HHO? Anyone else think of trying electrolysis?

Ive just been reading around. Lookin for better ideas on improving gas milage. I was thinking of building a electrolysis water seperator to supplement the air intake? Practical? And also where would be the best place to duct the HHxO in?

What car, engine, transmission?

Yeah forgot those details. Its a 1996 F. T-bird lx 4.6L v8 w. auto tranny. I just done alittle bit of research on subject of using the water seperation. Some debated that the energy to seperate the H2O into 2H x O isnt worth the drag caused by the alternator's extra work to power it. But after talkin to some "engineers" (other forums) and doing some more reading myself, found that yes the energy equations dont seem to make sense that it'd be more benifitial, but the perfect combination of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen create a very powerful combustion additive in the chambers... I'm not trying sound like an expert, nor am I. Just a curious minded learner trying to save some money on gas, and have a fun doin work on my car:popcorn: any input would help. Thanks for the help

IMO, if it was a practical way to increase mileage, the industry would be all over it by now. No harm trying (except to your wallet) to gain knowledge in the subject though. I noticed some adds are at the bottom of the page so try it out and come back and let us know how you make out. I for one will be interested in your results. Good luck with it.

Theres been alot of knowledge about this since the 1960s but never caught on. I'm fairly confident on the experiment having some success. Its a cheap build and Ima tinker nut. Ill fill in on the progress though. Any more input would be great. Just enjoy new subjects

Internal combustion engines cannot use all the energy released by burning fuel, be it gasoline, hydrogen, etc. Much of it is lost in thermodynamic inefficiencies, such as through the cooling system, out the exhaust as hot gas etc.

Therefore, you will not reclaim all the energy you use in separating the H and the O, resulting in a net decrease in fuel economy.

Oh I understand the fact that there is energy loss in seperating the atomic bonds. But how many tests have been done to show that if applied to a vehicles engine is it inefficient? I'm merely going to experiment with it. The energy source is the battery and the batteries energy is charged and supplied by the alternator which in turn is supplied by the engine itself. Does the extra drag from the harder working alternator offset any gains made from supplementing fuel with "Brown's Gas"? Thats what Im curious to find out. Ive read many equations saying is wont work, some claiming it does. But haven't really seen anything where I see a test of mpg before and after...something I find legit anyways.

Ive got a few more weeks before I'll have my tbird road worthy and then I'll start a new thread disscussing my results. Thanks for the input though.

ps. if any knows where I can get a replacement sunroof glass for my tbird, please let me know.

Try this site. http://www.car-part.com/index.htm

Thanks for the site...expensive sunroof glass though

Sunroof Glass - Salvage yard. New stuff from a glass company is quite expensive. Electrolysis... not worth the effort unless you just want bragging rights for increasing measured MPG by a point or so. It's hard to improve much on closed loop performance without actually changing valve timing along with ignition timing for your specific workload. Run the lightest weight oil you dare in the motor, trans and differential. (I.e. have a summer oil, and a winter oil rather than rely on multi-grade) Make sure your O/2 sensors are fresh and responsive. Make sure the air filter is flowing well. Cut down on restrictions in the exhaust system. If you do all that, you may gain 3 - 4 mpg points depending on how bad it is now. Of course the cost of doing all that will take forever to be paid back in your MPG savings unless you drive a ton of miles in closed loop.

aphaze, have you built and installed your system yet? After viewing youtube videos, a combustible gas is being generated by these systems. The question seems to be at what energy cost. Some experimenters are drawing 30 amps DC. This is a fair amount of power, probably about 1/2 hp. Which got me thinking why not use an ignition coil to step up volts and reduce amps. A simple lawnmower coil powered by a rotating magnet field, very little drag. It also appears that the O2 sensor output voltage has to be modifed so the PCM won't think the engine is running to lean and thus calling for more gasoline. Personally I don't see the big three coming up with the next generation of alternative vehicle, it will be some guys in their garages. Remember, even the initial hybrid vehicles were drastically improved by guys in their garages by adding the plug in feature.

No I have not. Sorry. Just trying to the tbird in running condition first. Ive been talking to a family friend who is a 20+yr electrician/auto/everything that includes anything. He was talking to me about the increase in electrical frequency would increase the electrical power and reduce the amount dragged off the battery. Also did some experiments with just one large container with larger anthodes and cathodes vs. a series of smaller containers. I found that the bubbles/min/amp were much larger in series of smaller containers, also found that temperature effects the b/m/a. The amps dont have to be too high to run the system either. Off a 12v battery, you can run a series of 6-12 containers easily with effective output, anything more the amps are too low per container. Ill do a more indepth update on how this proceeds. But first I need my baby runnin right.


Puttin the question out there. Anyone know anything I could be doing wrong about my brakes. Put new calipers, rotors and pads and started bleeding. In order .. Front pas.-Front driver-Back driver-Back pas. and for the back I turned on the ignition *didnt start engine tho* bc I have ABS...after bleeding all...still shitty brakes..so then I went and gravity bled them all again for an hr in the same order.*question* do i need to turn the ignition on again for gravity bleeding? This is just frustrating, I've bleed them all a dozen times it seems and my brakes still bad...by bad, I mean, they work but it takes an extra 20ft to completely stop<not good>. Please help so I can further the project.

You are suppose to bleed from the farthest away first! Like right rear,left rear, right front then left front. Left being driver side.

The haynes manual I bought abit ago, said to do in the order I stated. But hell I give it a go. Thanks. Its just seemed like a bled the system so many ways so many times (4 large bottles worth)

HHO takes a lot of energy to produce, and the amount of energy that can be retrieved is not greater than the amount introduced. That is, the energy efficiency of water electrolysis is less than 100%.

Also, water torches are used to cut steel. I'm not sure what that does to an engine, but my initial instinct is that I'm not so sure I'd do this to my car.

With all that said, be sure to report back what you find!

--Mark

http://www.marksatterfield.com

HHO takes a lot of energy to produce, and the amount of energy that can be retrieved is not greater than the amount introduced. That is, the energy efficiency of water electrolysis is less than 100%.

Also, water torches are used to cut steel. I'm not sure what that does to an engine, but my initial instinct is that I'm not so sure I'd do this to my car.

With all that said, be sure to report back what you find!

--Mark

http://www.marksatterfield.com
I'm not sure what you are meaning by "water torches", the only things I've seen are like the one used on the "American Chopper" TV show; that is a "Water Jet" cutting system which uses grit (sand like) and extreme high water pressure to make clean cuts in metal. Not what you'd want in your engine, but the HHO system is WAY less than that!

Hi, thanks for writing.

I've not used an oxyhydrogen torch ("A water torch is a kind of oxyhydrogen torch, that is fed by oxygen and hydrogen generated on demand by water electrolysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_electrolysis)") but from what I've read they produce very hot flames. There is a nice writeup on Wikipedia about oxyhydrogen torches. According to the Wiki article "The maximum temperature of about 2800 °C is achieved with a pure stoichiometric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometric) mixture, about 700 degrees hotter than a hydrogen flame in air.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen#cite_note-3)"

I'm thinking I'll stick with my 18~20 mpg in the city and 28 mpg on the highway for now... :)

--Mark

http://www.marksatterfield.com

Footnote: Both quotes are from the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen

Well, if you use the hydrogen and burn that as fuel through the process of electrolysis. This porcess is efficient. Your 12 volt car battery is sufficient to run the hho generator and produce enough hydrogen to to increase your mpg output. So, this is a very efficient process if done correctly. Try http://www.convert2hybrid.com
I am trying my best to help people reduce emission and decrease Global Warming.

Well, if you use the hydrogen and burn that as fuel through the process of electrolysis. This porcess is efficient. Your 12 volt car battery is sufficient to run the hho generator and produce enough hydrogen to to increase your mpg output. So, this is a very efficient process if done correctly. Try http://www.convert2hybrid.com
I am trying my best to help people reduce emission and decrease Global Warming.

No, you're trying your best to get rich by scamming people with a snake oil scheme to sell a useless product which does nothing.

Well truth is that I manage to get an increase of 50% on my gas milage pulling round bout 15A supplying 1L per minute. I also managed to burn my lp gas stove with +- 180W which is less then 1/4 of the power my electric stove use. So it deffnitely works. And it deffinitely worth it. I build my cells with 30 US $ and it saving me 30 $ every month. I ran it on my nissan 1400 for 50 000 km with no negative side affects what so ever. One Golf I did use to over heat, now the fan is not even connected. Think about it.