PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

One of the oldest tricks in the book is that if you use a lower temp thermostat you can get more power. Using a higher temp thermostat will give you more MPG.

Auto manufacturers go to great lengths to ensure PROPER fuel heating. Fuel lines are insulated so the fuel doesn't boil on the way, but once its introduced to the intake manifold, they go to great lengths to heat it up. Most manifolds not only include water passages, but exhaust crossovers. They specifically use 1500+ degree heat to warm up the intake.

Yes, they're free energy devices, much like a windmill is a free energy device. You don't put anything into a windmill to make it work. Magnets are constantly doing work. Stick a piece of paper to a steel roof with a magnet. It will hold the paper there, altough work is defined by force x distance, clearly the paper would fall were there no magnet holding it there, so the lack of distance moved due to gravity is work. If you don't believe that, hold the same piece of paper there all day, I bet your arm gets tired. Resonant frequencies can do all sorts of strange stuff, like shatter glass with no physical contact. It can also block a magnetic field. This is all what I've been told, and have not seen it work, so have fun tearing me apart over this :rolleyes:

Ok, I will have fun :)

A windmill is NOT a free energy device. A windmill simply takes advantage of existing energy dynamics in the universe. Energy is being expended to create that wind, the windmill simply recaptures a tiny fraction of it. To imply that windmills make "free" energy from nothing is a gross violation of the law of conservation of energy. If you think you can disprove something that was proven nearly 500 years ago, then you are far more intelligent than the millions of scientists who have lived since then.

Also, magnets CANNOT provide any work. They provide force. Work is is energy expended. Magnets are simply static attraction.

Listen, guys... I mean NO offense, but you are dealing with several highly educated engineering minds here on this forum, and the examples you use to show your understanding of the topics are remedial at best. I think you can trust us that (at our level of expertise) we can safely say that its just not possible. You need to stop listening to the idealistic propoganda that is playing to your heartstrings.

At the risk of "outing" myself, I am a registered Libertarian Polyamorist with Hippie tendencies who is currently under the learned wing of a psychic. If anyone on this planet would believe in this BS, its me. Unfortuately for them, I am very educated and have realized that they are playing to the 99% of the world who doesn't "get it."

My advice to you Kiwi is to spend some time "getting it."

A windmill is NOT a free energy device.

you are dealing with several highly educated engineering minds here on this forum,
. I think you can trust us that (at our level of expertise) we can safely say that its just not possible.
, I am very educated and have realized ."

My advice to you Kiwi is to spend some time "getting it."

Minus the cost to purchase and maintain a windmill. I am pretty sure we don't pay cash money for the wind to drive the windmill. (aka "free" energy) Which is more then likely what J-Ri was talking about...

You put yourself on a mighty high pedestal there, If your all that smart why wasn't this train wreck thread closed a LONG time ago?

You mean J-Ri there Mr. smarty pants????

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


(:evillol: I had to. :evillol: )

Minus the cost to purchase and maintain a windmill. I am pretty sure we don't pay cash money for the wind to drive the windmill. (aka "free" energy) Which is more then likely what J-Ri was talking about...
True, but in the context of this type of conversation I assumed we were discussing the existential type of free energy, not the kind that is free of financial encumberances. But it should be clarified, I was speaking of the existential type

You put yourself on a mighty high pedestal there, If your all that smart why wasn't this train wreck thread closed a LONG time ago?
If I close the thread, how can I demonstrate how high my pedestal is :) Just kidding. I sorta lashed out because its frustrating trying to explain things for which you were educated 8 years to someone who doesn't understand the very fundamentals of the physics involved. Its no one's fault, and he has proven intelligence and understanding on many topics, but it might just be that he studied art history or literature instead of physics and engineering. I don't mean to condescend, simply point out that there is a wealth of knowledge here from multiple sources.

You mean J-Ri there Mr. smarty pants????

D'oh! :uhoh: Why do I constantly confuse them in this thread? A general apology to you both. Maybe I'm not as educated as I think :icon16:

Minus the cost to purchase and maintain a windmill. I am pretty sure we don't pay cash money for the wind to drive the windmill. (aka "free" energy) Which is more then likely what J-Ri was talking about...

When people like Dennis Lee use the term "Free Energy Device" it's because they don't like calling them "Perpetual Motion" Machines.
Quite different to "free" as didn't have to pay money for it.

For Mr Lee it's probably working, all his energy costs (and more) are paid for by other people. The people who buy his snake gas machinery.:wink:

True, but in the context of this type of conversation I assumed we were discussing the existential type of free energy, not the kind that is free of financial encumberances..
My bad, I actually read his post this time. I still think it could go either way.
It seemed to me the thread was getting to be more about the argument (for the sake of argument) and less about the original topic, so I wasn't paying close attention. :wink:

Seriously, What could be in this "device" that makes J-Ri get better mileage? I doubt its all in his head. I know its never going to get 200 mpg, what could account for his 5 to 6 mpg increase? Thats the part I am intrested in, not all the BS claims made by the company...
I doubt he would keep the car in bad enough shape that adding air to the tires, a tune up and air filter would make that up....or dumb enough to think it was the device he installed that made the mpg go up after doing those repairs...
Maybe they put some chemical in it to further the illusion rediculous mpg's are possible? Something that gives a little mpg so they can take a lot (of peoples money)

Seriously, What could be in this "device" that makes J-Ri get better mileage? I doubt its all in his head. I know its never going to get 200 mpg, what could account for his 5 to 6 mpg increase?


There is nothing in the devices, or devices that do anything to improve millage.

It is all in his head, or his bad test methods.
Or, the fact that he never bench marked it before adding the device, so no one really knows what is happening.

Standard snake oil sales tactics.

Coupled with the fact that there are no pictures or supporting documents to back up any claims. That happens a lot in the anonymous world of the internet forum; someone tries to add validity to their argument for the product in question by claiming that they've done it, but pictures, documents, and proof rarely show up. Next will be the YouTube links to Fox news videos showing a hydrogen torch that turns a brass ball "instantly as hot as the surface of the sun." Gee, I sure thought that brass would have vaporized at 9940 degrees farenheit, but according to Fox news, it just glows a little red. Then it will show someone who is burning water in his Ford Escort Wagon... but in truth its a supplemental system much like the snake oil we're discussing here. Then you'll see a hillbilly in a dune buggy pouring water in what appears to be a tank then driving off revealing an unmodified VW 1600cc dual port motor with carburetors.

Here, I'll post it for you:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Rb_rDkwGnU

Then you'll see a hillbilly in a dune buggy pouring water in what appears to be a tank then driving off revealing an unmodified VW 1600cc dual port motor with carburetors.

Some turkey here claimed to be able to convert water into fuel, he demonstrated by pouring it into his motorbike and riding around the block. They put an exhaust gas analyser on the bike and it showed CO2 coming out in the normal percentage.

Gee, where's all that carbon coming from?:screwy:

So many things to answer, so I'll answer the ones I remember without reading them again.

Moppie, the reason I posted the cost is that 72chevelleohio had asked. If you feel the price doesn't belong there for whatever reason, you're a moderator and you can edit it out. It's interesting that you keep pointing out how I'm going to break a rule, yet some of your language earlier in this thread (and elsewhere on the forums) violated rules regarding the use of foul language.

Kiwi and Moppie keep saying my testing is flawed. Would one of you please answer HOW it is flawed? Miles driven divided by gallons of fuel used equals miles per gallon, correct?

72chevelleohio was on the right track about what I meant by the windmill providing free energy. Since I havn't seen that work, I'm not going to argue for or against it.

Whoever said something about not wanting to put acid in your car and put electricity to it: First, KOH is a base, not and acid. They are on opposite ends of the Ph scale, although both are corrosive. Second, did you find a way around using a lead-acid battery to crank your engine over in the morning? The acid in there is much more corrosive, and there is much more power flowing through it. Another apparently unlnown secret is that your battery gives off hydrogen too. That's why there's vents in the top, and why idiots sometimes blow them up when improperly connecting jumper cables. Third, it never comes in contact with any part of your car.

Moppie, I did benchmark my fuel usage before and posted it. It was 29 MPG highway. After (so far) the best I've got was 42.5. What I said I didn't test before was my city MPG. My thinking behind this is A) If someone drives mostly in the city, they probably don't drive that far, so the initial cost will probably never pay for the HAFC. B) City driving is constantly different. on trip #1 I may hit every light red while on trip #2 I may hit every one green. There may be a traffic jam on one trip but not the other. By driving at a constant speed on the highway, there is very little chance of me having to slow down or speed up and extended idling is eliminated. Either way, it better reflects the increase in MPG.

Let me ask you geniuses this, I am clearly not as smart as you since I am outnumbered (and I haven't previously stated that I am far superior to you), but can gas mileage be improved? "No" would be a dumb answer, as everything is improved over time. Therefore, "yes" would seem to be the only answer that two or three of you would give. The only qualification on a reply of "yes" would be that we don't have the technology. If everyone just gave up and said "it can't be done", where would we be today? How can any of you stand to give up or not even try just because you've been told that it can't be done?

The bottom line is this: People won't believe this works until they see it work. That's fine, I didn't believe it until I saw it work, and even then I was hesitant to believe it until I made it work on my own car. My advice is this: Don't buy one off the internet. Wait until a shop in your area is installing them, and ask for a demonstration before you pay any money to anyone.

The bottom line is this: People won't believe this works until they see it work. That's fine, I didn't believe it until I saw it work, and even then I was hesitant to believe it until I made it work on my own car. My advice is this: Don't buy one off the internet. Wait until a shop in your area is installing them, and ask for a demonstration before you pay any money to anyone.

I agree whole heartedly, but I must ammend it from my standpoint on this issue. One who doesn't understand the physics behind it may choose to see the benefits they WANT to see, not the actual truth of the situation.

Its kinda like putting an electric fan on a radiator to replace a mechanical one. People just think they're better even though they now overheat on the highway. I can try to explain airflow and heat transfer until I'm blue in the face, but they cling to the fact that electric fans are better because they don't draw as much power and only turn on when they need to. The truth is that (unless heavily researched and lots of money is spent) electric fans pretty much suck. But to the random weekend rodder, they violently defend their choice even though they puke coolant like Paris Hilton after a buffet.

Ah, here comes the rhetoric!

I am amazed it took 5 pages to show up though, very disappointing effort J-Ri.

For those not sure what I am referring too, note that he did not offer a reply to any of the science and fact that clearly show how flawed the magic millage increasing devices are.

Instead the discussion is pointed in another direction, were ideals are thrown about, then the magic devices offered as fulfillment to those ideals, with total disregard for th fact that they don't actually work.

Think of them as the automotive equivalent to communism.
It sounds really good on paper, meets all sorts of ideals, but fails under hard, objective assessment, and it turns out, doesn't, actually work.
(note, this is a rhetorical reply) :lol:

It seemed to me the thread was getting to be more about the argument (for the sake of argument) and less about the original topic,
What did I mean?
I am amazed it took 5 pages to show up though, very disappointing effort J-Ri.

For those not sure what I am referring too, note that he did not offer a reply to any of the science and fact that clearly show how flawed the magic millage increasing devices are.

Instead the discussion is pointed in another direction, were ideals are thrown about, then the magic devices offered as fulfillment to those ideals, with total disregard for th fact that they don't actually work.
Don't I remember reading something on AF that goes "attack the post, not the poster"???? :tongue:

What could be in this "device" that makes J-Ri get better mileage?
To clear that up. No, I don't think it splits molecules or breaks down anything. (or gives 200 mpg etc)
I am looking at this from the scam angle.
I was thinking, instead of working the way they ("they" the company, not J-Ri) claim, maybe they put some chemicals in it? I'm sure there are many things that can be added to the inside of a "box" that when heated gives off fumes. Fumes that the engine could run on. (F*** them piston rings :uhoh: ) There could be just enough in the box to give increased mpg's till the check clears....
I believe J-Ri is getting more mpg's, but not because this thing works as they (again company) claim.
Which brings me to my next question....Emissions tests??? If there is a cocktail of nose candy in that box, what shows up on the emissions test? Has there been one?

Curtis- lack of a sufficiently powerful cooling fan will cause overheating on the highway!?!?

I have NO fan in my Beretta and my Grand Am (somehow the forward motion of the vehicle causes air to flow through the radiator). It burnt up on the Beretta and I removed it from the Grand Am to make room for the HAFC. I will be installing a pusher fan in front of the condenser when I get around to it, but since I do very little city driving, there's really no need to. I have a friend who owns a Suburban w/ a 383 stroker (a 350 bored .030" over and "stroked", for those who don't know) who replaced the mechanical cooling fan with a cheap electric one when a few of the fins broke off the factory fan. It only overheated on him once while offroading, that is to say it would have if he didn't shut it off before the next part of the hill. We were climbing a steep, muddy hill, spining the tires at 40+ MPH while barely moving. My 350 with a mechanical fan was getting pretty close to the red on the same climb.

Moppie- I have better things to do than argue with people about whether or not something works when I have seen it work. Buy one or don't buy one, I don't care. It makes absolutely no difference to me. I'll admit I don't fully understand the science behind how it works but since I have seen it work, I don't care how it works. I only care that it does work.

72chevelleohio- The fuel cell is shipped empty and the instructions state that it should be thouroughly rinsed with distilled water, and that it may be necessary to rinse it again after a few months of service. I don't think there are any secret chemicals in it, but if there are, they do the job. KOH is added to the water which acts as an electrolyte. More current flowing = faster electrolysis of the water. As for lasting until the check clears, I bought mine in October after I saw it work. I had it installed on my Beretta up until the time I swaped it over to my Grand Am, so again I think that's unlikely. It is also made from stainless steel and is TIG welded, I'm sure I could ARC weld some mild steel together and have it last until the check clears. I have not personally tested the emissions. New Jersey (where the company is based) requires emission certification and Dennis Lee, as well as all of his employees, have one installed on their vehicles. They claim the emissions are lowered, which makes sense if you are using less fuel and less air. The TP required to hold my car at 55 MPH droped from 14% to 9% after installing the HAFC, and the fuel used droped significantly. I guess I just figured since they were telling the truth about the HAFC working, they must be telling the truth about everything else. I'll check that out and let y'all know what I find.

Curtis- lack of a sufficiently powerful cooling fan will cause overheating on the highway!?!?

No, you misread. An electric fan (no matter how powerful) sometimes blocks more air than it could potentially flow on the highway. Whereas having no fan typically has a huge surplus of airflow on the highway, an electric slows that airflow considerably because its pancaked to the radiator.

I have NO fan in my Beretta and my Grand Am (somehow the forward motion of the vehicle causes air to flow through the radiator). It burnt up on the Beretta and I removed it from the Grand Am to make room for the HAFC. I will be installing a pusher fan in front of the condenser when I get around to it, but since I do very little city driving, there's really no need to.
In a low-power situation you might be OK with a pusher, but they are by far the least efficient setup.
I have a friend who owns a Suburban w/ a 383 stroker (a 350 bored .030" over and "stroked", for those who don't know) who replaced the mechanical cooling fan with a cheap electric one when a few of the fins broke off the factory fan. It only overheated on him once while offroading, that is to say it would have if he didn't shut it off before the next part of the hill. We were climbing a steep, muddy hill, spining the tires at 40+ MPH while barely moving. My 350 with a mechanical fan was getting pretty close to the red on the same climb.
First of all you're comparing apples to oranges. Secondly the reason you were overheating and he was not is because offroading makes a lot of heat and you're never moving fast enough or revving fast enough to make use of the mechanical fan's best feature. You keep giving pointless examples, but I do know what I'm talking about.... and for cripes sake, get a fan on those cars. :)

No, you misread. An electric fan (no matter how powerful) sometimes blocks more air than it could potentially flow on the highway. Whereas having no fan typically has a huge surplus of airflow on the highway, an electric slows that airflow considerably because its pancaked to the radiator.

Thanks for clearing that up, I was wondering too.

I know one guy who bolted four (yes four) electric fans to his radiator in the hope of curing an overheating problem. That was two pushers and two pullers with no shrouds.:banghead:
Didn't help, but a new radiator with clear cores did.:screwy:

My 4wd runs electric fans, but the great thing about diesels is they don't heat at low speeds offroad. It takes uphill driving in anger (like a skifield in 4th gear) to heat that sucker.

Moppie- I have better things to do than argue with people about whether or not something works when I have seen it work. Buy one or don't buy one, I don't care. It makes absolutely no difference to me. I'll admit I don't fully understand the science behind how it works but since I have seen it work, I don't care how it works. I only care that it does work.



So far we have your belief that you have seen it work, and a whole lot of science that says otherwise.

You keep believing in your flat earth, and I will keep my money.

Curtis- I understand what you meant now, but now you misread what I said :) I was about 240-ish and his topped 260. He had to shut his off to let it cool, while I let mine idle and was back down to 160 within a minute. Here's another pointless example. I went to a drive-up window yesterday and was in line for about 10 minutes after driving 3 miles through the city with the A/C on to get there. I turned the heater on high while I was in line and the temp guage slowly rose to about 250 and then stayed there, so if a blower motor will keep the coolant in the safe zone, do I really need a radiator fan? I do know what you're saying though, there's no way I'd ever use an electric fan on my truck unless it was an add-on for the trans, oil and P/S coolers.

Moppie- This precious science you keep bringing up changes constantly. When I was in elementary school we had 9 planets, there are 8 now. Ironically, your science also thought at one time that that earth was indeed flat. I know you hate hearing it (and somehow I'm an idiot for thinking that the humans can improve), but if all we did was look back and see it couldn't be done and from that conclude that it could never be done, we'd be sitting naked in caves. The simple fact is that this does work.

And I'm still waiting to hear how my testing was flawed.

Curtis- I went to a drive-up window yesterday and was in line for about 10 minutes after driving 3 miles through the city with the A/C on to get there. I turned the heater on high while I was in line and the temp guage slowly rose to about 250 and then stayed there, so if a blower motor will keep the coolant in the safe zone, do I really need a radiator fan?

Absolutely yes. 250 is too hot. I'm surprised you didn't blow a hose or a radiator or boil over. Left too long at temps above 230 can cook oil and cause serious engine damage.

Moppie- This precious science you keep bringing up changes constantly.
Bollocks.
The laws of thermodynamics haven't changed since their inception.
That is 1824 by Sidi Carnot.
Carnot was a very clever man, he also predicted the limiting efficiency of any thermodynamic cycle (Carnot Efficiency). Those laws haven't been broken either.

I should add, everyone who claims to have broken the above laws has turned out to be either stupid or a fraud. Mr Lee is in the second camp, his customers in the first.

Moppie- This precious science you keep bringing up changes constantly. When I was in elementary school we had 9 planets, there are 8 now. Ironically, your science also thought at one time that that earth was indeed flat. I know you hate hearing it (and somehow I'm an idiot for thinking that the humans can improve), but if all we did was look back and see it couldn't be done and from that conclude that it could never be done, we'd be sitting naked in caves. The simple fact is that this does work.



Right, so I think I understand this now.

If I buy one of these devices, the magic inside is only activated if I have enough faith.

Can it be any faith, or does it need to a monotheistic one?

Will the results vary depending on how much faith I have, or is it a constant effect?
For example for regular daily driving is it ok to just have a little faith, and get average results, then have lots and lots of faith for long trips so I can really save on fuel?

Does this also mean I get better millage driving to and from church, and what happens if I have to visit a non-supported faith center, is it possible I could get worse millage than with out the device?

If I run out of faith, is it possible to buy more?

And I'm still waiting to hear how my testing was flawed.

Your in-ability to explain it consistently is a good start.

Absolutely yes. 250 is too hot. I'm surprised you didn't blow a hose or a radiator or boil over. Left too long at temps above 230 can cook oil and cause serious engine damage.

With a 15 PSI radiator cap, 260 is safe for coolant. As far as oil goes, I'm not too concerned about a few minutes a couple times per oil change. As it is, the oil still looks and smells almost new when I drain it.

Moppie- One day you'll see that you are wrong. On topic #1, it's never too late, you can always get one. On topic #2 it will be too late once you find out you were wrong.

Here's some unbiased testing and discussion of a hydrogen generator.:naughty:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=163254
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=218003&page=1

Moppie- One day you'll see that you are wrong. On topic #1, it's never too late, you can always get one. On topic #2 it will be too late once you find out you were wrong.


Will this be before or after Armageddon? :evillol: :evillol: :evillol:

I've seen the "god is my copilot" bumper stickers. Now I'm thinking something like "god is miraculously splitting water molecules in my tank."

"God is my petrol pump" :lol:

Will this be before or after Armageddon? :evillol: :evillol: :evillol:

Well, once Armageddon begins it will be too late, so probably slightly after.

Never used it but I see no way it will work. If you cut off your converters :screwy:would you get the same or better results? I,m calling B.S.