Identifying Steering Clunk

I'm trying to figure out what's making a clunk in my steering wheel. I've tried to limit as to when it's making the noise, and as far as what I can figure it seems to do it while stationary and low speed maneouvers. While stationary I can move the wheel slightly (like 11:00 to 1:00) and it will make a clunking sound between turns, and it will also do it stationary when the wheel hits the full 360* rotation mark in either direction. While moving, it only seems to do it when I'm driving slowly and turning into somewhere, like a parking spot, usually requiring a bit of revolution in the wheel.

Now I've done some research and I can think of 3 possibilities. What seem to be the two less likely is tie-rod ends (which looked to be in ok shape when I did my front control arm bushings this last weekend) or possibly the steering gear. What I think is the most likely culprit is the Intermediate Steering Shaft which seems to plauge many GM W-Bodies. On the TSB's I see no mention of Grand Prix's in my generation (I have a 2001), but rather the 2004-2007 Grand Prix's.

Is it likely to assume from what I'm experiencing that this problem may be the ISS? If so, has anyone changed this out? I've found basic tutorials and it seems as though it's basically a nut/stud at one end and same for the other end, one being under the dash (inside the boot) and the other in the engine bay.

So, any comments or contributions to this matter?

Thanks.

For what it's worth, I went out and checked it some more, I can feel the tie rod *vibrate* as it clunks...I mean I can feel the clunk in the tie rod when I turn the wheel. It seems when it clunks (when I turn the wheel) the tie rod still moves normally, so the clunk doesn't seem to impede with the steering, in other words I don't think there's really any "play" in the steering wheel as of yet, just a clunk.

What is your current mileage?

A bad outer tie rod end is a common source of clunking depending on your mileage and how bad the roads you travel on are over the years. I recall we have old threads in history that mentions the possible intermediate steering shaft (ISS) clunk issue and applicable GM TSB(s). All you have to do is a search with the proper keywords. See one example below.

Click here (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=4036693&postcount=9)

My current mileage is 130,600km's (about 82000mi). I don't think any of the steering components have been changed. Besides disassembling the tie rod ends and checking for wear, is there any tell-tale signs of wear to the tie rod ends? I'm sure it's either tie rod ends or the ISS...I think steering gear is unlikely due to the lack of slop in the wheel.

Look for a torn rubber boot indicating whatever grease is there has been leaked out or contaminated. The factory outer tie rods do not have a grease fitting so premature wear at your mileage is not uncommon. You could remove the tie rod stud from the steering knuckle and do the finger test. If you can articulate (move) the stud with one finger then it is worn out. Will not affect alignment as long as you do not loosen the rod jamb nut.

Other method would be the 9 and 3 o'clock test. With only one wheel or side jacked up at a time grab with your hands. Make sure the steering is locked. See how much slop there is by observing. Sometimes you may feel a clunk or see excess freeplay. Also, though more expensive an alignment check at a shop may reveal a worn out tie rod end. The toe in and toe out figures would be hard to set or will change. In the end after replacing any steering component you will need a 4 point alignment.

Ok, thanks for the tips.

I tried the 3 and 9 o'clock method...I looked through the spokes at the tie rod end...it looks as though the stud moves SLIGHTLY within the knuckle although it does not make the clunk noise...but I would think any freeplay is not good...

*update*

Got a friend to move the wheel and I listened/checked for play...I'm not so sure it's the tie rod ends, they don't seem to have any play with the wheels on the ground...the sound still seems to originate from the center area of the vehicle, it has me thinking it still might be the ISS...

*update*

Got a friend to move the wheel and I listened/checked for play...I'm not so sure it's the tie rod ends, they don't seem to have any play with the wheels on the ground...the sound still seems to originate from the center area of the vehicle, it has me thinking it still might be the ISS...


Sounds like the ISS. What you can do is when you drive it, put your left foot up against the ISS and you should feel the vibration or clunk.(do not do this in traffic)

Well I set 'er in park and put my fingers INSIDE the boot (inside the car) to feel the shaft as I turned the wheel (erotic, eh?) and I'm pretty sure i can feel the vibration in the shaft, feels as though the shaft is the origin.

Has anyone tackled this in a 1997 to 2003 Grand Prix? I've seen tutorials for GM trucks, seems pretty basic. As I look under the dash, I see a boot, I'm sure there's a nut/bolt on the end of the shaft...the shaft I want is right below the (green?) piece? As for the other end, all I can see is a boot that runs VERTICALLY (inside the engine bay, against the firewall, it runs straight up and down)...I would assume the other bolt for the shaft is at the TOP of the boot (facing the hood?)...Or does the shaft has a swivel on it, I haven't seen this shaft for real myself.

For the record...can I still get the lube kit for it? Seems my dealer out here want $270 for a new shaft :( .... If I can get away with greasing it (even if I have to repeat it later)...I'd much rather spend 12 bucks (or more in Canadian moneys) to get er done rather than spend $270 on a shaft that will probably fail later anyway, as they seem to have been doing.

Thanks!

Err, guess I found this...looks to be sufficient, maybe worth a sticky?

http://www.colinkraft.com/shaft.php

So I have done the ISS (relubricated) and it didn't really seem to help anything. Today I finally noticed the sound seems to resonate from within the car at the passenger front floor near the firewall. I'm suspecting the tie rods, but I'm not sure if it's the inner or outer. I know the best way to check the outer is to remove the stud and check for play, but is there any tell-tail signs of a bad inner tie rod, or is that rather uncommon for our cars?

Tie rods are a good possibility and it is not uncommon for them to wear out depending on the roads you travel or mileage. With your mileage which isn't that bad inner would not be common but possible. Check and/or replace both outer tie rod ends first and then worry about the inner since they are harder to diagnose and replace. If the stuff is that bad it should have been detected with an alignment.

Sub frame bolts loose? Front lower control arm bushing bad?

Tie rods are a good possibility and it is not uncommon for them to wear out depending on the roads you travel or mileage. With your mileage which isn't that bad inner would not be common but possible. Check and/or replace both outer tie rod ends first and then worry about the inner since they are harder to diagnose and replace. If the stuff is that bad it should have been detected with an alignment.
Well I should be getting an alignment done, but I figure there's no point to getting it done now if I'll be changing a steering part anyway, might as well get what's broken fixed, then align. There seems to be a bit of play in the wheel as well, hard to give a measurement, but it's play when switching directions of turning...probably a few degrees. It seems like most of the noise comes from when that play is there...when you change steering from one direction to another, the play is evident, then when the play tightens, the wheel makes a clunk type sound. Then the clunk is gone, until you turn the wheel the other way, past the "section of play"...it's like something is loose. I did relubricate the ISS, although maybe not well enough. I'm going to check the tie rod ends pretty soon. I can also feel the vibration resonate in the brake pedal (possible due to the close location to the ISS).

Yeah I'm a bit stuck as to what the cause of this is...but from what i figure, the only possible culprits are tie rods (inner or outer), rack and pinion (at 133,000km's, it theoretically should not be that worn yet) or the ISS (possibly not lubed well enough).

I don't know if this changes anything but I noticed the car tends to try to steer when hitting bumps, like it wants to go off course, especially when turning, braking and hitting a bump at the same time, you can feel the wheel jerk. To me that sounds definately like a tie rod. I thought it was maybe because I switched over to 18" wheels but I think it may have just started doing that before I swapped wheels.


Sub frame bolts loose? Front lower control arm bushing bad?
I dunno about loose sub frame bolts, this seems to be an item of the direct steering system causing this. I just changed the front lower control arm bushings very recently and they are installed correctly.

So it's entirely or partly due to my passenger outer tie rod end...I didn't see the play in it before...maybe it wore more because now I can see play in it with the 3 and 9 o'clock wiggle, and when i got someone into the driver's seat and i watched when they turned it, you can see visible play and hear the clunk...it wasn't like that before...maybe the ISS was PARTLY to blame as well.

I figure I might as well change both tie rod ends as they're prone to failing and if one failed, the other SHOULD follow suit. Once it's changed, I'll update as to whether that fixed it or not.

Outer tie rods are now both changed and greased. Unfortunately, the noise is still there. The new ends did tighten the steering slightly as the passenger end was very bad. The clunk noise is still evident from within the car, the wheel still has very slight play and if you try the 3 and 9 shake with the tire, if you really reef on it, you can hear a "thud" from the center of the car.

Is it normal for the inner tie rods to spin? I noticed this when I was removing the outer tie rods...it's a ball joint at the end, so it should spin, right?

Here's some videos, maybe this might help out. If there's no luck here, I guess I'll have to spring for a front end inspection. I don't want to fix what's not broken.

Sorry for the crashing noises when I move the camera, the mic is VERY sensitive.


This is the amount of steering play I have (sound does not show up while testing this, this is just the play)

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/Crunkmethods/?action=view&current=MOV00219.flv



This is the noise within the interior, engine off. @ wheel, above wheel, near driver floor, near passenger floor. Ignore the cracking noises, that's the interior, it's the deeper sounding clunk.

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/Crunkmethods/?action=view&current=MOV00220.flv



Noise while turning the steering wheel, driver's side

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/Crunkmethods/?action=view&current=MOV00221.flv



Same, at passenger side

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/Crunkmethods/?action=view&current=MOV00222.flv



Noise with wheel jacked up, while I turn 3 and 9 oclock, sounds to be coming from steering, not bearings...

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/Crunkmethods/?action=view&current=MOV00225.flv



Same as video above, but underneath the car

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/Crunkmethods/?action=view&current=MOV00226.flv

I took it in and they say the most likely cause of my trouble is my shot driver's side wheel bearing. They say any play in my wheel is not enough to even bother with and by the way it drove on the test drive they pretty much ruled out anything steering related. Upper strut mounts were ok too.

I guess I'll just price out some front bearings and be done with it...I'm too OCD and I tend to think I can make an old car new. I guess I'll just learn to live with it, it's really not THAT bad.

The bottom line is how is it in realworld driving. The 18" inch wheels will exacerbate things. When I weighed mine with the tires versus stock I saw approximately 3-4 lbs more per wheel. Also, I installed a camber kit since the camber was slightly out of specs. But I have no vibrations or wheel shimmy even up to high speeds.

Can't tell by your videos but when you did the 3 and 9 test on the front end was either wheel jacked up or were the wheels on the ground?

BTW - Both of my front hubs were replaced way before I ever did the wheel/tire upgrade.

The wheel as off the ground. I actually found out the "thump" was because I had the steering locked, and it was thumping on the lock. I jacked up the tire with the bad bearing today and turned the wheel...with the wheel off the ground it still has the free play and makes the clunk...when you feel the ISS while doing this you can feel it in the shaft. Since the problem is so minute though I don't think I'm really going to bother with it...the clunk sound is fairly quiet and the slop in the steering is so little it's not really causing any difficulty with drivability. I think I'll just live with it...hell maybe it's kinda normal...but it's still driving me nuts anyway.

If I were to explain it, I would say it sounds like the clunk is when the steering "catches" after the point of free play. The free play is not in the upper steering or the upper portion of the ISS, if anything it's the lower U-joint, rack and pinion or inner tie rod ends.

I keep hearing about idler arms and such, we don't have those on rack an pinion, do we?

I keep hearing about idler arms and such, we don't have those on rack an pinion, do we?

Nope not on a rack and pinion system. There is a pre-load adjustment that can be done but I don't think it is applicable to your situation.

Meh, well I'll definately be changing at least one of the bad wheel bearings, if not just doing both sides...

Maybe when I take the car in for an alignment (which had better be soon, the wheel is a little off center since I changed the outer tie rods, lol) they can maybe find something else with the steering.