Cylinder Valve Job :)

Well I am doing a valve job on head. Anything I should do on Lower end now?

Oil has not been a problem, nor any smoke, so I am not worried about rings

***hopes***

What do you all use to clean up the engine etc? Outer and pistons etc.

Trying to get rid of old oil leak gunk and of course carbon build-up on pistons.

Hello, First of all do you plan on keeping the rig? If so now's the time to re-ring and replace your rod and main bearings. Just did all that to my 92 xfi. Besides my little episode with the oil restrictor which i fixed with help from the forum. Its all brand new runs like champ. Parts dinosaur fixed me up with the re-ring kit, full gasket set, new oil pump, and the bearings (did not need a new water pump just did that not long ago) for 220.00 delivered right to the house. Get out the digital camera take lots of photos while doing rebuild. They are pretty simple to work on (KEEP THINGS CLEAN). Good Luck!

Use Orange Blast cleaner to clean up the greasy parts.
http://www.glblast.com/products/Products.aspx?ProductId=3

Use Seafoam to clean carbon deposits. soak parts directly in it.

http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUpTech.htm

I did my rings myself....

"NOT the end of my '93 metro...Life after death! RINGS" posted my myself
with pictures and tons of "Blah, blah...."

8/30/2006 to 4/2/2008

My Metro (The Phoenix because it arose from the ashes...) now runs like new
and gets 49 mpg in the summer.

The oil does not turn black even after 3,000 miles with the new rings!

Have a look if you like.

DoctorBill

My understanding from having read other threads including DoctorFrankenstein's Monster thread (:naughty:) http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=613410&highlight=the+end+of+my+%2793+metro

is that if you do the valves, you better do the rings too at the same time or you'll have to pull everything apart again to do them after you start blowing smoke.

Hope this helps!

Well to be honest, I do not know if I can do this myself. I have the fear of messing up the whole block and being left without a running vehicle.

Well to be honest, I do not know if I can do this myself. I have the fear of messing up the whole block and being left without a running vehicle.
YOU gotta figure the car will be down for atleast a week & if your not comfurtable with doing yourself then i would'nt advise taking on a job like this
how many miles on engine??if your in the 100k + then rings would be recemended.GOOD LUCK!!

Hey man, read DOCTORBILL'S thread. You sound just like him when he first thought of tackling this.

A lot of guys here recommend a JDM (Japan Direct) engine swap too. They said they've had good luck with them and for the money, it's easy and probably only a little more expensive. I don't know where you're at but if you're on the west coast, crvett69 might be able to let you know where to buy. If not, maybe check your yellow pages for a JDM dealer.

Well everyone, I think after reading through Dr.B's Thread, I am going to give this a go. I hope you are all ready for my stupid questions...

Thanks,

Mike

Now that is the spirit!! We'll be here. :smokin:

-MechanicMatt

OK....I can't let this go....Doctor Frankenstein (pronounced Fraankensteen!)
has to check in !

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/Frankenstein.jpg

Yes! When I first contemplated doing just the Head, I was scared to death!

So I got the head off and found out it was "simple as pie" and wondered why I was so scared...

Then someone suggested I do the rings too...and then I had the Hershey Squirts!

I had to convince myself that if I didn't do the Rings, that I'd have a junker anyway!

So I just wailed into it and found it was also "simple as pie" - "a piece of cake"...

The biggest hassle was renting a proper cylinder reamer (they are not all the same!)
and then buying a honing tool and ordering the rings and rod bearings and finding out
how to lubricate them during installation (motor oil).

Be careful not to scratch the rod bearing surface on the crankshaft while
taking the pistons out and reinstalling them.

For God's sake - do not wash the cylinders out with water after honing them!
I did that and regretted it!
The crankshaft rod bearing surface will rust in just a few hours if wet!
Mine did! I am still hoping that that won't wreak havoc on my rod bearings in time....

Work on concrete if you can - I worked over dirt & gravel. Jack the vehicle up
high on Jack stands with blocks or logs under the vehicle in case if falls off the
jack stands.
That always had me scared - I imagined myself being crushed...whimp!

Read all the threads on this forum that pertain to Rings and the Head...they help a lot.
Crvett69 was a great help. He knows these engines inside and out.

Getting the pistons back in with the new rings was difficult the first piston, but
as you learn it gets easier.

Yes. I know exactly how you feel. Like sex the first time - only this you won't mess up!
Just use plenty of lubrication and all will slide right into place!

Go slow - think about what you are doing - keep everything CLEAN -
Organize the parts coming out of the block (pistons 1, 2 and 3 parts) - think!

Take digital photos of the parts, where they originated from, etc and if you get
cornfused, you can use the photos to get reoriented. It helped me!

If I did the rings, anybody can do the rings....

DoctorBill (Frankenstien?)

Cylinder is at shop now, new valves, guides, grind, polish etc. What is everything I should order from Parts dinosaur now? for the lower end rebuild?

Mike

Are you going for Stainless Steel exhaust valves at the Head Shop?

Shucks had everything I needed, some had to be ordered (3 days).

Rings ~$50
Connecting Rod Bearings (good idea to replace now also) ~$40
New Head Bolts ~ $30

A set of feeler guages to measure the Ring Clearance to check if your cylinders are
too worn for a standard Ring Set.

A tube of Permatex Anti-Seize compound (!) ~ $5

Buy a "complete gasket set" from the Head Shop - if they will give you a good
deal on it - Mine was ~$50 - includes everything needed to replace the head and
manifold gaskets....

New PCV valve ~$5

Rent a cylinder reamer - ask for a new cutter bit to be installed before accepting it.

Buy a cylinder honing tool (Harbor Freight?)

Buy a ring compressor to re-install the rings.

You can get the old rings out and new ones in without a ring spreading tool - read my thread.

Buy some clean rags!

Keep clean rags and a roll of paper towels around to keep the cylinders and
pistons free
of abrasive dust.

That is all I can think of right now...

DoctorBill

While you have this engine tore down this far, you might want to consider replacing the water pump right away.

Here are the items I plan on replacing. Tell me if you think I will need to do more/less.

Pistons, Rings, Rod Bearings,Main Bearings, Thrust Bearings, Head Bolts, Timing belt, Water Pump, New Valves ( Exhaust only ), Valve Guides, Valve Locks, Valve lifters, Timing belt tensioner bearing, New oil pump, front seal.

Head is done, valve seat grinded, trued.

I am going to pull the oil pan tomorrow and start removing the pistons.

****wish me luck ***

Mike

Will post pictures so you get a good understanding where I am currently at :icon16:

You shouldn't need new pistons unless one is broke.

Well everyone, got the oil pan off. All pistons are out and in their proper bag. Very easy, I actually could push the whole piston out with my finger.

How hard should it be to move the piston while holding the rod?

When I pulled the pan off and took the rod bearing caps off, my pistons moved
almost effortlessly - seemed without friction almost!

However, they did not want to be pushed out the top of the block quite so effortlessly -
due to the ridge at the top which should be reamed away.

It is surprising how little friction the rings have with the cylinder wall.

I used normal rings - didn't need bigger rings because my cylinder walls were
not worn very much at all.

I cleaned all the carbon off the top of the pistons and out of the ring slots.

Don't forget to position the Ring "End Gaps" correctly....
.
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6514/gaprotationdy7.jpg

Sounds like you are well on the way! Congrats!!!

Now keep everything clean (no grit around) especially when putting the new rod
bearings back in.

You will soon have a seemingly new engine and 45 - 50 mpg.

The first start up may scare you - no oil in the pump for a few seconds makes
quite a nasty sound!
You might want to run the starter motor w/o plugs to distribute the oil before
actually running the engine.

Be DAMNED SURE that you don't forget to tighten the Bolt holding the timing
pulley on - like I did! Dumb......

I'm lucky nothing got busted! Had to buy another used Timing Pulley at the wrecking yard.

That really nasty spray paint stripper (Klean-Strip) will clean your pan gasket
surfaces off well. That and a new single edged razor blade or a sharpened wood chisel...

Let it soak for 30 minutes. Don't get it on your skin - it burns! Use it outdoors!

DoctorBill

PS - Are you taking pictures ? For posterior.....

Pictures sure.

Quick question for you though Dr. B....

What did you all replace? I seen Rod Bearings, and rings, what about main and thrust? I don't want to do these if it isn't necessary.

I have no ridge at all :naughty: So I am going to hone cylinders and do ring gap, once that is done, should all be back together in about 4 hours.

I've not worked a lot on 3 cyl man Metros, just my 4 auto. In reading your posts, I don't think you've pulled the engine right? So here's my question for the experts to help you out. Can the crank be pulled from this engine while still in the car? Although I replaced the crank bearings and seals on my engine 5 years ago, I've since read that these parts really don't wear much on the Geo if the engine oil has been replaced at reasonable miles.

Engine is still in car. I am doing this just as Dr. B did.

I just did the Rings and Rod bearings - with the engine in the vehicle.

I was told that I'd have to take the engine out to replace the crankshaft bearings -
which I would not want to fart with....

I am too much of a "meat hands" and much too ignorant for that!

Before I put the rings back onto the pistons, I placed them into the cylinder and
measured the "end gaps" using a Feeler Gauge.

With REGULAR rings, my ring gaps were well within spec, so apparently my cylinder walls
had very little wear after the 157,000 miles on it (assuming no one had done a
ring job prior to me owning it).

My ridge at the top of the cylinder was not very thick. It is possible that I
really didn't need to do that reaming...(?)

I replace my oil and filter at 3,000 miles religiously - like a monk attends prayers!

Just doing that alone, in my opinion, will keep the little bugger running for a
long time.

If a woman drives the vehicle - Watch Out!
Women are notorious for not checking the oil and running it dry or for gozillions of miles
w/o changing it...

So - I had the head done (wish I had had Stainless Steel Exhaust Valves put in for a few dollars more!),
replaced the rings and rod bearings, and the Head Bolts - that's it!

Runs like a dream!

My 5 speed manual transmission makes strange whirring/"grinding" noises when
it is cold out.

I may have to take it out and replace the bearings in the Transmission one summer,
but I'll wait until it is screaming before undertaking that job...

DoctorBill

PS - Every new tool that I bought to do this job, paid for itself right away.

What did I save - $1,000 or more !? No idea....anybody want to chime in ?!

AND - at 46 mpg (average) versus 25 mpg for 'normal' cars, how much does
one save in gasoline at $3.40 / gallon nowadays?

((# miles driven per year)/(Metro's mpg - Reg car's mpg)) x Current Price per gallon = amount saved by rebuilding your Metro

It was worth doing !

Dr. B.

I have ordered my water pump, rod bearings and pistons rings. I will ridge ream it to be safe. Then I will hone the cylinders are get ready for reinstall.

Like I said before my head is done, stainless valves as well.

Once I get the parts I should be able to have this project done in 1 more day :popcorn:

Sounds great.

All I would say is, "Don't rush it. Pay close attention to details. Be careful."

I hope all goes well.

You'll have to time it. Is the Timing Belt old....(?)

Let us know how things go and how she (he?) runs after you are done.

Remember that you need to "break it in" by no high rpms or loads for a couple
of hundred miles.

Change the oil and filter after 100 miles.

DoctorBill

Cylinders are ridged/honed. Just waiting for parts Dinosaur for bearings, rings, pump :)

I guess while I wait... Now would be a good time to clean everything up get gasket surfaces all ready etc.

Thank for the encouragement to do this :runaround:

Mike

When I got the head back from machine shop I noticed that some of my studs are missing from exhaust and intake.. Anyone know the specs of these studs so I can replace?

When I got the head back from machine shop I noticed that some of my studs are missing from exhaust and intake.. Anyone know the specs of these studs so I can replace?

You can pick these up in the "help" section in any autoparts store. They are a common size.

lol, what size?

Don't you think the "Head Shop" should return what you gave them!?

I'd go back and tell them to put the Studs back in!

Holy Molie!

They can't take parts out and not return them - what the Hell ?!

I got a small bag with ALL my parts that they had taken out - including the small
tubing used for registration when replacing the Head.

Don't take that garbage from them !

Just be sure that you didn't remove them....

DoctorBill

I found them. They threw them in a box but they are broken, cut off :(

Hello 94metroxfi and the rest of the crew here. I recently purchased a 1998 Metro with 133,000 miles on it and a dead cylinder. DOCTORBILL's thread is very informative! I will also be taking on this project on my Metro. All parts (labor is mine) is still way less than 2 weeks worth of fillups on my 1995 Chevy 4X4.

I am going to rebuild the head myself. Seems like the exhaust valves are a common issue along with clogged EGR port.

Yes they are.

Good luck on this adventure. Take your time and pay close attention to details.

If you have any questiosn never be afraid to ask :wink:

Well not good. Everything is together... started it up and she smokes like crazy. :(

Don't be discouraged if it's just some smoking for the initial start and run about. How long have you run it? Taken it for a few trips around the block?

-MechanicMatt

Hey!


Yeah, I took it around the block 2 times, and let it run about 30 mins. It seems more whitish than bluw but yet a blue hint. I retorqued the head to 54 lb. ohh well 450.00 usd down the drain :frown:

Let it run gently for 100 miles and then see.

It has to seat the rings and wear the cylinders in after you honed the cylinder walls.

Isn't that the correct jargon, folks?

Change the oil and filter at 100 miles - metal particles from the wearing in.

Don't give up....!

DoctorBill

Don t rush to the wrong conclusions, maby is something you missed, now we are not able to see how good of a job you did honing the cylinders, but it will take around 500 miles for the piston rings to seats also for the new valves so wait a little bit before jumping into the wrong conclusions.
Try to backtrack and make sure you did't forget nothing, like not installing a new PCV valve.
Try to get a new compression reading of the cylinders, it should be higher than the one you had before the job.

What spy1309 said.

Did you measure the bore and pistons? Did you check bore taper while you were in there? Just because there was no ridge, doesn't mean the bore was in tolerance to your pistons.

What oil did you put in there for break-in? Use regular Dinosaur oil for ring break in. Synthetics and additives should be avoided during this period.

Assembly lube can plug up the oil filter. Replace the oil filter right away. If the bypass fails, a plugged filter can starve the engine for oil rather quickly. Junk filters abound out there, and often have big brand names on them. Napa Gold is a Wix filter. It's one of the best. You can get them elsewhere under the Wix name.

I've seen people take perfectly good engines out because of a $3 PCV valve. Slap a new one in there before you do anything else!

Twidget

94metroxfi:

Hey it started up! That's a good thing. Did the shop that did your head work put in new valve seals for you? Take the air filter out and look into the housing. Is there a lot of oil pooled up in there?

Yes, they did the seals. I measured everything and it was all within specs. I am thinking I am leaking some water/antifreeze someplace. so I will need to go look for this leak.

Does it smoke at idle? Does it smoke only going down the road? Was the oil restricter put back into the block before the head went on? Compression test is a real good idea.

-MechanicMatt

Well after about 20 miles, the smoke seems to be going away. I think my town hated me at first. But It seems to have slowed way down. I think in another 50 miles or so, it will stop completly!

What did the smoke smell like? Sometimes you can tell whether its coolant or oil burning buy the smell, at least I can anyway.

When you honed the cylinder walls, you made them rough - oil can get by the rings
while they are still rough and go up into the combustion chamber.

Once the roughness in the cylinder walls wears smooth (apparently rather quickly!)
then the rings will seal off the oil and then - no smoke, high compression,
good combustion, high mpg's.

Have faith!

You now have a Damned Good Engine that may go another 200,000 miles.

That metal wearing off the cylinder walls while they become smooooth....
is now in your oil filter and the oil itself.

Thus the Oil and filter change at 100 miles.

A compression check right now may show 'not so great' and after a 100 miles
'very good' due to the wearing in of the cylinder walls.

Don't stress the engine for maybe 500 miles while the rings wear the cylinder walls
smooth and they match up. "Breaking the engine in"

I think you did it. You made it.

Now you are a "Metroglodyte !" Enjoy driving past the gas stations...!

DoctorBill

I hope your right Dr. B.

Thank you very much. I hope I can help out in this forum as much as everyone has helped me.

Update :

100 Miles :smooch: I changed the oil. Castro Gtx 5W 30. I will run this untill 500 miles. Then I will change it again.

So far so good I think :naughty:

Well........?

How is it running?

Any more smoke?

Miles per gallon?

Compression readings now?

Are you a happy camper?

DoctorBill

Running well. Compression is 202, 204, 202. Great! Mpg was 40 this time, but that had idling involved as well.

No more smoke! Thank god.

I am very happy! Thank you Dr. B. For your step by step, it really helped me out!

Enjoy.....

DoctorBill

Glad it worked out for you. :)

Just curious, how did the oil look when you changed it the first time?

First time it was dark. Second time a little lighter, This oil still looks clean now and has about 900 miles on this change. I will keep you posted.

Also I hit 49 mpg :)