.
Please help me correct the translation "bugs" so that I can edit the post and have a clean translation.

“A technology that be usable”
A Wurlitzer juke-box from the 50s, a Bob Dylan poster, a dozen of Burago Ferrari model kits, a huge drawing table, it is right there is in his hi-tech office, that the brilliant designer of the McLaren F1 welcomed us. For two hours of unstopped discussion. About his life, and mainly about the work of his life


What strikes at first is the absolute secret around your project. All carbuilders get caught eventually but not you…
You know, these are secrets that are quite easy to keep as we are a small team, and very few external suppliers were involved, but I did think it would be impossible to keep the driving position secret. Nonetheless, it seems everyone kept it silent…

How did you proceed, practically speaking?
We have three security levels in this building. The only problem appeared when we were in contact with external companies. We had them signed a very strict contract on that respect. That’s all.

All of them respected it?
Yes, and I found it fascinating. All of them, without exception, believed in this car and they also had good reason to keep the silence.
How many people are involved in the project?
Here, at McLaren Cars Ltd, we are a bit more than forty employees, and there are around twentymore at Shelford, where we make the composites. But in the other companies, we have groups of people working for us. At BMW’s, fifteen engineers are dedicated to this project, thirty at St Gobain in France, five at Traction Products in California for the gearbox. Same at Goodyear, Brembo, Connelly, ou Kenwood in Japan. If you add up everybody, we should reach more or less two hundred persons but the design team is only made of 8 members.

How did the project come to life?
The administrative committee of McLaren, which is composed of Creighton Brown, Ron Dennis, Mansour Ojjeh and myself, began to discuss, beginning of 1998, a possible expansion of the group. At this time, we were winning everything in F1 and it was difficult to motivate people on the long run. We therefore decided to enlarge our activity, still in the engineering and by choosing a more commercial way that rises up interest in the company. Personally, my contract was ending end of 1989. I did not want to pursue in Formula 1. So we have thought of a research and development project. We studied all possibilities and found more logical to use our knowledge and design a road car using technology and materials from F1.

When did you really start working on this project?
Beginning of 1989, then we moved in our current building, and started working on March 12th, 1990. The first test car with a steel chassis powered by a Chevrolet V8 was born in June 90. We announced the contract with BMW in February 91 and had an operational engine in January 92.

What was, at the beginning, the philopsohy of this project?
To build the best sportscar, the fastest one, still remaining drivable and reasonably comfortable. Then see what would be its price, without compromising. I would not have accepted this job if it consisted in making a car targeting a given market at a given price, such as a Ferrari Testarossa or a Porsche 959 in a bit better. We did not want, not to damage McLaren’s image, build a race car converted for road use, whose owner would have a little fun and then keep it in their garage. What motivated us, was to bring to it a technology that be usable.

So there is still room for new concepts?
Of course! The big concept of a small sports car able to welcome three adults and their luggages, a 6-liter V12, is one of them. And although the central driving position is not something new, what is new is the driving position due to the shape of the seats that takes into account the gap between the shoulder and the hips. I also would like to add that all the active control systems are new, suspension control, brake control, and that is the first structure in the world truly monocoque totally made of advanced composite materials.

Do you plan to make this project evolve?
If I had 10 years and plenty of money, I would do exactly the same car, because I gave it all my thinking. I see no detail that I would change, because we thought a lot on the position of each and every device. We spent weeks changing the positions of switches and testing instruments with persons of various sizes. I do not really see what more I could do, except fitting a different type of engine.

Can we say this is the car of your life?
Yes, really. It is the car of my time. There are goals to be reached in the future, why not the one of monospaces, but for what concerns sports cars, I really do not see what else I could try.


Is this the car of this century or of the next one?
I do not want to sound presumptuous but I think we reached the final state of evolution for high performance cars. Someone might do a road-going racecar with 2,000 hp, but without any comfort, and any luggage. It is easy, just take a formula 1 car and put it a carrosserie. But an original sports car, usable, and so technologically advanced, I think it is a kind of achievement for this end of century. And who knows, maybe forever.


Because this car is both futuristic and classical?
Yes, yes. When I worked with Peter Stevens on the styling of the car, the idea was to have something futuristic in its design and its materials, but not in it shape (design in French). Future is not yet present. I just wanted it to be modern and clean. I like cars with shapes, like women. I like shapes. All the cars from the last ten years have an absolutely flat front end. This does not excite me.


What kind of cars do you like, from an aesthetical standpoint?
I like the Lamborghini Miura very much and the Lotus Elan of the end of 60s, beginning of 70s. I think it is one of the most pleasant cars to look at.


Which car impressed you most when you were young, ?
The Peugeot 202. I love the balance of it. Whatever the angle, it is beautiful. My father owned one and my brother did too, later. I also liked some of the Ferraris, the 955 500 Mondial, and Maseratis of this very time. And some Alfas of the beginning of the 60s whose name I cannot recall.


What about the Ford GT40? We mention it because the front end of the McLaren oddly looks like it…
The GT40? It is attractive but I would not put it in my favorite cars. Very aggressive. It has a nice shape, but I would not describe it as being well balanced. I liked it at this time, but there is a difference between liking and not helping to watch a car. The similarity with the GT40, by any means, was not intentional. When we finished the McLaren, we laughed about it…
Did you involve Formula 1 drivers in the design of this car?
Yes, but not for the dynamics aspect. We involve Jonathan Palmer very early for the ergonomics aspect. With him we developed the seats, pedals, gear shifting, visibility. He is experienced in fast driving and moreover he is a doctor which gives him a solid basis regarding whatever is related to comfort and visibility. We spent a lot of time on this. Probably even more than what a car manufacturer usually does.

Among all the supercars, which one is a true rival for the McLaren F1?
Except maybe the Jaguar XJ220, I can say without a risk that the car has not rival in the genuine meaning of the term. I think that “supercar” is not well used nowadays. In the 60s-70s, it was a Lamborghini Miura or Countach or a Ferrari Boxer. Nowadays, people call supercar Porsches, or Hondas. In my opinion, a supercar must be produced in limited quantity, at a very high level of quality, for a unique and very fast experience. If you took ten persons and asked them what a sports car is, they would all have different answers. But I do not think that for the person who purchases the McLaren, there is any doubt, whatever the price. Because there is no other car designed to carry passengers and luggage. Maybe the Jaguar can, but I am not aware of it. And even though it could, I think it is way too long and too heavy. If you want to buy a sports car, which is 2-meter wide, 5-meter long and weighs more than 1.5 tons, then it is not a sports car, it is a Grand Tourism car.


It seems that the project was originally thought for a V10…
At the very beginning we talked to Honda. The discussion was to know whether it was feasible to have a bigger version of the race engine. But to be usable on the road, it required changing all the parts. We concluded that it would be cheaper to develop a brand new engine. Then we said to ourselves: if we do a new engine, we will do a V10 or a V12, cubing 4.5 liters or even 5 liters.
Then I started talking with Paul Rosche because BMW Motorsport had done a nice effort for the V12 of the 850i. However, we could not just use an existing engine as ours is mounted in a very bizarre and demanding way. We wanted a very light, very short and brand new engine. We even considered making our own engine by contacting various british firms, but we could solve the ignition management which required at least 1 year of development. BMW got more and more interested. We provided them our specifications: I wanted that it looked like a sports car engine of the previous generation and produce at least 550 hp and 60 mkg, that was all. And they did it in a bit less than one year, only!


{to be followed}

I have added some questions/answers of GM's interview.

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-world/2010/11/26/having-clocked-up-15-million-miles-fred-finn-holds-the-official-world-record-for-most-miles-travelled-by-a-passenger-115875-22741262/#ixzz1h2MQ57KI

Came across another photo of Fred Finn with Concorde and the Clinic Model.

http://i40.tinypic.com/53wwid.jpg (http://www.saveconcordegroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Fred-Finn-Mclaren-F1.jpg)

Click to enlarge

>8^)
ER

Does anyone know why the got rid of the flood lights on the final production version? The only thing I see is to allow for brake cooling ducts

Very young Lord March with the clinic model at FOS '95

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9394/t829.jpg

From this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF3Fov9x294)video

Which one is this? XP3 or Clinic Model?

http://www.autogaleria.hu/autok/mclaren/f1-xp3-1993/mclaren_f1-xp3-1993_r3.jpg

That's the clinic model :)