Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

I read Google News - Science & Technology section.
It changes each day....

http://news.google.com/nwshp?tab=wn&ned=us&topic=t

Today a blurb came up about making Ethanol in one's own Backyard....HA !
But - if it were it possible....

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=backyard-ethanol-brewers
http://www.news.com/2300-13833_3-6239196.html?tag=nefd.gallery
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/05/make-your-own-e.html

However - the question came to mind...if oil gets so high in price that people
actually would try making ethanol from "Rubbish" - kitchen plant material,
grass clippings, tree leaves, pig dump, whatever would FERMENT....

Could one get the wondrous Geo Metro to run on such stuff...?

Not a dumb question what with us having to pay Gawd Awful prices for gasoline!

DoctorBill

BTW - Thank you, all you Environmentalists who've stopped all new refinery
construction, oil drilling, oil exploration, nuclear power plant construction -
your efforts may take us back to the Stone Age...for everyone except you
of course....

Not really unless you want to kill the metro in a short time.
The Ethanol is highly corossive and it will destroy the fuel injection components in no time gaskets and all, you have to retrofit the entire fuel delivery system.
In Europe alot of cars were retrofited thru a very smart and easy to install kit to run on methane gas, the kits were in the $500 range , here you can't find them courtesy of the big oil lobby claiming that there is a big danger of blowing up, in Europe there is no instance not a single one of explosion, they even sell kits to refuel the tank from the home gas line.
If you go to Home Depot, Lowes and other huge wharehouses you will see that the lifters runs on natural gas and the reason is that is cheap, run 99% clean with no gases and is healthy in closed enviroments.
Better look into that I am trying for a long time but the last kit I ordered from Europe got stoped at the customs and sent back.
BTW you can run even from the barbeque tank to.
Also for 10k I better buy another car, how long it will take to save by breaking even ?

Ethanol is currently about a buck a gallon cheaper than unleaded. Lets see $10,000, that would be 10,000 gallons of fuel to make up that dollar per gallon. If you get 30 miles to the gallon then that would be about 300,000 miles. If you drive 20,000 miles per year that would be pay back in 15 years give or take a day. What do you think at this point?

Ethanol is a buck cheaper, but it only has 60% as much energy as gasoline, what's the point? You end up spending the same amount, but refuelling twice as often.

As long as we keep killing Muslims the intellectual think tank and political powerhouse Saudi Arabia they will continue to look for new ways to make life tough for the infidels. Currently the most effective economic warfare is to bankrupt the infidels economy by applying a tax in the form of higher energy cost. You are wise to expect fuel at a minimum of $6-$10 per gallon over the life of the cars on the road today. In addition new production like the TaTa Nano at $2500 claiming 50 mpg will put millions of new cars on the road in developing economies like China, India and Brazil etc. this increased demand will keep fuel prices from back sliding. As the oil based fuel goes up technically so will the alternatives this is already one of the complains with corn based ethanol it is driving up the price of corn used for food add to that excessive demand in the future as a fuel and its cost advantage may disappear. The Geo Metropolitano 1.0L is an economically stealth piece of equipment that lives in a nitch under the large car manufacturers profitability threshold as well as the irresponsible resource consumption well under the 1940s image of what a car should be. There are several versions of the Geo that are full electric conversions I always wondered as an option to converting the fuel using a combination electric and gas design. There are Hypebrids like Prius on the market but they are just gimmicks to skim the cash off fuel savings up front and plow it back to the car manufacturer given the car price. Good you are looking for options and always keep in mind during hard time fuel rationing is a possibility down the line.

sixseas dude overall you stray away from the subject, if I remember well the muslims Koran says that you have,,to spread the muslim religion thru the power of the sword" so don't even try to make us feel guilty.
We are looking for solutions not political reasons, do you have a technical oppinion you want to share with us?

First off -

SixSeas - try using punctuation and some carriage returns to make your comments
more readable!

Will Help and Woodie83 -
This was a question based on Gasoline continuing to go up in price....

Your arguments kill all endeavors to find new sources of fuel....based on the
fact that it costs too much to do NOW !
Ethanol, BioDiesel, Electric, Rubber Bands, Guinea Pigs on a wheel...all need looking into!

Assuming that Gas does continue to go up in price and doesn't come back down,
and that folks come up with ways to make ETHANOL economically, could we get
the Metro to run on it?

Use your imagination....

Second -

Don't get me started on Oil and Muslims....especially the latter.

I might even go off on Environmentalists - who ARE causing this ENTIRE problem
by taking control of Congress and Stonewalling the new construction of gasoline
refineries and Nuclear Power Plants via ASSININE EPA roadblocks set up by the
fools in our Congress.

Then stopping ALL drilling and exploring for Oil because it might inconvenience
some damned Deer or Tick species in some remote area uninhabitable by humans.

We have more oil than we know what to do with! The oil field in Montana and Southern
Canada is about 40 times LARGER than they thought. Crude is not the problem.

Constipation of Conversion to Gasoline is the problem.

Then of course is the CO2 - Greenhouse Gas problem - even ETHANOL won't fix that.

Third -

As everyone SHOULD know, our electricity is made essentially by burning COAL -
which is one big major polluter.

So electric cars are a cruel joke on silly, unthinking do-good environmentalist
soccer-moms who are fool enough to think it is CLEAN and GREEN...Lord!

"Sounds like a good idea" is all I ever hear from all the Kalifornians who left
that state to escape the idiotic laws being enacted there, but bring those
dumb laws with them to institute in our State.

I don't know anyone who wants ex-Kalifornians to come to their State....except
maybe Real Estate Agents who make the 7% commission when they buy a Huge House from
the money they made selling their inflated house in Kalifornia.

Go back to California, you idiots and leave my State alone!

See! You got me started....darn! But I'm all better now....

DoctorBill

I have no interest in getting politically involved here.

I would like to share a novice idea however, and criticize at will...

I think electrically powered cars are the answer provided two prerequisites are met:

A) Better battery technology, because current batteries offer poor range and are extensively taxing on the environment.

B) The electricity used to 'charge' the cars batteries comes from a back-yard solar source. Be it clumsy and relatively inefficient solar panels, or a recent and new technology we can expect to see surface, which is a highly efficient solar film.

Solar energy is already there, if we could harness 2% of the solar radiation in our back yards a day, we'd all be set... we could power our cars and our houses... it's only a matter of developing the technology.

-MechanicMatt

For what it is worth, 91Caprice9c1, I agree completely with you!

Electric cars are the answer - it is just that recharging them with normal household 110 or 220 volts
is a lie - you are burning COAL to run the car - with tremendously bad efficiency added on!

Where I live, about 33% of the time we have strong winds that each house
could use to recharge a car's batteries.

A small car - like a '93 Metro - not some 3,000 pound four door, trailer hauling SUV
type of vehicle.

But the Wind Mills would be considered "Ugly" and would disturb the Willow Tit's
and Hedge Sparrow's Spring Mating activities...

We could have Nuclear Powered Electricity - clean and pure - if we could build
the power plants w/o endless expensive and constipating Red Tape.

Battery advances and Solar Cell advances would be there if we threw money
at the Scientists like we do for finding new weapons of war....

Everything, but everything is "political" these days. Nothing is immune.

If by some chance it wasn't 'political", the media would make sure it became political.

So we have to talk about these things and get pissed when nothing is done.
If you don't "get political", nothing is done.

Even for a Geo Metro - the squeaky wheel gets oiled.

DoctorBill

After running Sprint then Metro 1.0Ls on my 2150 mile commute since 1987. I’ve looked at almost every conversion from natural gas to burger grease. The Metro’s original design is pleasing and economically unique so it will let you cruise right past today’s complex world of auto company, political, and energy industries manipulation at the most reasonable cost.

In addition to artificial manipulation the forces of supply and demand for fuel by its nature will bid up alternative fuels so if your 1.0L consumption is low it’s your best defense burning any fuel. You already have tremendous economic advantage over the old 1940s design guzzlers. Watch Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) they are a lobbying powerhouse and the largest producers of Ethanol they seek large profits.

I did go after one Metro conversion and still regret missing. It was at Fathers Joes auction in the early 1990s. (Father Joes is the huge auction for cars donated to Catholic Charities in Nevada, California and Arizona sold to Mexico) I found a conversion by an engineer in Arizona, the back seat and luggage area nicely converted to hold batteries. Rear wheels were run by small electric motors his spec sheet said batteries would power the Metro to 55 mph for 70 miles or you could reverse with a pedal switch while downhill or running the gas 1.0L engine and charge the bank of batteries. It bid way past what I had to $12500 at a time new Metros sold for about $8 to $10k. Still wonder if it was capable of 75 maybe even 100 mpg?

Before undertaking any conversion, and risk your car, or put thousands dollars in time and money converting only to find a marginal gain study the options carefully before opening the tool box. Any fuel we burn has complex global pricing pressures so the low consumption of the 1.0L is still your best way slip right past the gotcha boys.

Very interesting SixSeas.

Whatever one attempts to use to power an automobile to 55 mph is going to

1. Produce Heat (who cares?)

2. Pollute with some Carbon Dioxide - CO2

....except for Electric or Hydrogen if made w/o burning something.

So the answer to no pollution is -

Nuclear Power (including Fusion if it ever can be developed)
or
Wind / Tidal Power
or
Sunlight
or
Geothermal

Any of the above can recharge a battery or make Hydrogen cleanly.

So all you Environmentalist Nay Sayers, step aside for the power sources listed
above and actually encourage them - make some kind of positive contribution!

Once we populate the Earth to 2 or 3 or 4 times the present numbers, we will
not be able to use "Fossil Fuel" due to Carbon Dioxide levels causing Global Warming.

Unless some totally new technology appears (vacuum energy or...???) to replace
burning carbon compounds, we will not be able to drive automobiles around or
trucks or aircraft in any appreciable numbers, or we will live in a smog filled,
hot and uninhabitable world. The above exceptions notwithstanding.

I wonder what the next 100 years holds for us?

Our children are in for some tough times.

I have faith that we humans will be able to figure it out, though.

"Necessity is the mother of invention."

DoctorBill

I don't know how old every boby is in this particular forum but I am old enough to remember something that sounds exactly like todays news:

I remember making $ 1.25 an hour and paying $ .35 for a gallon of gas. That was 25% of an hours wage. Today, if you make $ 16.00 an hour and pay $ 4.00 per gallon, you still pay 25% of an hours wage.

Sounds like the more we change, the more we stay the same!!!

Most factory workers make more than that these days. Plumbers, electricians and other skilled trades do alot better. If you can afford expensive sound systems, wheels, low riders etc... then gas should not be a problem expense unless you like a nice sounding, good looking yard decoration.

When your wants out weigh your needs, you probably need to take the bus anyway.

My Boss (before I was laid off in '99 at 55 years of age), used to wax philosophical
and I, being a captive audience, had to set there and listen to him.

He said the worst thing that happened to women was that they wanted to go out
and work....!

He said that once women started working, en mass, the income of households nearly doubled (more or less).
He said that this would cause prices to double and then women would have to work!.

Damn - I hate to say it but I think he was right!

A single income household is suffering these days.

The price of a good car has more than doubled as have home prices.
I bought a nice two bedroom home in 1982 for $35,000 - now a Suburban costs more than that!

That is inflation....

More money (disposable income), the more prices go up.

How bad can it get?

I lived in Argentina from 1974 to 1977 and saw inflation of 30% per month!
People bought American Dollars on payday just to keep the value of their paycheck constant
while they spent it over the month.

If you haven't traveled abroad, you have no idea how well off we are in America!
......and we piss and moan and bitch and complain about how bad off we are!

Does anyone know the price of Gasoline in Mexico or Latin America right now?

DoctorBill

PS - Will Help - I remember coming home from High School in the early 1960's and buying
a McDonald's Hamburger (15¢) and Fries (10¢) for a quarter !

My Dad thought it was too expensive!

A pack of Coffin Nails was 28¢ if I remember - of course I wouldn't know - never smoked....

Mexico is about 5 cents cheaper than we are, Brazil is over $6.00, Venezuela is around twenty cents a gallon. Brazil and Venezuela share a border, go figure. Most of Europe is over $9.00. Sierra Leone is over $18.00 and Nigeria is around $.50

Woodie93 -

Are you taking into account that other countries use the per Liter price?

Then there is the currency conversion....

A US Gallon is about 3.8 Liters!

DoctorBill

Doctor Bill, I agree there are very good sources of energy available and many yet to be developed . These energy sources should have been exploited after the fuel crisis of the 1970s. Our government likely because of special interest funding chose to shelve almost every alternative until ADM lobbied heavily for its portion of the fuel dollar pushing Ethenol into our fuel system.

I don’t expect any changes in the near future. They will ease us up and over $4 a gallon and go for $5 $6…$12 a gallon and so on. That is okay I guess if we are willing to accept a life as a servant to the Saudi Sheetheads who buy our rulers and drive our economy and make decisions on the quality of our lives.

The people who run the country, the Republicans and Democrates parties, both bought and paid to turn a blind eye and deaf ear to anything that would disrupt the Saudi oil party will try their best to keep things as they are. Note the 125 million dollar mansion Sheek Bandar just sold in Colorado and the others in Florida New York and California. The guzzler boys paid for that lavish life style while they themselves are likely still wrestling with the concept of rent or house and car payments. The oily boy party will go on given the pitiful choice of yes big oil type rulers the ruling parties have selected for us to vote for. You have a vote but like a company owned and funded union you can vote for the big oil or for big oil its your choice. Billions of dollars in funding from special interests including the big oily boys have flushed away potentially hundreds of strong competing candidates and their parties who may dare to challenge the neglect of our environment and rapidly deteriorating strength of our country.

We appear to be left to our own devices. The 1.0L power plant appears to be the most efficient reliable and practical tool we have to combat a rough future with runaway fuel prices and possible shortages.

Interesting to compare the price of gas across political borders by equivalent purchasing power. For example Mexico and the US where gas is priced about the same generally speaking. A GS 12 federal agent earns $70000 annually and a Mexican federal agent earns $4500 annually gas is priced at roughly $4.00 along the northern states the after you factor out Litros vs US gallons.

The US agent earns 15.6x ($70k/$4.5k) more than the Mexican agent. That means at $4.00 per gallon the Mexican agent pays in time spent working $62.40 per gallon. That’s why the say Icarumba all the time

Yes Doc, those were all dollars per gallon. As Sixseas has pointed out, not a very good comparison if some people are making $20 per hour and some are making a nickel per hour.

Now you know why the illegals are walking across the borders and not driving 4X4's across.

They drank up all the Ethenol in the Tequila now they have to hoof it. I always thought they took over this country to take our 1.0L engines and our girls and beer. Now I know they are pissed off because we stole their invention. We call a siesta a power nap that made them mad. I will be conducting extensive research on siestas and power naps to determine if we are infringing on their idea.

A friend sent me this relating to Ethenol. I still think the best defense is the 1.0L these new smart cars are 20 year old technology with a new price tag, HypeBids are just a giming to skim cash, Ethenal is an attempt to shit the gtcha from the sheetheads to ADM but at least they are domestically owned but I wonder now.

Source: CNET
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-10863_7-6867794-4.html?tag=tnav


GM markets many of its cars as flexible fuel vehicles, meaning they can run on a fuel mixture up to 85 percent ethanol and just 15 percent gasoline, referred to as E85. Ethanol is an alcohol commonly produced from corn in the United States and sugar cane in other parts of the world. Ethanol is also widely used as an additive to gasoline. E10 is a mix of 90 percent gasoline and 10 percent ethanol, while E100 is 100 percent ethanol. Most cars can run on E10, and many state governments have mandated its use, as the 10 percent ethanol works as an oxygenate, helping the fuel burn more completely and causing fewer emissions.
GM Yukon
GM has 11 2008 models that can run on E85.

Burning ethanol as a fuel reduces carbon dioxide emissions by 21 percent over gasoline and releases no particulate matter. However, burning ethanol creates more ozone, leading to smog and potentially more respiratory health problems. Studies on ethanol emissions are ongoing. Ethanol also has less energy density than gasoline, so a car running on E85 gets worse mileage than the same car running on E10.

Another downside to ethanol is that, because the fuel is made from corn and other food crops, heavy demand for ethanol drives up food prices. Because global food prices are rising, the trade-off is problematic. Current research into cellulosic ethanol made of grasses or even trash seems poised to help ease this controversy.

In the United States, Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz, Mazda, and Nissan sell cars that can run on ethanol mixes up to E85. The National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition hosts a map on its Web site showing the locations of E85 stations around the country.

And again why don't we try to make cars who run on methane gas or natural gas?
8 years ago at Chicago Auto Show a car caught everybody's attention it was a Dodge Challenger concept who runs on natural gas, it was breathtaking as design and performance.
Also as I stated natural gas engine is 99.9% clean, and you have almost an unlimited supply, the gas can be made from manure even garbage.

The ethanol and natural gas are both jokes.

I've got a lot of GM pride but I don't think they've done a good thing investing themselves so heavily in the whole ethanol bit. Sixseas brought up a big con - fuel economy drops. And you are still going to produce carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide, as DoctorBill mentioned earlier, is released anytime you burn an organic (carbon based) compound. Not to mention ozone. If we start producing Ozone, it wont patch up the ozone layer, it wont just rise up and be this out of the way bi-product, it will stay in the air we breathe and ozone is nasty stuff.

The problem with natural gas is infrastructure. Natural gas must be stored and dispensed under pressure - compressed. Retrofitting gas stations and fuel systems in production automobiles would cost way more than its end worth as it too will produce carbon dioxide. Yes, it can be fermented (methane), but thats even more infrastructure change and cost, and the natural reserves we have of it are finite, just like our reserves of crude oil.

And with either of these options we still deal with the short-comings of the internal combustion engine. I grew up loving machines, cars, and the internal combustion engine, but it must change. Gasoline, LNG, CNG, Ethanol - they all use the internal combustion engine which means: Oil for engine lubrication, coolant (ethylene glycol - nasty stuff), regular maintenance, inherent inefficiencies like heat, an ideal engine speed operation (camshaft design is always a compromise, even with variable valve timing).

Conversely, electric motors have 100% of their designed torque available from a stop, they produce less heat (waste), don't require oil changes or coolant flushes, or leaky gaskets, and brushless motors require almost no maintenance at all short of the occasional bearing swap.

There are just too damn many of us these days to consume things like people did fifty years ago. Electric is the answer, save two major problems: Range (battery capacity), and infrastructure (synthesizing the electricity from solar/wind/geothermal etc..).

-MechanicMatt

I think you hit the problem right on the head most people who consume cars are doing so with a 50 year old idea in mind kept alive by billions of dollars of advertising. I love the for ad here in Northern Illinois for SUVs shows a guy all dressed like he could break out into song at any moment standing by a huge SUV. He says it may cost a little more to drive “but we can afford it” Gotcha the poor fool if you can afford $4 it will go to $8 if you can afford $8 it will go to $16 and so on. Saudis just love these guys.

I agree electric is the way to go high torque low maintenance very efficient energy conversion compared to the internal combustion engine. Trouble is with all the new technology available it’s been pitifully under explored and unsupported in the field as a alternative car fuel.

One replacement option I was tossing over is the evolutionary cousin of the Metro running around Baja the Chevrolet Chebby. I’ve seem many in Baja since about 1998 owners say highly reliable 50 mpg A/C but no automatico only 5 speedo. They sold new in 2000 around $6900 used now about $2000 US pollution standards, but not DoT standards. They are tastefully designed with headroom for the Sunday sombrero and a donkey hitch on the front for added fuel economy. They do meet US road ability standards as they will issue a pass for them only with Mexican plates and they can use the centuri lane at customs so they are pre approved but not exportable. When I get back home to San Diego I may take a closer look at the 2008 models. If it were possible to get a partial electric conversion a SCCA approved roll cage it may be able to run as an alternate fuel vehicle the gas engine could be used to power and charge at high speeds at low speeds just set back take a swig of ethanol can cruse around town on electric?

Anything besides gasoline is going to take changing the infrastructure big time!

If it is Ethanol - then changing the raw material source (hideous agricultural implications!),
changing the manufacturing methodology and equipment - the delivery infrastucture
can remain essentially unchanged.

The US Gubment will have fits with their anal desire to tax a consumable fuel!
Imagine ethanol available to drink for pennies.....(?)
Talk about getting pickled!

If it is Hydrogen - the entire infrastructure will have to be changed with gross
implications for manufacturing (w/o burning carbon based coal or oil),
delivery (dangerous high pressure tanks or safe metal hydride containers), and
complete engine specifications changes.

If Electric - total change over to non-hydrocarbon, non-combustion "motors"
and continually upgrading battery technology and slow chargeup times.
Unless they can develop "large capacitor" based electric storage systems.

Electric systems presents its own dangers - electrocution, massive shorting
of batteries (explosions), corrosion ad nausium...etc.

The next few generations will face massive changes just as our Grandparents
lived thru "horse and buggy" to automobiles and flying in the air.

What a change the old folks saw!

Six guns and Indians all the way to Spaceflight even!

You have no idea how fascinating the next 50 years will be!

DoctorBill

I just filled my gas tank at COSTCO about three hours ago in Spokane, WA.

$3.84 per Gallon.

Did my math in my glovebox notebook and came up with 49.06 mpg !

Give or take 1 mpg for error in filling the tank to the same place - that ain't half damn bad Folks!

Let's see a Hybrid beat that!

The following is my ranting about how totally freaking Insane our country's "leaders" are....
Please don't read it.

On the way home, I listened to Glen Beck on the AM talk about the meat brained Congressmen
questioning Oil Execs about why gas prices are so high.
Here is the transcript of that particular broadcast:
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/10340/
Each Congressman gets paid Many Thousands of $$ for being on those Useless Congressional
"Panels" and the Congressmen are THE DIRECT CAUSE of the problems!

No questions about why - just "why are you dealing with Burmese Leaders and
how much are you contributing to the Burmese flood plight?"

One Congressman was pissed that Exxon's CEO made 22 Million in wages? Matt Damon, Angelina
Jolie, Nickolas Cage, George Clooney - all make more than that each year for a single crap movie!
The CEO runs the biggest Corp in the world!

Not one offered that all oil companies have to buy oil from Foreign countries and OPEC
because the Meat Brained Congress won't allow us to drill OUR OWN FREAKING OIL!

Or that the won't allow any new refineries to be built to replace the ones that are wearing out
or are outdated technologically.

Or that none of our Oil Companies can drill off the Coasts, but that Foreign Oil Companies are allowed
to drill there and THEN sell us our own oil later. They don't need to follow Environmental laws - but we do.

Or that the Profit Margin for Exxon was 8% last year. THE Biggest Corp in the world makes Billions,
but when the profit margin is calculated by dividing by its running costs, it is no higher than the average US business.....

Or that Oil Corporations are owned by their investors (stock) like me who rely on the stock for their IRA's
and retirement fund money thru Investment Houses and Mutual Funds.

I think we are being fed a tub of crap about oil by Congressmen who are so hideously ignorant and socialistic that
they can't or won't understand Capitalism.

But then we elect them....we get what we put into Washington, DC. and why are they usually rich and socialistic?

One Senator was pissed that it cost him $60 to fill his SUV's gas tank! HIS SUV! You and
I are supposed to be driving little gas saving hybrids!

Just keep them Caribou and Owls and Frogs happy folks, while you pay $5 and up a gallon
to warm your houses in winter and drive your cars and ship your food....the Caribou love you!

Let's all sing Coomiyah....and send our money over to OPEC. Don't eat meat! Don't smoke. Don't drink.
Don't cuss. Just watch "Whos the Next Supermodel" and "American Idol" and "Dancing with the Stars."
We need another politician......who knows nothing, but who will "change everything".

When OPEC Oil Producers buy GM and FORD with all those Trillions in oil money, they will buy the same
Senators who are screwing us over now and THEN Alaska's oil will be drilled - for OPEC - who will own it!

What do you think the Foreign Oil types are doing with all those trillions of dollars - hmmm?
Just keeping it in the bank? Burying it in the sand?

The company I was laid off from in 1999 has just now been bought by an INDIAN pharmaceutical Corporation.
INDIAN! from India....Jesus! A once third world country!

Something strange is going on. We are being lied to and hustled by media who all say
the same thing! THAT is what is strange. Is the US Media owned by foreigners?
Being used to manipulate us? Slowly like water dripping on rock...wearing us away? Laugh it up!

We are so damned stupid! I am reminded of how the Russians were fed lies and propaganda
just before the Bolsheviks took over in 1917. All of a sudden, it was too late.

A pissed off DoctorBill

Man o Man I’m up in northern of Chicago you can’t buy gas less than $4.15 a gallon today. When I get done with the boathouse roof, its show time the XFI comes out of winter storage. I would up the maintenance on anything above 40 mpg the 1.0L is worth its weight in gold or Saudi scalps right now.

The government turned a blind eye and deaf ear like they were paid to do and let this oil mess potential hovel our country. Republican and Democrats sold us out. Chicago news media said oil is forecast above $200 per gallon and gas $6-$8 a gallon in the next 12-24 months. There is a 2 year wait for Smart cars. I’m a firm believer in the strengths of a capitalistic economy but not a rigged sellout like we have.

The oil companies like Exxon and European counterparts BP, Shell and the others, are opportunists just setting back scraping profits from the religious based Saudi economic attack on us. Saudis under pressure from their religious and cultural constituents in occupied countries are putting a damper on our economy. As the Notre Dame model shows as economy slows so does a countries ability to conduct warfare activates. Like we did in the cold war with USSR. Our Republican and democratic elected managers befriended these guys now they want us to give them another chance in November? We need to demand better leaders.

I admire the 1.0L gang like the resistance. I was just reading that oil futures are replacing gold in some wealthy investor’s portfolios. Add this to the increasing world demand for oils in developing countries, and economic warfare and a declining dollar this could be more than a price adjustment and last for some time. If it goes away quick it’s another short term patch that will fall apart again later. I think we are really ignorant people as a whole so keeping the 1.0L well maintained for extended service may be a wise move.

I was just reading about the burst and coast method or driving the 1.0L and seeing how I could modify and incorporate it into my commute it things get out of hand. When markets become unbalanced there is always the risk of fuel rationing.
http://metrompg.com/

Oh, Lord are you right about many of the things you said, but one really strikes
home - "I think we are really ignorant people as a whole...".

My college Chemistry Students are so incredibly naive as to border on being babies.

One wonders if they think at all about anything at all......and They vote!

The Current Senate Judiciary Committee "Hearings" points out just how totally
ignorant our so called "Leaders" are.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_9351447

I listen to exerpts of the some of the Senator's questions and I wonder if the
United States can survive such Rampant Jerkism...

One woman Senator, Maxine Waters, interrupted a Chevron Exec who was attempting to educate
her on who we have to buy oil from because we are not allowed to drill our own oil due to Liberal Environmentalist rules...
How can Gasoline be $2 a gallon when Crude is $120 a barrel up from $40?
Oil Corporations don't sell the Crude - they have to buy it!

She said that "And guess what this liberal would be all about? This liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh,
would be about basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."

The word is "Nationalize" dearie, not Socialize....

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/05/22/video-maxine-waters-threatens-to-nationalize-americas-oil-industry/

Can you imagine the Government running our Oil and Gasoline production?!
Hillary, Obama, McCain, Kennedy, Schumer, Dean......all those smart people administering the bureaucrat clerks?

We are becoming what we defeated in the Soviet Union!

These meat brained stuffed shirt Congressional Lightweights don't even understand
basic economics!

I hope that all this price rise in Gasoline and Diesel Fuel brings out the unbridled
ignorance of our Congress.

It is beginning to show now as the House Judiciary Committee meat brains each
grab a microphone and show all of us what complete morons they really are.

They have NOTHING to contribute except more rules and taxation - they are clueless.

We are leaderless in a world full of aggressive nuclear nations wanting what we have built up
and predatory, barbarian, religious crazies beating on the gates.

DoctorBill

Hello Dr.B and Six Seas. I would like to keep this thread alive and back on track. I have been looking into ethanol as a fuel sourse for a bit. Actually on and off for a few years. In fact I will be doing some more research next month . :wink:

Dr. B you got me interested in a posible Hyrogen solution.

For a bit on my projects right now. I have an EFI 1L. motor to rebuild and then can use that as a test platform. I personally only have a 1.8 mile round trip commute (toyota tercel). Gas milage means nothing to me personally. I only use 15 gallons every 2.5 months. The geo motor is going to go in a hovercraft that I will be building. I have a '97 T-Bird that hit 232,000 and needs a re-build. I would like to run that on an alterative fuel.

I have also looked into compressed air driven Wankel motors, diesel using used oil, Really coll stuff using RF of Platinum getting water to seperate H&O which is supposed to be feasible as far as lossless energy.

Has anyone tried a hydrogen booster, one turning water into hydrogen?


http://waterpoweredcar.com/hydrobooster.html


http://www.the-gas-saver-connection.com/index.html

this is a repost from another thread but it is somewhat relevent.

coincidently, i just heard a report that a recent world bank report shows how ethanol production has driven up gas prices.

of course a metro can run on ethanol or combo with ethanol. good grief ... engines have run on powdered coal too if i remember correctly.

i'm in the elec conversion camp. ..... and bill was right to indirectly mention that gross heat / chemical accumulation will be the limit of engine use in the biosphere.

.... a modest proposal .....

hi woodmen,

very interested in this thread and thanks .... couldn't link to the 75mpg ref????

i've been messing about with elec conversions lately ....anticipating a jump into major debt to install a large solar array in the yard. still trying to make up my mind whether to do that or pay off my mortgage more rapidly.

anyway, i've converted a 1939 sears roebuck walk behind garden tractor to battery power and continue to use it as an experimental platform. i use harbor freight parts .... pushing the beast with a 1/2" angle drill that has wonderful torque, powered by a 10 year old marine battery going through a 2000 watt inverter. it does very well! i use a simple hf 'router controller' for speed control.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...1_P1010666.jpg (http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii86/redelrio/battractor080531_P1010666.jpg)

i also power a 32" rototiller of about the same vintage with the same system. it ran for more than an hour and still wasn't slowing down in quite difficult conditions.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...iller-5-08.jpg (http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii86/redelrio/battery-powered-tiller-5-08.jpg)

i've fastened a 9" angle grinder .... high rpm and decent torque .... to an old mower deck and built a very simple string trimmer disc for the cutter underneath. it's doing 22" fairly easily and i plan on potentially ganging 3 cutters for a relatively inexpensive 60" cutting swath.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...-080626-P1.jpg (http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii86/redelrio/elec-string-mower-080626-P1.jpg)

aside from being fun and useful in my situation, these are also tests building toward the possible metro conversion. what i'd like all you very capable folks to consider is my latest plan to make a power pack to plug into the reciever hitch, or a modified version, of any car (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/#). it would have batteries, controller and motor on the 'trailer' ... which could be one or two wheeled ..... and would allow folks to have a 'hybrid' without so much fuss. it obviously would need a control system going to the driver's position. this is a sweet transitional conversion until elec cars become ubiquitous and 'cheap'. it bypasses the complexities of the extant hybrids and still allows the 'backup' properties of the unaltered existing gas engine for emergencies and longer trips. it also puts all the additional weight on the new drive wheel/s and doesn't require boosting the suspension of the driven vehicle. on the downside, it does add substantial driven weight, though the power pack could easily be removed as needed, but this is specifically for short hauls ... 20-30 miles? ... which are the great majority of our trips ... and in my case would just about eliminate less efficient (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/#) direct fossil foolish burning.

another benefit is that the existing heating and ac systems are intact for winter and summer.

'scuffing' of the trailer tire/s is a bit of an issue and i've considered a dynamically cambering suspension which would be similar to the action of a motorcycle drive (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/#) wheel on turns .... or a swiveling dolly wheel.

down the line, simply removing the existing engine / trans / fuel tank makes a lighter, fully electric conversion if desired. i've considered a 'puller' v 'pusher' for a 'front wheel drive' version. lots of good design problems!

my 91 metro has 320k on it and still gets 40mpg. it's worn out and i need to rebuild or replace and still consider using it for an elec only conversion.
Last edited by redpepe : 07-02-2008 at 10:12 AM.

Wow, pepe, you've really got some interesting stuff going on. :)

I was actually thinking about "hybridizing" a Metro too. I wondered, and maybe someone could figure it out where I can't - let's say you attach 4 magnets to each half-shaft, or to the rear axle, so they are physically balanced with each other. Grab a couple of ignition coils from a junker, place one coil (or other coiled or bundled copper wire) someplace (the brackets attaching the control arms, for example?) in proximity to each set of magnets and run a couple
wires from the coils to an extra battery. Then hook an electric motor into the system via a switch or a relay connected through to the TPS. Use the TPS to control activation of the electric motor - when the throttle's open enough, the electrics kick in and the motor could either boost the drive wheels, or make the car a 4-wheel drive by boosting the rear wheels instead.

I don't know how much energy you could generate from the magnets/coil, but since it works for an alternator, I would think you could get a pretty decent amount going.

Alternatively, what if you took the alternator itself off, then plugged all this funky hookup into the regular battery with an old voltage regulator somewhere in the circuit? That might save a little extra fuel by not putting the engine to work as a generator.

Lastly - I always thought the Civilization games' idea was great, having satellites collect the solar energy and fire it down to generating stations as microwave lasers. I read somewhere that DARPA or some other gov't agency has funded some work creating a prototype of one of these energy generators as a way to provide the military with a steady power supply in areas where it's hard to get supplies in.

I think that we really need to put a bunch of different technologies and changes into effect. Lighter cars and trikes such as the tri-magnum http://www.rqriley.com/tri-mag.html would be great for local family commutes and trips. BUT.... driving a car like that on the same roads as 18 wheelers would be dangerous. high winds and whatnot. The XR-3 will be a future project of mine. solar power won't work in many places.
I'm off to work now. Love to keep this going though.

In Geo country we get sidetracked but we always get to the end of the road with fuel to spare. You have the best adaptation to the rough fuel markets if you can minimize the amount you use. Unfortunately my life style is spread out somewhat so I have to cross 2150 miles of interstate so I’m at the mercy of the sheet guys with their greedy hands on the oil pump valve.

I like the Hovercraft idea I’m looking at one for Baja as a commuter around border traffic and north of Chicago I can get a nice home on an island but to make it a year round house I would have to cross the lake in late fall and early spring with broken ice so hovercraft is the only way to go. I would think the power to weight ratio and reliability would make the 1.0L a natural for hovercraft use. Since the 1.0L isn’t popular as a marine engine it may be hard to find flash suppressors if you need them for USCG approval. I’m in the process of looking at hovercraft closer but the small ones have trouble in waves over 3 feet which could limit it for me off shore. If you want to go diesel the in the early 80s Chebby Chevette had a very nice Isuzu diesel dream engine 45 mpg but was heavy as I recall.

By my limited knowledge I think the main problem in ethanol fuel conversion as I recall is the fuel lines and maybe tank. I think the Flexi fuel cars have stainless steel lines. In considering a conversion you may be able to vary your gas /ethanol mixture depending on what’s available.

However it has been my experience that unless you consume allot it can cause more problems to do an all out conversion. For example you could create problems that are hard and expensive to fix harm sensors your computer uses to run the car. Though straight ethanol has the advantage if you go down along the road you could always put a siphon in the tank pull out some glasses and throw an instant party.

Man there are allot of good ideas here. I think the electric conversion has allot of merit due to the Geos light weight. The hydrogen has me wondering hydrogen would increase the amount of fuel available it has to be produced and stored so it will require compression and hardware. It doent look all that hard to produce. I wonder what the effect of increasing oxygen alone would allow the fuel to burned more efficent it may extract more energy form the same amount of fuel. The only trouble is with it may wipe out the O2 sensor or chamber temperature may run to hot for the design. I think the higher octane fuels burn slower as I recall.

thanks for the replies and ideas. i can not do exotic experiments on my budget. i can do 'off the shelf' modifications with a few twists.

targeted pricing strategies with defacto subsidies generated by ever greater competition for limited resources will either bring out the best in us .... or continue to bring out the guns. we may make conversions / adaptations for our own benefit but the greater challenge is to organize pollitically for cooperative elimination of carbon fuels and major reconstrucion of infrastructure and economic structures. that there are still 'free market' snake oilers shearing sheep attests to the old stock traders' phrase .... 'nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the american public'. while that is too specific and narrow and rather overstated, the social and conceptual inertia is glacial, numbing and i think terminal.

that said ..... i'm still trying to walk through my mistakes rather than wasting thousands of dollars.

a decent electric conversion currently costs $5-15k plus labor. if it works, a hitch added power pack could reduce the labor significantly and there could be lower modification costs but these will probably be eaten up by the trailer drive hardware. the xr3 uses a similar configuration. a retro fit version could help.

weight is important but for short haul situations it is not the limiting factor. we metrophiles have safely lived among the 18 wheelers for a long time. electric vehicles are potentially rockets.

an efficient fuel engine is still important for long trips and backup. adding oxygen alone makes a lean mix and destroys longevity. a heat / carnot cycle engine is 30plus % efficient max.

keep those imaginations alive!

The answer is obvious....enslave hundreds of Guinea Pigs under the hood and
make them run a treadmill....

Feed them garbage and if any die, cook and serve them for dinner.

There will be no easy solution.

The world population count is now 6,706,992,932 human beings all wanting everything
they can get - and NOW ! .....damn it all!
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/popclockworld.html

China and India now want the goodies that we've had. Huge populations!

If Africa gets off it's butt and they stop killing each other, they will start using resources
also - then there is Latin America.

Then we have morons, running the government, who's foremost thoughts are for
their own profit and bennies - not for those whom they represent.

Then we have the complete idealistic types just out of college who think they
can make the world run "as it should run" and who screw up everything that they touch.

Nice forecast for the future. WAR.

DoctorBill the realist.

SixSeas.. Here is a hovercraft link for you
http://members.aol.com/sevtec/sev/skmr.html
I'm pretty much broke all the time so I am always looking for cheaper ways to do/own things. Flash suppressor?(no..I promised my wife no built in weapons on the hovercraft) Adding cold air increases HP (Ram Air) Usually it seems HP and efficiency don't go together. Alot of cars are de-tuned to make them more efficient.

Redpepe..Dr.B mentioned the use of drano and water to release hydrogen. That will be a cheap experiment. I know I'll play around with it. Of course I was going to do a distillation of water experiment anyway. Infact I tried,but I have an electronic battery charger and it won't run if it isn't hooked to a battery.
Dr.B...Population doubles about every 80 years. At some point there will be nothing left. Changes really need to be made on an indvidual basis. What works for you may not work for me. My wifes mini-van can take e-85 so..I started looking at brewing again.

Night all
Freefall

hi freefall and bill,

ff .... the point of that detuning was significantly the life of the engine and parts. drano is not the answer ... as if there was a single 'the answer' ... bill is correct with that emphasis. the social production of energy v individual is the political and conceptual issue in this case but it requires comprehensive and historical analysis. i admire your experimental efforts and i do many myself since i've chosen a simple, low monied lifestyle. hydrogen will be in the mix of our systems some way. one of my first public installations in the early 70's was a piece called 'hydrogen economy'.

you're both right about population but the consequences and causes of attendant problems are not well served by 'sound bite' analysis. as you may guess, i'm in the camp that says birth rates change / reduce generally as social [not simply 'individual'] realizations of material security increase life expectancies. the implication of this is that the most likely way to generally enjoy the rich earth is to be sure that everyone, no matter what their ideological bent, is well fed, housed, informed and cared for. this is how you all would treat your families and i always ask that we take that ethic and apply it universally.

fear mongering for economic benefit and social control is the most effective political tool in the propagandists' armamentarium. our willing promotions of 'wedge issues' and black and white generalizations amounts to carrying the water for exactly the folks who many on this list seem to object to.

bill's clever variations on jonathan swift's 1729 essay, 'a modest proposal' ..... kill 'em and eat 'em .... contains the hobbesian projection of leviathan and the 'red of tooth and claw' concept of nature. 'threats' projected instrumentally about population and the 'unwashed masses' have been used for a very long time. the barbarians are at the gate? i'm more of a pogo fan .... for those too young to remember .... 'we have met the enemy, and he is us'.

returning to metros .... if you all had a simple little plug in, trailer mounted, electric 'pusher' that would horse ['cart before the horse' in this case] your car down the road respectably and safely, would you use it? would it work?

guns or butter ..... or do we continue to imperially demand the whole pie?

...as you may guess, i'm in the camp that says birth rates change / reduce generally as social
[not simply 'individual'] realizations of material security increase life expectancies.
the implication of this is that the most likely way to generally enjoy the rich earth is to be sure
that everyone, no matter what their ideological bent, is well fed, housed, informed and cared for.
this is how you all would treat your families and i always ask that we take that ethic and apply it universally.
- redpepe

Sounds good....except when we are in such "good times," we all go out and reproduce like mice.

That's why, right now, we have 6.7 Billions of us on this 3rd Rock from the Sun.

BILLIONS..... this is exactly what bacteria do in a bottle containing growth media.

What will it be like when there are 13,000,000,000 of us all living on the same space?

That is just 2x from now. One doubling time.

Instead of "Carbon Credits", we should have "Offspring Credits".....each couple can have one kid only.
If you don't want kids, sell the OC on the market for as much as the market will bear (pun intended)...

The Chinese have all our money - they'd pay a premium price for your OC...
You could live like a King - just no kids for you. Snip, snip...permanently.

Draconian? It will get worse - quickly. Something needs to be done and soon.
WAR tends to cull the herd - can't we do something less Draconian than war?

DoctorBill

The geometric increases in worldwide population and its following unavoidable wave of consumption will escalate rapidly. More people demanding an ever increasing piece of a fixed supply of non renewable resources, doesn’t draw a pretty picture.

No matter what any weasel breath politician says the lives of many people today will change dramatically. For those of us in this country, with a government that allows a situation where we are virtually enslaved by a foreign nation states resources really stacks the odds against us. Right decisions by our rulers are important. In 1958 the Republic of Mexico outlawed cannibalism practiced along the east shore of the Sea of Cortez. They may have wiped out a lifestyle free of energy shocks; a cannibal riding a donkey cares nothing about rising food and energy prices. Today there is critical 40% shortage of diesel and gas in Northern Mexico.

I think life will get hard for all but a small group. The small group will not be the doers but mere students of one simple lesson, how to trick, rig and manipulate our economy, to squeeze more goods and services out of people without insulting the working population.

The current energy shock looks like it will create a demand for fuel efficient cars and after a time lag while manufactures retool from gas guzzlers to sippers. But now the Saudis are free to command another round of increases to $10 maybe $20 or more per gallon in the near future. Same old game different day.

We are enjoying the 1.0L technological advantage today only because we made the decision to conserve resources while our government and peers took off like mad men, credit cards in hand, hoping to buy their place in Disney world. We lowered our level of energy consumption relative to our peers and it lessened the impact of the oil shock on our lives. Well hunting season opened and Donald duck is running, so the guzzlers are in trouble again, at least in the short run. Electric and alternative fuel investigation today may be the key to maintaining a decent lifestyle tomorrow, because free men don’t have to beg the master for oil.

No...free men will have to beg the Master for electricity - which is made from
burning Coal (mostly). ----- Pollution! The price per gallon will translate into
higher fuel costs for electricity ($$) than it is/was for gasoline!

The Environmentalists, who mentally live several ceturies ago, won't allow the
Congress to allow more Nuclear Plants be built or to drill our own Oil (so we have to pay
Foreign Masters for Oil).

Point is - we MUST have energy for 7 Billion people DEMANDING IT !

Screw global warming - China and India will demand power.
They won't listen to our neat little arguements about the environment! Ha!

Our own people, freezing to death in winter, will demand the fuel or power.

Dying humans won't listen to the reasoning of Environmentalists....they'll kill them.

Neither will starving people.

WAR.

......then it gets worse....

As the old saying goes

"First you die. Then you go to Hell."

I added this last part....

"Then you burn.....forever."

Given the nature of humans under stress, we ain't seen nothin' yet!

DoctorBill

Don't anyone give me that "you are a negative person!" garbage.
We are in for some really bad times - and soon!
Seven Billion folks all "pissed off and bitter" isn't something to scoff at.

yes i agree we're in for bad times ...... and the whys and hows need to be on everyone's minds.

while i always approve of skepticism .... less so of cynicism ..... i'm not sure there's enough time left before we vindictively burn to address all the half truths and generalizations mentioned above.

sticking to population .... the simplified assertions reflect a lack of detailed concern not typical of bill's metro endeavors for instance. you'll find that there are actually declines in birth rates, contrary to claims, but the important thing is to recognize the specific conditions that affect trends and constituant groups. here's a brief, not definitive, paper on population demographics:

http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/english/beyond/global/chapter3.html

digressing ..... then you also might initially consider 'depletion allowences' for those poor besieged oil companies. what? they have them already? and so forth through the littany of accounting scams that produce the claimed 4% roi? profit? nonsense. i wonder who else thinks the oil companies are working in their [meaning the folks on this list] best interest and simply need to be freed from evil guvmint so that they can serve us better?

here's a good history of oil with a few laughs included:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5267640865741878159

Here is the truth about oil, and it all makes sense once you break through the matrix of lies, and deception.


http://www.reformation.org/energy-non-crisis.html

thanks woodmen,

rushing out the door but a quick survey suggests to me some illogical claims again.

for instance, even if we did have 'unlimited oil', burning it at the current growing rate would soon instead run us out of air.

this is too quick ... maybe later.

just mowed the lawn with my homegrown 22" elec string mower. it didn't miss a beat. if i'm doing this right, i figure it drew between 5 and 10 amps @120v. that = about 600w - 1200w. it takes an hour plus ..... so @$.16 per kwh., it cost between $.12 and $.19. my gas mower would have used from 1/2 to 1 gal. for that time of operation .... so $2 - $4.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii86/redelrio/elec-string-mower-080626-P1.jpg

times 52 wks per year. ......

if the mower system proves reliable, i'll switch it to inverted battery power like the tractor.

Dr. B here is a link to a possible outcome of global warming.
http://zfacts.com/p/190.html

redpepe A drano experiment need not be involving running a car. Simply flowing some into a lawnmower as boost will show a premise. Simple things used as building blocks. after that try cutting off the gas supply and keep it going on hydrogen.

good link ... the 'thc' goes all around the world and if i remember correctly can take 10 to 100 years to make the circuit ..... barring bungling interferences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation

whoops .... it says the oldest waters may take 1600 years for a round trip!

re drano .... right you are. i do prep experiments and tests all the time ... and the battery conversions are leading to the probable metro conversion / hybridization. i'm less interested in producing more power in a given engine ..... prefer long life. i've been convinced for 40 years ..... hydrogen in the pipes v nat gas sounds like a good plan. compressed air / liquid air, flywheels, springs, etc .... all appeal to me.

for the curious ..... here are some very early 20th cent electric tractors .... amazing what we've done.

http://www.bungartz.nl/elektra.html

I don't like ethanol think it's a waste of time. Electric cars and Bio Diesel

etahanol is a disasterous hoax .... along with 'offsets'. haven't read the report but world bank says it's contributed to fuel price rise. 'cap and trade' schemes seem like a distraction from serious solutions too.

It is all about CONTROLL, and destruction of America.
Look at Nikola Tesla's discoveries.
Until they controll water we wont have cars runing on it............

an optimistic vision perhaps ......


Envisioning a World of $200-a-Barrel Oil

by Martin Zimmerman

Los Angeles Times (June 28 2008)

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-oil28-2008jun28,0,5485259.story

What I'm saying with ethanol is if you made what you needed in your backyard with just a few hours a week work and saved $2-3 a gallon then your doing pretty good for yourself.

I haven't seen anything on adverse effect on greenhouse gasses using it. If someone has a link can you post it. I don't think it's effects on rubber and plastic are relevent anymore. If they are making cars to run on e-85 they are using better materials. Also someone mentioned inefficiency of the burn. I'd like to know more about that as well.

redpepe I have you beat my lot is so small(crowd shouts out how small is it). I buy .5 gallon of gas a year to mow my front,side and back yards. lol

thanks ff,

ethanol burns very cleanly. atmospheric pollutions can be produced by particular methods of burning. at higher temperatures and pressures, oxides of nitrogen are produced in greater quantities and forms. some of the early low compression engines did much better re nitrogen issues than our contemporary designs. also i believe some of them got better average mileage than our current cafe standards require! [but remember, according to many .... the oil / car corps don't run / manage evil guvmint and need to be unfettered for our benefit]. it's the collective limits that must ultimately concern us.

a friend got an alcohol license and used homegrown jerusalem artichokes [and many other things] for fodder. he's exceptionally capable and yet had limited success. keep at it!

i admire all individual creative efforts ...... the work of simply surviving in a self defeating, dog eat dog culture is purposefully belittled and/or cynically made 'heroic' but supported only with cheap talk while demanding ever more of a cut by the comfortable class. the promotion of 'lifting yourselves by your own bootstraps' is the height of such cynicism. we survive on the bent shoulders of the collective efforts of billions of struggling workers .... not nominal 'giants'.

re small plot .... think of all the money you could save by going electric! .... kidding mostly. even though there are mountains of consumptive 'waste' all around us, it sounds like it's going to be tough to find enough carb / sugar in your yard to make much alcohol and if not available there, then the transport and gathering uses more energy than produced perhaps?

everyone's situation is different and that's one of the places we [yes, me too] get into political trouble .... making ill considered generalizations for all .... instead of recognizing the work and participation required to make a nimble and responsive and equity seeking, principled government. note that participation is only possible for those with the time to do the homework ..... and thus to have an actual democracy, requires that [B]all have the means to live adequately.

i currently keep the lawn in a few spots for coolness and weed / dust suppression ...... and in the orchard for weed suppression and nitrogen fixing self fertilization and as a cushion for falling fruit. i only harvest windfalls and have tree ripened fruits for much of the year. in case you missed it, the rototiller is planned for replacing some lawn with crops .....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii86/redelrio/battery-powered-tiller-5-08.jpg

here's a link to george monbiot's writing ... always good for 'big picture' and backyard.... this on cap and trade / offsets ....

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2008/07/01/green-lifeline/

Man is that interesting got so many ideas to work on like that lawn mower and cultivator. And what I could do if I had a hovercraft going you wouldnt believe. Im ready to run out and toss the old Briggs and Straton 12hp in the lake get a couple car starters and batteries and turn the lawn tractor into a electric 4x4 with motors on each wheel. If I fire up the still behind the garage Ill have enough Ethanol to throw a party and drive around all weekend too. TGIF

hey there sixseas,

all those prospects sound good to me. go for it. i forget if i mentioned that i want to gang 3 of those 22" string trimmers into a deck .... an electric 60" mower.

i use a c motors because they are so available in forms and range of torques. i use a 2000w inverter that seems to be holding up ok.

anyway, in case you missed it, ....

i've converted a 1939 sears roebuck walk behind garden tractor to battery power and continue to use it as an experimental platform. i use harbor freight parts .... pushing the beast with a 1/2" angle drill that has wonderful torque, powered by a 10 year old marine battery going through a 2000 watt inverter. it does very well! i use a simple hf 'router controller' for speed control.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...1_P1010666.jpg (http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii86/redelrio/battractor080531_P1010666.jpg)

g.e. made electric garden tractors decades ago and i think i've seen some 4 wheeler conversons though not a motor at each wheel yet.

the best home made wine i've had was in british columbia .... made from parsnips ... and then there was the 'tripple run' plum!

... and let's do some metros while we're at it.

That is an excellent attempt to covert away from relying on the Saudis. Just keep the inverter away from the Ethanol stash or it could mean the end of civilization as we know it today. I still think this most recent round of assaults on our economy are foreign driven attempts to dilute our ability to conduct extended warfare against their fellow sheetheads. There is also a growing consensus oil demand in the short run will outstrip supply faster than we think forcing governments to ration. China with its phenomenal growth and rapidly modernizing military just raised subsidized fuel costs, like rising fuel costs in this country when cost reaches a point $5, $10, or maybe $12 demand drops giving the overall same numerical effect as rationing albeit a potentially more unfair system given the large disparity of wealth and need.

It appears absolutely essential to work around this looming problem. It may play out like in the 1970s fuel problem and again they may mask the problem but it will be back as long as we rely on a foreign power for what we need to survive.

San Diego Union: “A growing chorus of economists and market analysts warns that prices could hit $7 a gallon by 2010. Some even say prices could shoot to $12 to $15 a gallon by 2013. Gregory Clark, who heads the economics department at the University of California Davis, estimated that if gas hits $15 per gallon, the American standard of living would decline 11 percent.” Maybe Mr. Gates lifestyle will decline 11% but it would make life very tough for many of us. This may create a new class of can go out for a ride and a group that can’t event think about it. I think thats why keeping the 1.0L in race car condition, and looking for alternative sources for electric and fuel is so important right now. If you look at how FEMA and our government handled New Orleans we may be in for a wild ride.

Wow the anti electric vehicle predictions in this thread have aged TERRIBLY :smokin: